2009-04-16, 10:44 | Link #2002 |
ANTI-Nonsense
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More proof that Nano-verse is a Super Robot show of the old school. Professor arkhangelsk, you really should give up. I applaud you for fighting to the bitter end, but it's kinda hard to argue sense in a Super Robot show that argues Friendship and Family through FIREPOWER.
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2009-04-16, 11:06 | Link #2003 | ||
Adeptus Animus
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Like Jimmy said, I just consider it realistic for Nanoha to have enough energy to blow her way through the AMF rich Cradle, create and supply scouts with energy, and hold off Vivio at the same time. |
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2009-04-16, 11:07 | Link #2004 | |||
Truth Martyr
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So since this is what's happening... LET'S KICK REASON TO THE CURB!!! SCREW PHYSICS! Yes, I am mocking arkh. This is also a ref to the Jenova's Witnesses comic of VG Cats.
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2009-04-16, 11:15 | Link #2005 | |
Adeptus Animus
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2009-04-16, 11:26 | Link #2006 |
Truth Martyr
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Like I said, this stopped being about analysis a long time ago. This is about belief.
Thought versus thought, will versus will, point versus point, belief versus belief... Almost like Archer vs Shirou in UBW, although that was admittedly more epic than this farce that is Magitech. This should be the Mathnova's Evangelisation Thread. I note that the professor hasn't been able to pull this shit in the SW fandom because nobody there will let him evangelise. *shrug*
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2009-04-16, 14:12 | Link #2007 |
Sword Wielding Penguin
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Goose, something I'd like to point out, is that while I do agree with your sentiments on Arkh at times, what you're doing every time you throw up like what you did two posts up is essentially FlameBait.
Taking Potshots at Arkh every other post is unacceptable behavior whether he desserves it or not. Were it me, you'd be taking a one-week vacation right now until you learned to Cool Your Head a Bit... ~_~ "Crossfire... shoot." You better chill before someone randomly checks in and decides to agree with me. |
2009-04-16, 19:17 | Link #2008 | |||||||
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Further, while observations may force us to accept unrealistic capabilities or processes, IMO there is no need to deliberately pick the less realistic option in the canonically valid zone. It is akin to insisting that Nanoha does not have an ordinary stomach, but a matter annihilation plant where the stomach is supposed to be. Quote:
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Besides, even if there IS a significant difference, why can't Teana just be playing with breast pads (it says something about Teana, but write the creators, not me)? Heck, this is actually one of the EASIER things to do with magic - just put a conformal barrier (for the appropriate softness) on top of the breasts, and shape it the way you want it to be - you can even change it second by second, or it'll change a bit autonomously depending on your body and mental condition if you don't watch out. Since she's canonically an illusionist, she can even make it look like a real breast and not a pad or a glowing mass (not that we can really check on this point because MGLN is not a hentai and thus the breasts are never fully exposed). It even doubles as a bit of protection! (In this scenario, BTW, Teana's true breast size would probably be the smallest of the measurements, since "adding" is easier than "subtracting". Technically it can be smaller than that, but for the sake of minimizing expenditure conservatism favors it being just "the smallest of the observed measurements"). Quote:
Strike Witches fandom? Not only am I not particularly interested ... where is it? Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2009-04-17 at 00:43. |
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2009-04-17, 01:30 | Link #2009 | |
Truth Martyr
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Thus, whatever "discussions" that occur are inherently pointless. You ever try talking to a Jehovah's Witness? Same frustrations. My perspective, as is the perspective of most people in OCT, is that of a writer. I just poke a bit and try to figure out how things work so that I can use them. Arkh on the other hand, is taking things too far - and to what benefit? He doesn't write. He doesn't use any of this shit. It's all evangelism, belief and intellectual one-upmanship. Besides, it's true that he doesn't have any qualifications in this field. Hence why I take everything he calculates with a pinch of salt. As well as everything he translates, but then, after 1 year of office politics, backstabbing, being the butt monkey of my sempai (until they quit en masse)and generally dodging shit and managing to get promoted by sheer guts, determination and hard work, I take everything with a pinch of salt. Even TVC and RaAd and Insert schedules. @arkh: No case to answer, o Witnessing Professor. I reject your interpretation and substitute my own. (All apologies to Mythbusters for paraphrasing Adam's line.)
