2010-06-11, 14:44 | Link #10922 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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With Maria though I see her more of getting joy out of keeping secrets and feeling sort of superior because she knows something other people don't. She might also be lying because she's been lied to by Beatrice. This would make the lies she tells unintentional since she thinks what she's saying is the truth when it's really only half true or a bold faced lie. She might also lie to protect what she believes when she can't explain away someone else's argument.
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2010-06-11, 17:28 | Link #10923 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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My first instinct if she said something like "Beatrice turned into gold butterflies and flew through the cracks in the door" is that she is lying. But there exists the possibility that she doesn't think she's lying; she really does think she observed something like that. Doesn't Maria insist that she always tells the truth somewhere in the earlier episodes? I forgot... 8) Anyways, if this is true then if she does see something magic like then we should be immediately suspicious of the people around her. If it always turns out to be the same person (i.e. George or Shannon... ) then technically speaking we have some evidence. |
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2010-06-12, 02:04 | Link #10925 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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I want to add some thoughts I've been having about Kanon lately. Unfortunately not everything has been worked out but I think it's important that I say this now.
I've been thinking back on the lines that there is a Kanon conspiracy in somewhat the same vein as Kinzo and Beatrice. That rather than someone with Dual Identity, we have a conspiracy probably by the servants to pretend he 'exists,' whatever that means. Ok so back in EP4, after Lambdadelta declared that he didn't die in an accident I came up with a list of ways to die: 1. Murder 2. Accident 3. Suicide 4. Natural Death 5. Still Alive So we suspect that Kanon is still alive and walking around in a lot of the episodes. But also there's red text to say that he doesn't exist or is dead or something. Our way of thinking that he can die but still move around is where someone else stops being 'Kanon' and becomes someone else. But then I got to thinking about the Author Theory. Kanon is not a real person. Even if you don't accept the Author Theory, Kanon is still some kind of piece/koma of Beatrice on the gameboard. So can 'characters' die in more ways than real people do? 6. Goes out of character; breaks the 'canon' of the story. ? is this a possibility? So this got me thinking. A conspiracy to pretend that Kanon exists. What if Kanon 'dies' when they decide that he does something grossly out of character? Like in EP1 he kills Nanjo and Kumasawa, kill Jessica in EP2, kill Nanjo in EP3, but come back into character temporarily to save Jessica and.... not sure what happened in EP4 but he died too. In EP5 he didn't do very much but in EP6 he died in the closet. Maybe he did something grossly out of character like rescue Battler or he was sent to kill Erika. If Kanon is like a manipulated puppet, killing for those who deem it necessary (I'm thinking of the servants here... ? or George and Shannon?) then that killing is technically not really what he was meant to do in the first place. Someone appropriated 'him' somehow and killed his 'personality' by making him do bad things. For example if Natsuhi and co. decided to suddenly declare that Kinzo started wearing sunglasses and singing a heavy metal song (*cough*) then Kinzo 'dies' because those lies of theirs just start becoming totally unbelievable. (At least in the game with the other characters. Totally believable on Youtube though. ) Or if Beatrice suddenly turned into a moe-moe love slave for Battler (in EP6)... a rather unbelievable turn of events then she 'dies' too. And some fanciful fantasy scenes are needed to repair the damage. So they all believe Kanon is a good guy; his characterization so far leads us to say that there's no way he would kill Jessica... or kill Kumasawa. Maybe Nanjo. 8) But someone does try to pin the murders on him and so that's why he 'dies.' And of course some fanciful fantasy scenes are needed to repair the damage. Here are some further thoughts. 1. Kanon is called Yoshiya -> Yeshua. He is used as the scapegoat or sacrifice for the sins of others. Someone else is doing the killing but 'Kanon' is being blamed in a collective conspiracy. i.e. in EP2. 2. Kanon is called 'Canon' after all. If you swerve from the agreed upon characterization you've accidently exposed his non-existence. 3. We've had a little discussion about whether Piece-Battler was in character or not by Bernkastel and Dlanor... maybe being in character is important. Anyways, I'm not sure where I'm going with this. At the very least I thought the reveal about him being called 'Yeshua' was a very strong hint that he is some kind of sacrifice. Indeed he DID sacrifice his life and love for Shannon and Battler in EP6. Which is why I theorized that he will remain 'dead' in EP7, like how Sakutarou remains 'alive' in EP6. So.. what if this sacrifice is more than just in the fantasy scenes. Kanon was 'sacrificed' in some way, not physically but... spiritually? emotionally? So.. what do you guys think? I think we can think more on this line... |
