2013-08-20, 15:23 | Link #32841 | |
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Note that there is also the fact that Rosa knows Kuwadorian exists and roughly where it is, yet she still believed it possible to just run, and she wasn't even running in the right direction. This would seem to suggest she didn't accurately know the extent of the threat, which in turn would posit she didn't solve the epitaph or if she did, nobody appeared to tell her everything. More likely she didn't (or was cutting a deal for the answer to make it look like she did) and was working as an accomplice.
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2013-08-20, 16:05 | Link #32843 | ||||||||
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2013-08-20, 16:22 | Link #32844 | |
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Show us where Van Dine's rules are explicitly stated to be applicable to Beatrice's games, when Dlanor won't even make the assertion that her games conform to Knox when asked in ep5. Explain the distinction between the brooch and mention of a secret heir and the revelation of '67 Beatrice and the treatment of Kanon and all of that other stuff which is more or less the same degree of foreshadowing. Demonstrate that Beatrice is not actively determining victimhood by showing how the First Twilight occurs absent her agency. Contextualize the payment boxes of ep4 without pre-planned accomplices. Fantasy scenes still ground in reality in displaying some more important meaning. If the meaning of the ep2 midnight chapel scene is meant to relate to Rosa's activities, why then does it not give her anything of the sort of distinguish her from the other adults? Why is Beatrice the prominent figure? What is being said here? The meaning of the knock scene is clear in the subsequent use of red to remove the possibility of a knock existing; it is proof of a mutual lie and suggestive of a large conspiracy to present false information to Natsuhi.
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2013-08-20, 16:54 | Link #32845 | |
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2013-08-20, 16:58 | Link #32846 | ||||
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2013-08-20, 20:34 | Link #32847 | |||
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Concerning the Flauros discussion, she is technically the same as Gaap as well as the Chiesters or Zepar and Furfur concerning that she personifies both a concept and an item. She is the explosion that rips apart the study in the Confession plot and her vessel are the explosives. Quote:
A certain element of distortion is important in most mysteries and as long as a character is introduced early on but alluded to even through apparently unconnected parts in the story, it would be the readers goal to make that connection. Technically the mention of the possibility of a "secret heir" is the introduction of a character, be it a dead one or a living one. Also Beatrice in EP3 mentions that it is her who inherited all the gold from Kinzo, there is mention of her being the "master of the mansion at night", the servants never addressing their "master" by name. Quote:
And yes, she would have stopped if anybody found the gold, which is shown by EP7. This is certification that somebody else continued the murders in EP3. Who that person is is yours to choose, I think it was Nanjo, others think it was Eva, again others blame Kyrie (though that is pretty much ruled out by the EP8 manga), yet it is made very clear, even on the fantasy-plane, that it is not Beatrice/Yasu continuing the murders. In EP2 on the other hand it can only be her. |
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2013-08-21, 08:33 | Link #32848 |
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Doesn't the ep 8 manga make it reasonably clear that Yasu killed Nanjo in ep 3? I thought everyone else was ruled out?
As for the rule about servants, I often wondered if what Ryu was getting at is that Kannon and Shannon WEREN'T the killers. In a personality construct thing, Shannon would never kill George, and Kanon would never kill Jessica. So even when they survive after these people's deaths, it is because they did not and would not commit the crime, and it is not their plot (though them also truly not being servants is also possible under this interpretation, they are technically masters). I know it's awfully wanky, but that isn't exactly evidence against Ryu doing it. Also yeah, I probably oversold how seductive Bice would be in that scenario (that is more like Black-Bice), but that doesn't mean they didn't mutually create a way for them to live together, and decide that it needed the gold. A whirlwind offer of "if we take the gold, we can live together" is still possible. Cat-box. |
2013-08-21, 09:08 | Link #32849 | |
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It creates a scenario where "Kanon" would never kill Jessica, but is perfectly content to allow "Beatrice" to do it. Or where both "Shannon" and "Kanon" are willing to die to deceive everyone in order to permit "Beatrice" to go on killing. And note this totally does happen for both their supposed loved ones, including twice to George. One could argue for a multiple personalities deal and that Shannon and Kanon wouldn't voluntarily commit these acts, but I'm not sure you can actually back that up as it appears that they must either be willing accomplices or simply all the actions of a single will that is not in any way divided or insane, which I think is the only explanation that gets us to the answer of ep3 the way Will/Yasu saw it. As an author this essentially means that Beatrice is caught in something of a lie. It's true that Shannon and Kanon won't do certain things, but they're just characters being acted out by the board killer who is entirely capable of doing all of those things even though they know that the servant characters would object to them. The notion of Kanon's struggles being useless is basically literal: Even if Kanon wouldn't do what the board killer wants, "Beatrice" can make him complicit because the true face wants to commit the murders. Essentially, it's Shannon and Kanon's unwillingness that's the act. This seems a reversal from reality though, where Yasu's conflicting feelings and attachment to the people she cares for are the truth and "the culprit" is the mask. The Beatrice of the boards is not the same person as her creator at all.