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2009-04-17 at 01:40. |
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2009-04-17, 01:42 | Link #2010 | ||||
Adeptus Animus
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They are clearly passing the outer layer of the Field here. Quote:
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You, however, have nothing but your own theories to support your claim, and dodge every of my requests for canon backup. Quote:
Also, that scene is a nice example of why voice lock doesn't work for anime. The entire scene is blatantly slow motion, and yet we hear Ginga's voice. Right. I'll get back to you on that one. |
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2009-04-17, 04:18 | Link #2011 | |
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Furthermore, whether the AMF was shipwide or limited to the sections the intruders were in, that doesn't change the fact that Nanoha was maintaining a two-way remote link to her scout spheres. Regardless of how much magic she had to output to support W.A.S due to the scale of the AMF, she also had to supply more magic for the spheres to be able to report back to her. Or do you want to tell me that the spheres don't have to punch through the AMF surrounding Nanoha to send their reports back to her? Therefore the AMF being shipwide and Nanoha having enough magic output to operate in it sounds simpler and realistic than your ideas. |
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2009-04-17, 04:45 | Link #2012 | ||||||||
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Strange, I see the same sequence and I conclude that they were descending and suddenly the AMF snapped on, and we see the startup “flare”. If they were descending through the “bubble” of an extant field, we would see ripples emanating from their bodies. Instead, we see ripples from all directions coming towards them. Quote:
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2009-04-17, 05:16 | Link #2013 |
Secret Society BLANKET
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We may not be in OCT anymore, but the points remains the same: There is a difference between "healthy" "analysis" of the magic and tech in Nanoha, and then there is overanalysis that simply further complicates matters - there's things like Teana explaining how her Variable Shoot works so that people can understand how it can penetrate AMF, and then there's stuff like trying to numerically quantify the strength, power, density and effectiveness of that spell under conditions that the anime itself never even bothers to visit, as an example.
The issue here is this: real world observations are being imposed on a world that ISN'T real, and doesn't follow the conventions of the real world. Nobody's saying that logic and reason should be thrown out, but it's always best to remember that in a discussion regarding the technology and magic of a storyverse names MAGICAL Girl Lyrical Nanoha, that there is a LIMIT to how much of "our reality" can be applied to the situations presented in a show that's inherently unrealistic (hence why most of us cringe at all the framerate speed observations - animation is such an imperfect and inconsistent medium that frame rates is hardly ever used by anyone else as objective speed guages). The fact that the Nanohaverse actually bothered to provide scientific inspiration and pseudo-scientific explanations to all its various technomagical aspects is icing to the cake, making it unique from many other magical girl shows and giving us nice thought fodder (the reason this thread was created in the first place). But it's still secondary to story, plot, rule of cool, animation limits and other things that do not exactly comply 100% to situations in the real world. There are times when one simply has to take what is shown in the storyverse and say "this is how they say it happens, thus that's how it is". If you're playing in someone else's sandbox, it is best to play the game by their rules.
