2010-08-07, 21:52 | Link #15501 |
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How do we know where that line is? What evidence is there to demonstrate how the red works, and when that line of "death" is sufficiently crossed? That's exactly the problem. If dead means dead, we don't need to ask ourselves what the rules are. Dead is dead, full stop. It's when we try to weasel out of "death" meaning biological death that we start having all these questions in the first place.
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2010-08-07, 22:06 | Link #15502 | |
The unlucky one
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Hiding
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It is a possibility which you can't deny. You shouldn't try deny things that you can not. If there is something wrong with the theory that you can proof go ahead but this is just a feeling of yours. Don't get me wrong! I actually feel similair to you but maybe it's because I have a weird way to speculate about Umineko. I see almost every theory that has yet not been proven as possibility. Some I like, some I don't and some are temporary solutions. If you want it...I believe in all theories. I have my preferences. For example I like Jessica=Shannon=Kanon more than Kanon=Shannon but in the end I think all solutions are plausible. Working against theories because something doesn't feel right is a dead end.
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2010-08-07, 22:13 | Link #15504 | |
The unlucky one
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Hiding
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Battler tried to deny the witch so badly that he ended up in a dead end himself. Beatrice's death and help of others brought him to truth not his stubborn witch defying side.
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2010-08-07, 22:17 | Link #15505 |
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Generally, when something doesn't feel right, it isn't. If I'm not satisfied with an answer, there's probably a reason for it.
And to suggest that the more sensible position between "dead is dead" and "dead might mean dead, but maybe not" is the latter is insane.
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2010-08-07, 22:26 | Link #15506 | |
The unlucky one
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Hiding
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"You are dead to me" I don't know if this is the one used in english but I think you have something similair. Does that mean that this person is really dead? Nope. In my opinon you should stop dismissing things so easily and uphold as much possible solutions as possible. If you always just dismiss things and never think further you will never get to a solution that someday might feel right but who am I to give you advice.
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2010-08-07, 22:29 | Link #15507 | |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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Kanon was killed... I guess as long as you create the condition that will lead to his/her death that's fine, they can still do something until they die. For instance if I poison you with an uncurable poison that will take an hour to make you dead, I arguably just killed you. Kanon does not exist in this room That's not being dead at all. Also arguably, "UsagiTenpura" does not exist I guess, but that's still far fetching it. Kanon is dead Yeah, I think any logic that claims he is not dead is starting to arbitrarily decide so. If Ryukishi said so then yes, I believe it's rather dishonest of him. Alternatively, it requires evidence that "dead" does not mean "dead". However prove me wrong if I am, but I think outside of arc 3 few people's death are actually said in red in the form of "x character is dead"? I do think that anything else then claiming someone is dead in such a direct way, however, is very suspicious. Edit: If Kanon/Shannon can "die because they do not exist", the I ask, how can something that does not even exist die? |
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2010-08-07, 22:32 | Link #15508 | |
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2010-08-07, 22:47 | Link #15509 | |
The unlucky one
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Hiding
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2010-08-07, 22:53 | Link #15510 | |
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Also, how do we know "Yoshiya" is his name, again? Because the VN said so? When did Battler find out that information? Just sayin'...
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2010-08-07, 23:17 | Link #15513 | ||
The unlucky one
Join Date: Mar 2009
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To be honest if you really can't see my point after this then it might be better to discuss this in private as this is going nowhere. I know that the points I have listened are in no way evidences but they are hints that can be interpreted that way and give me a reason to believe in this as you said. Funny thing is that I don't really believe in it either but I just think dismissing something so easily is basically the same as to stop thinking and stubbornly refuse everything that isn't directly perfect.
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2010-08-07, 23:20 | Link #15514 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Well, it's a bloody lot more complicated than just that! Truth of a fictional world is the product of an agreement between the readers and the writer. There is no cat and no box to actually be opened and demonstrated to the eager public -- a cat might exist for Battler, but it cannot possibly exist for us. Ryukishi may say that now he opened the cat box and the truth is out for everybody to see. He may also go and produce a "truer" truth in another episode after that. Notice the word agreement. Unless a sufficiently good explanation is given by the author, the covenant between the reader and the writer is broken, readers call it hogwash and leave, at which point the truth does not exist at all.
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2010-08-07, 23:24 | Link #15515 | |
The unlucky one
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Hiding
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He can't prove me wrong, I can't prove him wrong. I am not right, he is not right. We know shit.
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Last edited by Kitsu; 2010-08-07 at 23:27. Reason: to make my point clearer. |
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2010-08-07, 23:25 | Link #15516 | |||||
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2010-08-08, 00:12 | Link #15517 | |||||
The unlucky one
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Hiding
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Yoshiya itself is not important. It could have been any name Battler felt like it! It doesn't matter what it is. It matters that there is. The importance of an true name is what I meant. No the importance of the actual name. Quote:
Spoiler for example without game relevance:
I get this importance of the real name from the game. Therefore I don't think you should call it unsubstantiated points if my favor if I at least try to back up with ideas from the actual game, all you seem to do in the moment is force your idea of right and wrong on me. You even say it yourself Quote:
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Why are we discussing this game at all? I mean we wont get any confirmation until Ryukishi releases it so discussing is pointless (as we only have hints) because we can never now if we are right or wrong . Only the word of god can confirm if certain stuff i important or not until then we are all...wrong until proven otherwise. And I stated before what my theories are. Everything that I can think of and might be possible. This includes Shkanontrice, KinzoKanon etc. I try all kind of things and protect all possibilities. I'm an an undecisive person. You want the theory I am now working on? I'm working on changing things the Shkanontrice theory that might clear up some stuff which owuld have made it impossible. You might not know it but Shkannontrice is my least favorite theory. I still work on it because it is plausible.
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2010-08-08, 00:27 | Link #15518 | ||
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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How do you define a name is "real" or not? The way I see it a name can only be an inherently "fake name" if you're using someone else's name. Any names that exclusively refers to the same entity are all equally valid, wether or not they are recognized by an official authority. |
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2010-08-08, 02:28 | Link #15519 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: New Zealand
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Furniture death creates a fair few problems. e.g.
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Shannon is in the next room over Everyone else (ergo, Sayo) is in the cousins' room. |
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2010-08-08, 02:32 | Link #15520 |
Senior Member
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Isn't it enough that it is stressed that Shannon and Kanon aren't there real names? And that they are shown alive again in later scenes?
Here is the TIPS for episode 1: "Furthermore, Shannon is nothing more than a pseudonym that she uses when on duty, not her real name." A similar tip is there for Kanon. This satisfies Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED!! You don't have to believe that this is true, but to say it is completely unsubstantiated is a little ridiculous. |
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