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2013-08-21, 09:49 | Link #32851 | |
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It's true nothing killed Kanon, because the person didn't die, but Beatrice allowed Kanon to essentially be "eliminated" as a character. He may have had willingly complicit people in his fakery (for example he could've made up a line to Jessica, or simply had Nanjo lie to everyone), but the purpose of his death doesn't actually resist Beatrice; it assists her. In other words, Kanon "taking a stand" against the witch ultimately only helps her and the whole thing comes across as entirely planned on the culprit's part. So I doubt seriously it was a personality issue as if Kanon had such a distinct personality he wouldn't willingly participate in the fakery. In short, Kanon is just an act and the culprit can "eliminate" him if she wishes, but she does so in conformity with how Kanon "would" behave. It's not all that different from the fantasy narrative Beatrice weaves in to make Shannon and Kanon more noble in defense of their loves, something that clearly didn't happen in Turn because it was Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice who murdered them. I doubt seriously the killer was struggling with actual personalities opposed to the murder.
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2013-08-21, 09:53 | Link #32852 | |
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2013-08-21, 10:20 | Link #32853 | |
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When it comes to a possible EP3 Nanjo-culprit theory it basically goes like this: After all servants have "died" in the first twilight Nanjo seems fairly sure that he can secure a larger part of the cake for himself but also knows that nobody would take him seriously anyway (basically the "Forgery of Purple Truth" plot). Why were Rosa and Maria murdered without the usage of guns? Because the culprit at that point did not possess a gun, which is also the reason why Rosa did not consider shooting. The fourth to sixth twilight is actually the one that's most questionable, but also not impossible for him. Hideyoshi was likely killed in the struggle with Kyrie and Rudolph though. Nanjo was actually the one who probably knew that George left and was the one who was "convinced that the witch did it". It is unlikely that Eva killed George and other people have alibis. He could have snuck out and killed him out of fear of being found out. The strangulation of Natsuhi and Krauss could also be explained by the culprit not having a gun. In the end Yasu takes revenge on Nanjo by shooting him at point range. The fact that the stakes were used also highly speaks against Eva being the culprit, but it is likely that Nanjo would know where the stakes are. Of course this could also all be explained with lovesick, insane Yasu theory. |
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2013-08-21, 10:42 | Link #32854 |
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The only issue I'd take with that is... Nanjo, really? He's a doughy older man who isn't known for being physically strong. While it's possible he could in fact kill Rosa in a surprise attack (it's not like Rosa wouldn't let him get close, she has no reason to fear him) and I don't have any objection to his being able to kill Maria, Krauss is a big guy and there's no clear indication as to how Nanjo might have incapacitated both he and Natsuhi in such a way as to allow him time to kill them both.
