2010-01-02, 09:24 | Link #1981 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
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If we are arguing that the events were the work of humans, then yes, everything that happens should agree with the rules of the real world. Detective's authority only has meaning to people who are aware of the game, and should be a useless concept for justifying real-world events.
Anyway, I'm fairly sure there was no such red truth in episode 5 indicating that Battler was the detective for the first four games. If I missed one, let me know where it was. But I don't really have a problem with assuming he was the detective for games 2-4. The reason I'm hesitant to assume that for episode 1 is that, when the game started, Beatrice had no "opponent" for her "game." In that case, what is the purpose of a "detective" if there are no outside observers, and how can we be so sure it was Battler if Beatrice had not challenged anyone yet? Certainly there are signs that the game exists for Battler's sake, somehow, so it's not impossible that everything was planned ahead from the start, and the episode 1 tea party was just an act. But regardless of that I don't think I should dismiss the possibility that someone else was the detective (there is precedent for this, after all), or that the concept of a "detective" was only first used in episode 2. Actually, never mind. I just found what you were talking about. Knox's 8th, it is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented! Until now, you have been the detective! Was it ever shown that you were not the detective this time, and that you were an observer with a subjective viewpoint?!! Unless it was, you do not have the right to falsify your point of view!! That's a bit different from what you said. While it does suggest that Battler has never not been the detective, it doesn't eliminate the possibility that episode 1 had no detective (or that there was more than one.) |
2010-01-02, 18:39 | Link #1982 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
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lol, has anyone seen this yet, a dubbed version of EP5 intro.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8Axi2ScD5I |
2010-01-02, 22:08 | Link #1983 | |
Senior Member
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Regarding how red text was inapplicable at the trial:
Some metaworld events are a proxy for gameboard events. Red text, or blue text not countered by red text, if introduced in accordance with the Knox rules, becomes binding on the people, especially in such a proxy situation. Quote:
In Episode 3, Eva had been uncertain whether or not she was the culprit. The combination of physical evidence (cigarette) and meta-Battler's blue text blocked piece-Battler or Eva from acting on any beliefs contrary to the Eva-culprit hypothesis; meta-Battler's actions forced piece-Battler from to accuse Eva, and forbid Eva from doubting her own guilt (even to Eva, years later). In episode 5, Natsuhi's metaworld trial directly corresponded to a trial in the parlor. Piece-Battler's unblocked blue claims of a living Kinzo blocked Natsuhi from claiming "Kinzo is dead". Bern's red text, supported by piece-Erika's claims, became binding on everyone in the parlor. Also, piece-Erika knew she was involved in a hoax to force Natsuhi to admit she knew that Kinzo was dead and reveal the location of the body. meta-Erika believed piece-Erika was being completely truthful. (Piece-Erikas precautions amounted to locking down the actions of everyone but Natsuhi while leaving Natsuhi free. Having Eva seal Natsuhi's door would have been a logical action, considering that Eva was suspicious, and would have largely eliminated Natsuhi as a suspect. Then again, Eva could have made the seal and immediately broken it. Also note piece-Erika's repeated "Where is Kinzo?" Meta-Erika, OTOH, was shocked when the problems with piece-Erika's conclusions were revealed, which wouldn't have happened if she'd known that piece-Erika was lying. |
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2010-01-02, 22:21 | Link #1984 |
Just... disturbed.
Join Date: Dec 2009
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I have a ask a question - since Battler's become the Endless Sorcerer, why can't he just rebut Erika with Ushiromiya Natsuhi is not the culprit? I was so confused in Ep5. I didn't know the red needed proof at all, as Beato has never actually bothered using it with proof. It seemed more like a premise description to me, so I really don't know how it became different in Ep5.
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2010-01-02, 22:23 | Link #1985 | |
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Quote:
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2010-01-02, 23:08 | Link #1987 |
[E]
Join Date: Mar 2008
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He did something similar to that with the gold anyway.
But first, to get this out of my systemFurudo Erika dies in all games prior to this one, she drowns while falling off the boat, only a miracle can save her from that. Too bad that my theory on the kakera system means that is very likely that she will continue surviving now, just like what happens with the new worlds opened in rei. |
2010-01-03, 00:34 | Link #1988 |
Just... disturbed.
Join Date: Dec 2009
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EP5 utterly confused me. But I still trust Ryuukishi to explain everything in due time. After all, this was the person who created Higurashi, and while at EP5 or 6 of Higurashi it was confusing too, though less since Higurashi had direct answer arcs.
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2010-01-03, 13:00 | Link #1991 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
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What is your opinion about the modificaction made to the knox rules by r7?
Umineko Knox rule 2 Original knox rule 2 2. All supernaural or preternatural agencies are ruled out as a matter of course. Umineko knox rule 9 Original knox rule 9 9. The stupid friend of the detective, the Watson, must not conceal any thoughts which pass through his mind; his intelligence must be slightly, but very slightly, below that of the average reader. |
2010-01-03, 13:52 | Link #1992 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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After finishing Episode 5, all I can say is my poor, poor Natsuhi-oba san. :'(
I actually teared up when Failkastel was so cruel as to bring Natsuhi's last shred of pride down like that. And the whole sexual intimacy with Kinzo? Natsuhi is far too dignified and refined! And yes, if you can't tell, Natsuhi is my favorite character.
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2010-01-03, 13:52 | Link #1993 | |
I know we have bread!
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Chicago
Age: 40
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Quote:
R7's point is simply that you should assume that he really did follow the rules of a traditional mystery, fantastic distractions included. Last edited by TeeHee; 2010-01-03 at 13:53. Reason: snipped |
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2010-01-03, 14:19 | Link #1995 |
Naysayer?Fanboy?Wiseacre?
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I finished it two days ago, I am still taking my time reading this thread but I want to ask something. What's up with Erika and her swimsuit? Do people really take their swimsuits on cruises in October in that area? Seems fishy to me.
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2010-01-03, 14:20 | Link #1996 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Warwick, RI
Age: 41
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I think Klash answered this a few pages ago, but the capitalized words are ones that she put emphasis on in Japanese by using "desu" after them. It's her speech pattern, but it's possible some of those words are something we should be paying attention to.
Maybe if there's a miracle involved ... |
2010-01-03, 14:40 | Link #1997 |
do you know ベアトリーチェ様?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 36
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It's not "desu", but the use of katakana. She ends sentences with them. (However, since she does end most of her sentences with "desu", it's often what turns to katakana.)
If Chiru was animated, the effect would be completely lost. |
2010-01-03, 16:41 | Link #2000 | |
[E]
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Quote:
Also, something that interests me is what would have happened with erika's seals should natsuhi not be the one who broke them, but rather, any otehr adult/servant/child. Were they really setup specially for natsuhi ? or were they just general seals that would have caughtthe most suspicious person regardless of that being natsuhi or not ? |
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