2015-09-30, 19:20 | Link #35441 | ||
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For example Tohya's version of Banquet contains also Eva's escape to Kuwadorian (which instead we'll read in Alliance). Also, Tohya's tales were, for their form, the closest to the message bottle tales. The message bottle tales are never described as containing something as odd as the meta would be, but just as describing a mysterious and gruesome incident in a way realistic enough if they had included Eva's survival they could have been considered true accounts. The story in the message bottle tales is narrated by Maria... while through the episodes the narrator is often Battler. The manga adds some info to this. Banquet was deliberately written to pin Eva as the culprit and it's said that Tohya will grasp the pain the forgeries caused to Ange only later on, after he had written more than one forgery so at best post Alliance, therefore it wouldn't make sense for him to include it in Banquet or Alliance. In addition the manga tells us that after Sayo died her soul, in the shape of Beatrice and Battler's ended up in the purgatorio (witch's room, meta, whatever), with Battler suffering amnesia. At this point Beatrice began to challenge him to games in hope he would remember, starting with Legend. Tohya can't know what Sayo's soul would do with Battler's soul so he can't include it in his tales. Ange also views her adventure in Ep 3-4-6-8 (and in the other episodes) as an adventure of her soul to find her own path, not as something she read in Tohya's book. But well, feel free to view the episodes as you prefer. Quote:
Think at the number of people on Rokkenjima. If Beatrice hadn't stated that there are no more than 18 people Battler could have assumed that a whole army was hiding in the forest in Rokkenjima. In Ep 5 Knox rules are added. They too help Battler as they remove some possibilities without needing a confirmation in red. For example through Knox we know there are no secret passages so you've to think to a way to get in/out of closed rooms that's different from secret passages. As for the pattern, Beatrice murders following the epitaph. Her techniques involve bribing people, blackmailing people or tricking them into thinking it's a game to do her bidding. Lies are also a recurring plot device. Victims are often killed with a gun. Stakes are just 'decoration', Beatrice shot the person that place in the wound the stake. She varies the accomplices and the method of killing and sometimes she had others do the murders for her. I hope this helps. |
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2015-10-01, 08:29 | Link #35442 | |
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Don't take it badly, but I think it's poorly explained that the meta world is just a different universe apart from the tales. The "endroll" of EP1 sounds like a ending of a book, look, this means the message bottles could be altered by the founder (Tohya). We had no proof that the notebooks weren't released and represented as the true originals. It was definitly shown that (some) meta world scenes are part of "fragments"/tales, ironical in the meta world, too. And including the souls aspect on the game board aka fictional tales makes no sense because Beatrice offered Battler all solutions if he resigned. But it is left to the readers imigination. Maybe Tohya mixed up some things? This is absolutely a plothole. Last edited by Mali; 2015-10-01 at 13:50. Reason: added more |
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2015-10-01, 18:14 | Link #35443 | ||||
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The manga is not rushed in the revealing of the truth and was chosen as a medium by Ryukishi for the revealing of the truth, differently from the anime. Ryukishi stated that the answers the manga gave are the OFFICIAL answers from him, ence they are right. Ryukishi's involvement with the anime was way smaller than the one he had with the manga and it shows as the anime ends up cutting vital infomations to solve the murders and making some murders possible only if you use magic while the same can't be said for the manga which included all the important information, added some and NEVER messed up a murder. Quote:
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If a corrispective of Legend exist in Prime it is, very likely, one of the two messages in the bottle Sayo wrote and that were found later on. However that corrispective of Lengend doesn't match the Legend we read. The message in the bottle was meant to be written from Maria's point of view while actually we read it mostly from Battler's point of view and in the endrolls it ends in third person, describing how a message was found and what was inside it. Also, since it was a message written by Sayo as one of her plans in her murder game it didn't need to contain the meta. Her challenge to Battler was meant to happen in Rokkenjima, not in the purgatorio. It gets even more marked in Ep 2 where there's a huge amount of meta that had no reason to be in a message Sayo would write. Tohya isn't even the founder of the forgeries. Forgeries, as stated also in the VN, existed prior to him starting writing one as people in the net had already started writing them. Tohya is merely one of the most famous, if not the most famous forgery writer not the first one. Quote:
If you go by what the VN implied and the manga pushed forward that Tohya's tales are NOT what we've read (though it's implied they're close enough to the gameboard parts of the tales) there's no plothole. Beatrice, creating the games, can insert fantasy scenes in which it looks as if she's on the gameboard, giving to Battler and to us the impression she's interacting with it... and in a way she is as she's writing it and can change things in it. Tohya's tales (and also the message bottles tales) are described as differing from the ones we read. As they differ from them we can't claim they contain the meta or interaction between the meta and the gameboard. Actually it's more likely they don't contain the meta at all as, if it wasn't for Eva's surviving, the message bottles could have been exchanged for realiztic narrations of what had happened on the island and they didn't need to contain the meta as they were merely plans for Sayo's mystery game in which the battle between her and Battler should have taken place on the real world as the mystery game was going on, not in the meta. |