2010-06-12, 02:58 | Link #10926 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Basically, if any character on the board makes a decision that "Kanon has executed an illegal operation and will be closed." other characters may not share it, i.e. Kanon may be alive for one character and dead for another one -- and in fact will be until the information propagates across the network. Since nobody ever made two inverse red statements about Kanon's life or death status at an appropriate time, i.e. "Kanon is dead." and "Kanon is not alive.", which would rule out the collectively maintained illusion in any reasonable sense, this approach is still possible -- but you still need to account for the propagation. Also, "In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!" seems to rule out any single character from making that decision, since it would be effectively "killing" him. You have to relegate this decision to the Author, and then Kanon effectively becomes no different from any other character on the board. Characters, as opposed to material people, are bloody resilient creatures, and much harder to kill for good. Another approach is possible, in which Kanon has died well before the game started like Kinzo, and is only a character from then on. Unfortunately, the red "Kanon is dead. Among the five people in Kyrie's group, he was the first to die. In short, he was the 9th victim." makes that problematic, since if Kanon died before the game started, being the chronologically 9th victim would be impossible and we're left with twisting red to fit. There is one interesting loophole, though. Characters do not have to have a body, but they can be embedded in a medium. I.e. if Kanon is a character within a literary work within a game board, for example, written into Maria's diary, he can die if the only copy containing him is eradicated.
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2010-06-12, 04:07 | Link #10929 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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I'm not too hot on this idea either but I feel like Kanon's situation is something very similar to this. We need another analogy or something. The main observation from EP1 and 2 is that Kanon can be declared dead somewhere yet continue to act. Although we don't really see him act most of the time, we have guesses that he acts and we have lies claiming that he acted. So, we need something to allow us to fit this situation... Maybe I should break this down by episode: Episode 1 - Kanon IS declared dead by Nanjo on the gameboard and everyone accepts this potential lie, but in red text it's declared that no one could kill him. Kanon then may have committed the last murders of Nanjo, Genji and Kumasawa. Episode 2 - Kanon is NOT declared dead on the gameboard since his body (and even his blood) was not found but Gouda, Genji and Shannon lie about seeing him kill Nanjo and Kumasawa with a magic sword. Kanon was declared dead in the meta-world however. Episode 3 - Kanon IS declared dead by the parents who found him, but then is the best candidate to kill Nanjo in the end and simply walk into the room and lead Jessica out. Episode 4 - ???? Episode 5 - Kanon's movements are unknown. Not declared dead in either world. Episode 6 - Kanon is NOT declared dead on the gameboard but was somehow able to escape and rescue Battler. After that he is declared dead in the Meta-World. The pattern I see is: 1. Kanon is normal at first. 2. Something triggers Kanon. 3. Kanon goes rogue and starts killing people or doing strange things. So for example these theories could fit this pattern: - Kanon is a robot. Gouda trips and knocks him over, activating his Kill All Humans circuits. (Breaks Knox rules. heh.) - Kanon has been hypnotized to kill under orders by George and he turns it on during the conference. (Breaks the Knox rules... or does it? I know hypnosis doesn't work like that in reality though.) - Kanon is an alien sent to observe the Ushiromiyas... if he doesn't like what he finds he kills them all. ---> Hey wait.. Kanon is shown in magic scenes of early episodes to be a 'spy' for Kinzo, right? Hmmm... |
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2010-06-12, 04:14 | Link #10932 | |
Endless Witch-Doctor
Join Date: Mar 2010
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Because each Episode has a different game board, and Eva-Beatrice was talking about "this one" (which at the time was EP3.) |
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2010-06-12, 04:24 | Link #10934 | ||
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Kanon's situation is very likely to be in some way abnormal, but I'm afraid that's not it yet. Sounds like it can be close though, it feels intuitively in some way fitting but the logic does not support this well. Quote:
I'm not sure what could it be, but in every case it would have to strike the exact same pressure point, possibly from different directions.