If Krauss were conscious, I doubt Nanjo could kill him without a weapon. If Krauss were somehow rendered unconscious prior to death, how did Nanjo do it and when? The only way I could really see this working is if Nanjo basically sedated both of them first, then dragged them somewhere they wouldn't be found immediately and strangled them out. Nearly anything that would require Nanjo to straight-up fight people seems implausible, to say the least, so he would have to surprise, trick, or otherwise deal with people in an underhanded manner. Neat idea though. Although it makes me wonder why he wouldn't have tried anything with Jessica when "treating" her. Seems like it would've been an ideal time to kill her off, and she's basically helpless. Or was he perhaps planning to do it and just never got around to it on account of getting shot? And if he was surprised by Yasu, does that mean he just assumed the First Twilight to be real? Isn't "confirming" the deaths practically his whole job as an accomplice?
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2013-08-22, 04:57 | Link #32855 | ||||
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Nanjo makes a hell lot of sense and actually makes his last sentence a lot more poignant. "No, please, I have a sick granddaughter...that is why I need all the money!!" Quote:
If it actually was Nanjo, it would be Nanjo culprit, interpreted as Eva culprit in the framework of Yasu culprit, disguised as Beatrice culprit. |
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2013-08-22, 05:10 | Link #32856 |
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I'm not sure how valid this theory is, but I wonder if the "Kanon would never" "Shannon would never" also has something to do with the fact that as far as I know, Shannon and Kanon have never outlived their love interests. Yasu is a single mind controlling Kanon, but Kanon is a defined being with a certain personality. If Yasu kills Jessica, then Yasu has done something Kanon would never do, and can never claim to be acting as Kanon again. Yasu basically kills and shuts the door on that personality.
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2013-08-22, 05:20 | Link #32857 | |||||
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Erika's testimony: "...we walked out of the archive into the hallway at 1:00 AM. When we did, we just happened to bump into Rosa as she returned." Tee-hee. Quote:
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2013-08-22, 08:25 | Link #32859 | ||
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As far as I know nothing says Natsuhi could never have fired, only that the bullet that killed her wasn't from her own gun. Basically she and Beatrice just had to fire at the same time (to create a single sound), but Beatrice was in no danger because Natsuhi didn't have real bullets. This also explains pretty much that entire ending bit, obviously, and also allows Natsuhi to not be an accomplice (if the gun wasn't loaded she'd probably notice that). Quote:
If Nanjo is aware that Beatrice is alive, he takes a big risk murdering anyone because he has no idea where Beatrice is and how much she's seen. Now his thought process could certainly be "she can't show herself because she's supposed to be dead, so if I'm careful I can kill everybody and she won't be able to prove it's me." But that still makes dragging Krauss and Natsuhi outside or killing Rosa and Maria outside a bad plan. Killing people inside, where others are, would prevent Beatrice from just stumbling upon the corpses and realizing someone is continuing the murders, and at some point he'd narrow down the suspect pool enough that she'd be on to him. She's unaccounted-for and unaccountable. She could pop up at literally any time, probably armed with a weapon (as she knows where they are), and shut him down exactly the way she apparently does in ep3. Why didn't Nanjo consider this? Or if he did, why was he so sure he'd get away with it? Sure, if he believed she was dead maybe, but that means he didn't check... and he's the doctor. I mean granted he's a terrible doctor, but even so.
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2013-08-22, 14:37 | Link #32860 | ||||
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Now add to that the existence of "Beatrice", and I'm not sure Yasu can be said to control anything so much as s/he's controlled by them. S/he's only seen to surface to ask questions or make accusations. His/her name is convenient to refer to the 'one of many' collective, but there's no evidence s/he takes any proactive role in the game; s/he's pretty much resigned himself/herself to chance. It doesn't appear that Beatrice is able to kill George while Shannon is "alive", or Jessica while Kanon is "alive", so has to "kill" those personalities first. The chronology of EP2 4th-6th twilight is kind of sketchy though; between Shannon, George and Gohda, who killed who first? And EP4 2nd twilight; if Shannon called George, did she also meet with him? Why does he have a pretty little headshot instead of a half-demolished skull like everyone else (except Kyrie?) Quote:
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He kept Kinzo alive over a year after he died. That kind of doctor is a miracle worker! Last edited by DokEnkephalin; 2013-08-22 at 14:52. Reason: wrong ep |
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