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2015-10-02, 09:43 | Link #35444 | |||
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Chiru has several statements from characters (on game board) they had to know from the meta world. Left out meta elements and you get your plotholes. Quote:
The question is whether Tohya wanted people to get the Truth by their own or get their own truth. Well, is is shown it seems Battler doesn't want to share his Beatrice... but EP7 lights on "the hard cold truth" again. Quote:
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2015-10-03, 07:56 | Link #35445 | ||||||||||||||||
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Now let's see what's said about the anime: Quote:
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The interview you quoted was given before the anime was finished, ence his involvement might have changed by December... but let's pretend it didn't. The interviews confirm that the anime reduced the amount of info that were given and that ultimately he didn't have full control on the script. The manga ADDED informations. You're basically saying that the manga in its added information isn't right, when we were told over and over that the manga wasn't an individual interpretation but Ryukishi's official answer by comparing it to how the anime had to remove a lot of stuffs, and the removal was not always done by Ryukishi but by other people. The anime was never used to give answers, Ryukishi even suggested that it's better to look at the VN instead than at the anime if you want to solve the mystery. The manga was chosen as the medium to reveal the truth. Quote:
The extra answers in the manga aren't 'adaptations'. They're official answers purposely added by Ryukishi. Quote:
What we don't see is Banquet, Alliance and End written by Tohya (and we don't know if he ever wrote a Dawn, a Requiem and a Twilight). Quote:
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Legend and Turn are meant to be solved with the Sayotrice culprit theory, not with the 'insert name of the adult'-trice culprit theory. Beatrice's purpose is, after all, for Battler to find out her identity, not to pin the blame on someone else. Also Land was a message bottle that was never found. It wasn't a story written by Tohya. Quote:
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Also, when Eva was found alive, they likely discharged the possibility the message bottle was a truthful depiction of how things went (according to Legend Eva died with a stake in her head, her death confirmed by Nanjo and by the other witnessers). Quote:
Later on though he understood through how much pain he pushed Ange and became convinced he had to lay both the Rokkenjima mystery and the truth of that day to rest ence the whole thing with the diary. Quote:
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Way before the manga reached its end members of this message board had figured out that Tohya's tales didn't match with the tales we read just with the VN info... even if back then people still had different theories about what the meta was so as you can see the manga merely confirmed what many had already figured out just by the VN. Last edited by jjblue1; 2015-10-03 at 20:01. |
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2015-10-06, 06:12 | Link #35446 | |||||
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The anime still offers "fun of speculation". It was confirmed by Ryukishi and he didn't confirm the anime is wrong. So crucial informations were present to solve the games (on your own). I believe back in these days Shkanontrice isn't wide known. Quote:
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2015-10-06, 15:05 | Link #35447 | ||||||
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If you've a better translation though I would love to see it. Anyway this doesn't change that in the previous interview dated 2009 he claimed if you want to guess things you'll do better look at the Vn instead than the anime. Quote:
Ence the interview was released at best in July 2009 or prior to it. As you can see an episode released in September 2009 was clearly made after the interview was released. In addition to this in the interview itself Ryukishi says: Quote:
Usually in Japan they don't start releasing the anime after this is completed but while they're still working on the episodes so it's more likely that, by the time Ryukishi released that interview Ryukishi hadn't seen most of the Umineko anime yet because it still didn't exist in its complete form. Quote:
Regardless of what you're meaning though I think we're losing the point of the original discussion. The anime is not the manga. You're trying to push forward the idea that if in the anime it was done a sloppy work, the same must have happened for the manga but the fact that the anime did a sloppy work can't be used as a proof to state that certainly the same happened in the manga. Not only the interview you're using as basis for your thesis was given at best prior to the 5th episode of the anime being released (but likely much earlier) and when the manga hadn't even started releasing Ep 8 but the two are two different media handled by different people. Even if you were to find proof that Ryukishi babystepped the anime from ep 1 to ep 24 and still missed some mistakes this wouldn't work as a proof there are mistakes or whatever else you think there is in the manga. Quote:
You can't grant that something will happen in the future with certain... unless you're Lambda. I'm not sure what you're trying to say with 'crucial informations were present'. Are you trying to imply that the mistake in Ep 11 was crucial information? Or that the anime contained all the crucial informations? Because granting that you can have fun speculating doesn't insure you'll have all the crucial informations. And if Ryukishi himself, even before the anime was completed, is recommending the VN over the anime he likely already knew important informations would be missing (the best case is Alliance were all the investigation Battler does in the Teaparty is removed from the anime). It's confirmed Ryukishi was aware the servants were suspected when Ryukishi released Ep 3 VN version. When the anime started Running Ryukishi was about to release Ep 5, so VN readers had already all the elements to solve the story (we know that the story is solvable just with the first 4 episodes) and some already did. The theory that Shannon & Kanon are the culprits is actually pretty old in Japan, I know someone here mentioned exactly when it started and it was definitely prior to the release of Ep 5 (I can't remember if people also speculated they were a single person). Of course as the VN hadn't confirmed it yet, it wasn't the only one theory. Ryukishi though had already decided on such theory and even explained it to Beatrice's voice actress so she could give a fitting performance. ... however I don't really get what you were trying to say with ShKannon not being widely known. That people would want to try and guess who was the culprit? If that's the case, as said before, Ryukishi recommended trying to go for the VN instead than using just the anime. Quote:
If we go by the 'we don't believe in Ryukishi' tangent, then we can't solve anything. If we don't believe in Ryukishi then we can say he deliberately lied in everything he said and that he lied when he said the game was solvable. As for the wiki: personally I'm not interested in reading fan theories in a wiki. As far as I'm involved a wiki should post information on the series, not on speculations by the fans... (unless it's a wiki specifically done for posting fan speculations) expecially if 'speculations by the fans' means just 'posting one speculation by the fans' over which its supporters can't even agree as I've seen way too many Rosatrice theories. And, said this, I'm also pretty annoyed at how the Umineko wikia reported the ShKannon theory adding here and there speculations (as well as mistakes) in their so called truth page for each episode. Personally I think that yes, if they were to put speculations in the truth pages, they could have also left up the Rosatrice theory. As for me though I wouldn't have put either. In a wikia, if you don't know how something went, the best way is to admit that the truth is unconfirmed. |
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2015-10-07, 05:57 | Link #35448 | |
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Hi jjblue,
I wanted to reply it sooner but I changed my answer. I looked up to look for the source of the interview on 7th exp and Keiya's homepage. and some proper translations of the Acen interview. I failed with that. Well about the anime, you may not feel this because you openly dislike this and read the VN first, it made Umineko in a certain degree popular in the west because youtube videos were more accessable than the VN. Even if it's not well done by Deen. It has still effects on the watchers , but they cannot be blamed for that. "Crucial information" was a bad term I used. If I recall correctly the anime didn't properly intruduced every character. And the mistakes...but these things are a thorn in the eye if you are a fan of Umineko. Q: Why should Ryukishi say such things in the interview? It's odd if he cannot know how the final product will be. Did he just overview the raw script and alpha state? In terms of the Shkannon theory I don't know if animesuki was the core of speculations nor where the theories of the Japanese came from. But wasn't Ryukishi aware of people's theories by looking on the internet? Quote:
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2015-10-07, 11:33 | Link #35449 | ||||
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What likely replied was likely his expectative about how the anime would be as well as his plan on how the anime were supposed to turn. He might have thought that just being involved in the script would be enough. In a way it likely insured that some mistakes were avoided but Ryukishi probably overlooked the power of timing up the scenes correctly and of visuals. Quote:
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Later on it seems he changed his mind and decided that, after leaving people some more time to speculate over things, he would reveal the truth through the manga. Umineko after all is, in a way, a project that also evolved according to the input he received (think at how Land was scrapped and replaced with Banquet). In a way his thinking process in regards with the truth create an interesting parallel with Battler in Ep 8. In the VN version of Ep 8 Battler, instead than telling Ange the truth, proposes her his game, Ange doesn't get his message, things happens, Ange read the book of the one truth and when they meet again Ange had understood everything and was fine with what Battler had done and Battler didn't regret doing it. In the manga version Battler gets reproached by Erika and Beatrice for chosing this method, things happens, Ange read the book of the one truth and when she reaches the Golden Land she'll need Beatrice and the others to help her to understand his message. Battler too will also clear up to her some things. At this point Ange will accept his brother meant well and although she'll claim she would have preferred for him to be more straightforward she will be all right with what he did. If you want the two versions can mirror what Ryukishi thought it would happen after he were to release the VN (everyone will get his purpose after a while without help) and what it truly happened instead (his message resulted too obscure so people needed help to understood it and apprecciate it). |
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2015-10-11, 13:28 | Link #35450 |
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Alright, I've been reading EP5 manga and... what's going on here, I forgot.