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2009-04-17, 08:00 | Link #2015 | ||
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Further, generally, given that Theory A requires a Capability of A and Theory B requires a Capability of 10A, Theory B had better have some really good things in its favor if it wants to be even marginally competitive. Since the ability is observed and not stated, its justification is entirely dependent on it being the minimum required to achieve the observed result. In a case where a Character only needs Capability A to do the job using Theory A, the justified level of capability based on the event is Capability A, not 10A. If anything, it is your side that needs all the data you listed up above, just to prove that Theory B that uses 10A is executable at all, let alone that Theory B is a better idea. Quote:
Besides, even if the spheres have to "punch" through AMF, it seems pretty obvious that all else (such as AMF concentration) being even, punching through say 5m of AMF that directly surrounds Nanoha is a h*ll of a lot easier than punching through 500m of AMF that is between Nanoha and her little scout round. |
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2009-04-17, 08:58 | Link #2016 | ||||||
Adeptus Animus
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Though they're much easier to see in the earlier version: Quote:
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Meanwhile, I make the same observation. I see people crash through walls as well. Then I explain that observation with my theory (Barrier Jackets must have protected them). Now here comes the critical point, and this is where you hit a dead end. You don't have any support validating your theory. I, on the other hand, have plenty. Nanoha's explanation, similar situations happening in A's on earth, Teana and Vice considering Auto Barriers abundant protection for traffic, the various booklet articles detailing that Barrier Jackets are more then simply pieces of cloth and so on and so on. And the same thing is the case in our current discussion. You only give us theories, but you never give us proof. You make the observation (the scout round is floating around unaffected by AMF) and then throw in your theory (I guess the AMF must be off then) but beyond that you give us no support. Where was it said to have been turned off? Where was it shown? Quote:
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Edit: A closer inspection of the scene showed that the reason everything seemed to move so slow was because I wasn't paying enough attention to the background, which was moving quite rapidly. My mistake. That still does not change my above point though. Voice locking works in live-action due to the nature of the medium. Even framerate calculation can be said to be more doable in live-action (though I'd still place my questionmarks at calling them accurate). Anime, however, is not live-action. It's animation. In animation the very nature of the media is such that slow motion and real audio are much more blendable. Quote:
Last edited by Keroko; 2009-04-17 at 10:08. |
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2009-04-17, 09:46 | Link #2017 | ||||
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I consider "She has enough power to pull it off" to be adequate. Consider the complexity of your argument: Just because you refuse to allow the possibility that Nanoha has enough magic output to operate remote scout spells throughout a shipwide AMF, you insist that the Cradle must be using some kind of selective AMF generator that only activates when Nanoha is in a room. Wouldn't it be easier to just flood the whole ship with an AMF? That way, you don't need to know where she is on the ship, her ability to fight will be hindered. The latter is simpler, is it not? Also, note that the AMF wasn't even strong enough to prevent her from flying and fighting. Why would it be strong enough to break her links with her scouts? Quote:
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2009-04-17, 10:11 | Link #2018 | |||||||||
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Try those frames right before. It is extremely clear that the Y-axis (vertical) ))(( (concave) waves came first. Only after the scene cut do you see any of Nanoha's (()) (convex). So, the field was just starting up. If the field started up earlier, we'll expect to see the ))(( crisscrossing as a diagonal.
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2009-04-17, 10:34 | Link #2019 | |||||
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Remember also that the Cradle's original purpose is not to fight off Nanoha. Originally, there was also a human crew, presumably most of which are magic users. (That's why the system doesn't immediately start off by using its "Killer-AMF" mode which would have ended the whole thing in a hurry. Sure, they are trained to work with AMF so they aren't shafted as much as hypothetical untrained boarders, but that doesn't mean they aren't hurt by it. So, it is obvious that a selective AMF system will allow preparations and other work to be done in as yet uncontested compartments. A AMF system that cannot be selective is like a Halon Fire Suppression system that can only flood the whole ship with gas. Quote:
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The rounds wouldn't dissolve as long as Nanoha kept them supplied with magic, which she did, despite the AMF. Quote:
Another way of limiting the expenditure of little magical round is if it doesn't communicate until it finds a big contact. It is a reasonable strategy - they MUST know by now Quattro has substantial EW capability, and not having it constantly squawk out "radio signals" is going to keep that little round covert from Quattro longer. |
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2009-04-17, 10:48 | Link #2020 | ||||||
Truth Martyr
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Ultimately, everything in here is interpretation. Nothing more, nothing less. Any attempts to pretend otherwise are pretentious. At least you agree that this is all pointless. Quote:
Besides, I don't see you abandoning your perspective when you foray into other threads - why should we be any different? Do as I say, not do as I do? Quote:
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2009-04-17 at 11:50. |
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