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2010-06-12, 04:35 | Link #10936 | |
Endless Witch-Doctor
Join Date: Mar 2010
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This is what the characters on the gameboard are led to believe about Kanon: EP1: Alive Dead (but the red denies that possibility) EP2: Alive Missing (but his death is confirmed in red anyway) EP3: (this is the humans-only gameboard) Alive Dead (his death is also confirmed in red) EP4: Alive Missing (but his death is confirmed in red anyway) EP5: Alive Unknown (the game ends too early) EP6: Alive Unknown (the TIPS screen doesn't update, and he just vanishes) He always starts out alive, and seems to alternate each Episode between "dead" and "missing". There needs to be an explanation for: -why he didn't die in EP1 -why his dead corpse is missing in EP2 and EP4 -why he did die in EP3 -what happened to him in EP5 and EP6 Even if EP3 is a humans-only gameboard, it's also the only gameboard in which Kanon's corpse is known and confirmed to be dead. So he can still be "fictional" in the other Episodes. |
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2010-06-12, 04:36 | Link #10937 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
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Episode 1 - Nanjo and Jessica are recruited by Kanon to give the illusion that he is dead, so that he can assist Culprit X behind the scenes in constructing the murders. Episode 2 - Kanon was killed protecting Jessica, and the mastermind, enraged at the love between the two, separates the couple. Then to surprise the people in the servants room, the culprit "knocks on the door" using Kanon's corpse, and takes the resulting opportunity from the chaos to kill Kumasawa and Nanjo. Shannon and Genji have several different possibilities to why they survive/lie about the magical blade. Episode 3 - Kanon is declared dead, on the gameboard and in the red. What I believe happened is that Jessica, blind and terrified, heard Kanon's voice leading her on. I simply just refuse to twist the red text in order to get what I want. However, this is the Episode where I can't explain it from an Existing Kanon point of view. Episode 4 - I have my doubts that the surviving group actually ended up in the Kuwadorian. But still, Kanon is pronounced as dead, the ninth victim. Sp he is killed, but we don't know when or where. So it's a possibility that he was following the mastermind's orders. Episode 5 - All we know is that Kanon and Kumasawa broke open Genji's sealed door in the morning. But there's a lot of scenes with him interacting with the other people (though these are all unreliable scenes) Episode 6 - I've already explained how Kanon could be alive and able to rescue Battler and then cease to exist/die. |
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2010-06-12, 04:39 | Link #10938 | |
Endless Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
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2010-06-12, 04:46 | Link #10939 | |
Endless Witch-Doctor
Join Date: Mar 2010
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Odds: Mystery-themed, Kanon dies, one of the mothers is a red herring, the epitaph is featured prominently Even: Fantasy-themed, Kanon goes missing, suit-Beatrice appears, Kinzo is "alive" until the very end Maybe there's actually a connection between all of them. Like X will only happen if Y happens, which will always happen when Z is true. Or something like that, but replace the variables with.... well, variables in the odd/even-numbered Episodes. I think there is a reason for that pattern, and Kanon's "dead or missing" status is one of them. |
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2010-06-12, 04:58 | Link #10940 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Well regarding work name "Kanon" I found something interesting about that.
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I don't find the idea interesting at all. I think it confuses the issue more than it clears it up.
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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-06-12 at 05:10. |
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