I know that we are not shown Erika's POV in EP5 and Battler and Lambda are unreliable narrators but why does not Erika question Shkannon regardless? Manga constantly has panels of Erika being with them in the same goddamn room. I know we're just seeing Lambda's false narrative but this should not matter to Erika, even if we do not see her POV. Is she invested on the Natsuhi hate bandwagon so much that Yasu trolled her this hard? Erika of all people? And if Lambda removed either Shannon or Kanon in the 5th game, Erika would question this new character in EP6, so we do know that at some point she saw them both and acknowledged that they're there. However, in the study for example, where manga depicts Shkannon being together with Erika, there's no way that she would be seeing both of them. One of them is missing and she is silent about this? That's just so un-like Erika.
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2015-10-11, 14:14 | Link #35451 | |
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In fact in Ep 8 is said that she realized the trick when, after Ep 6, she returned to look at Ep 5, but this time she did so from an 'outside perspective'. Due to this she heard that the narration was done by Battler and that it didn't match what she saw with her inside perspective. In Ep 5 Erika, thanks to her inside perspective which is also reliable as she was the detective, knew that Kanon wasn't in the parlour and she was also told that this was because he was preparing the guestroom for her... which clashed with how, once she looked at Ep 5 from the outside, she heard Battler narrating about how Kanon was in the parlour. Erika comments how in Ep 5 she never saw Kanon and Shannon together... yet the narrative described them being present at the same place with her more than once. However, as she was ordered by Bern to tail Natsuhi, during Ep 5 she didn't pay attention to them and to the fact they were never seen together at all. When Erika realized the truth she was quite angry at how she was trolled so thoroughly... |
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2015-10-11, 14:36 | Link #35452 |
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That makes so much sense, thank you.
What information was Erika given in the study? Parlor I understand, but Lambda depicts Shkannon in the study. Oh and what about the red truth that Lambda gave about the count of people during the parlor scene? All this information comes from EP8 manga right? During Battler VS Erika?
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2015-10-11, 15:09 | Link #35453 | |
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[QUOTE=Levani;5676359]That makes so much sense, thank you.
What information was Erika given in the study? Parlor I understand, but Lambda depicts Shkannon in the study. After discussing the parlour scene they don't go into the details of the other scenes. Erika just says each time she was given a different explanation about why Kanon (or Shannon) weren't present and, as she didn't care about them, she just let it slide. Quote:
Yes, during the Battler vs Erika battle we're basically given the solutions of Ep 5 & 6 ShKannon tricks. It's a reading I recommend as it's awesomly done. |
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2015-10-11, 15:31 | Link #35454 | |
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2015-10-12, 06:06 | Link #35455 |
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Sorry for the double post, but do we have a solution for the EP5 knock and letter placement? I was under the impression that there was no knock and Lambda was trolling both Bern and Erika really hard but this red truth...
From the manga official translation : none of them mistook the knock for anything else Japanese : そして、彼らは誰もノック音を誤認しない It implies that knock did happen?
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Last edited by Levani; 2015-10-12 at 07:20. |
2015-10-13, 05:48 | Link #35458 |
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IIRC they say that if Battler had returned a year earlier or later the disaster would not have happened. A year later and Shannon would have already won, married George, and left the island. A year earlier and Kanon and Jessica's relationship would not have really started. It would just be a struggle between Beatrice and Shannon, which is a straight duel, not a deadlock.
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2015-10-21, 07:03 | Link #35459 |
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I do have a few questions, first off, I'm reading episode 8's manga and came across this scene, what's going on here?
Second I am still wondering what Rudolf meant when he stated he would likely be killed in episode one; was he talking about what he was scared Kyrie may do to him once he told her and Battler his secret? Lastly, What did Rudolf even do for his job, same with Kyrie? Rudolf mentions Kyrie frequently fights and can defend herself, Kryie mentions that she had to take care of women who were after woman and Rudolf seems to work with some shady guys. So does he have an actual job, like what business is he in?
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2015-10-21, 12:29 | Link #35460 |
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What do you mean? Rudolf is about to tell Kyrie about Battler in that scene. The scene above is Rudolf having sex with women everywhere.
And same with EP1. That was him just being dramatic (or maybe not). Their specific jobs were never specified. |
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