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Old 2007-07-01, 22:45   Link #2041
CrowKenobi
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^^I don't know, but I've watched Animaniacs and I still don't get all the references there... but it didn't stop me from watching it... the same with Lucky Star... if I get entertained I don't need to know all the refs, but as I find out more of them, it adds to my enjoyment of the show.



Edit: I'm sure that there's more western otaku familiar with Comiket than you realize... (Comic Party anyone?)
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Old 2007-07-02, 05:57   Link #2042
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
If it weren't for the Kadokawa/Kyoto Animation combination and the prior history of releasing a number of "very Japanese" shows into this market, I might agree with you. As it stands, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see Kadokawa sell it here (since they own it anyway, there's no licensing cost). There are a number of shows even more "niche"/limited-in-appeal than this one already being released. Of course, time will tell, though... There's really no way to know, of course.
I'm wondering if going at it from the angle of "From The Creators Of The Runaway Hit Anime Suzumiya Haruhi No Yuutsu Anime, We Bring You..." Would open a market, or if the Haruhi R1 buyers were already a closed sector that had seen the subs, and that type of approach would have no effect on R1 consumers as a whole.
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Old 2007-07-02, 11:02   Link #2043
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^^How about releasing it on its own merits? I would think that the R1 anime buyer is a lot more intelligent than you give them credit for.

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Old 2007-07-02, 12:54   Link #2044
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Originally Posted by Samatarou View Post
JEEB have it in kanji, you could just get the .ass script from their site and overlay it on your existing video (or a raw) if you like. Should be quite easy to chop all but the kanji lines out of the script if that's all you need.

Personally I prefer the op with no karaoke at all, since it's basically a nonsense song I'm not really interested in the lyrics, for me the subs just clutter up the nice OP seq. Given that even Japanese viewers couldn't make the words out properly I'm not sure it's a very useful song to practice your Japanese with either.
Point taken. It is indeed a way too nonsensical song for me to learn anything, still I'd like to see what "gibberish" was being uttered by Hirano Aya and the bunch.
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Old 2007-07-02, 13:06   Link #2045
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Not pointing at AVPlaya particularly (actually not at all)... but I don't find it unusual for some people (usually japanese but sometimes not) to just assume the culture is just too opaque for outsiders to ever grasp.

Monty Python is quite dense in terms of culture-specific (and politically specific) memes. Really, in order to truly enjoy the show you have to have several reference books on British culture and politics in the 1970s. Otherwise, you're wasting your time.

See how that sounds? Substitute 'japanese' for British and 'PPD' or 'L*S' for Monty Python and think about it. Personally, I've found I just have to get used to the 'outsider' meme.
1) My goodness, you can use hashi?
2) You speak Japanese very well! (even if I've just totally mangled it)
3) My favorite, if I talk about japanese local politics or recent cultural shifts and I get a completely 'deer in the headlights' look from the person because they just can't process the idea that a 'tall white guy' might know who Abe is or that the changes in the pension plan have caused divorce rates to skyrocket amongst middle-aged japanese.

Ah well... L*S *might* break through as a sort of "Peanuts" meme to the general public video buyer. But mostly likely, it'll be the same crowd that bought into PPD, I.M., AzuDa, and other 'culturally japanese' shows. From a marketing standpoint, I can totally see them trying to tie in with "From the makers of Haruhi..." ... Hell, Disney does that all the time with their products that don't have an automatic "win". I just saw Ratatouille.. a lovely little film from Disney-Pixar, but all the adverts for it feel compelled to say "From the people who brought you...." as if it couldn't stand on its own.
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Old 2007-07-02, 13:44   Link #2046
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...I don't find it unusual for some people (usually japanese but sometimes not) to just assume the culture is just too opaque for outsiders to ever grasp. [...]
Absolutely right; anime itself is the perfect example of that! There was a time not too long ago when Japanese publishers were astounded that Americans were approaching them offering to pay money to license their "very-Japanese" wares and try to actually sell them in America. Sort of a "why would any American be interested in watching Japanese animation?" deal. How times have changed! Now most of the companies releasing anime here are either owned or partially funded directly by the Japanese conglomorates, and entire productions are green-lit based on U.S. marketability alone. (For more on this subject, there's a pretty good piece in RightStuf's latest podcast.)

So yeah, I agree with Vexx; the PPD/IM/AzuDaioh crowd + "from the producers of Haruhi and Full Metal Panic!". It won't ever air on TV, so it won't ever sell "bucketloads", but I expect it'd sell quite decently.
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Old 2007-07-02, 14:44   Link #2047
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Oh I'm not saying non-Japanese can't enjoy L*S.. I think all of you have proven that to be untrue. All I'm saying is that the L*S producer/writers has zero expectation of L*S being understood by a non-Japanese as it was a joke aimed at a niche of a niche, and that you'll enjoy it a lot more if you're an otaku (I believe almost everyone here qualifies) who knows the culture of the real Japan.

Vexx, I don't quite see your substituting of Monty Python (huge Python fan here) is quite comparible. I expect a person who grew up in the US to at least understand the language the Python used and get some of the jokes by default due to cultural similarities. Plus Python even at the time was mostly a senseless slapstick comedy anyone can enjoy. I mean this was the time when Benny Hill was king. However, I would not expect a similar person to know or understand as much about modern Japanese life. The level of ignorance is much, much higher.

As for Japanese expectation for foreign enjoyment of their animation; I must say it's one of the hardest thing for them to fathom. The Japanese don't have a very high opinion of their own popular culture and they do not expect outsiders to like it. It's only in the past 20 some years they've finally come to term that other Asians also enjoy their entertainment and so they're quire comfortable with the concept of, say, Ayumi having a sell-out concert in Shanghai. Given all that, they think even less of their otaku sub-culture which are composed of people they deemed as social outcasts. If you tell an ordinary Japanese now about the state of anime popularity in the US, they will be shocked every single time. I know so since I do this a lot to get the look on their faces. What to shock a Japanese? Show them the English version of "NANA" manga.

I still think the Japanese side of anime companies are still struggling with this feeling to really feel comfortable releasing certain animes here. If the non-anime general public are more receptive to modern J-culture, perhaps that will change, but I don't see that from happening anytime soon.
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Old 2007-07-02, 14:56   Link #2048
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrowKenobi View Post
^^How about releasing it on its own merits? I would think that the R1 anime buyer is a lot more intelligent than you give them credit for.

It isn't really as much a matter of intelligence as it is of interest. Is Lucky Star on it's own interesting enough for the R1 audience as a whole for them to want to buy it or does it need an extra promotional kick?
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Old 2007-07-02, 15:06   Link #2049
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Quote:
^^How about releasing it on its own merits? I would think that the R1 anime buyer is a lot more intelligent than you give them credit for.
Umm, you know, I think the regular American anime DVD buyer knows near to nothing about the current airing shows in Japan, and he barely knows anything about its culture. Most people that watched Haruhi don't even know what KyoAni is. Now, the licensing studio could just go and target it at people who already know about the show (the most otakuish part of the fandom), however, I feel L*S is going to have a tremendously high licensing fee due to the popularity it's been having in Japan. Now, with the licensing of Haruhi (which is in general terms a much more appealing series for a western audience), regular non-fansub interested American buyers would have another hook for grabbing a somewhat obscure series in terms of content.

So I think they probably will put a giant "From the creators of Haruhi" band on top of the DVD, if they ever happen to release the title, in order to boost sales. It's not insulting the buyer's intelligence (since there are a lot of people that would buy it even without that little band on top), but there would be a lot more people that would buy it if it was there.
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Old 2007-07-02, 15:45   Link #2050
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
however, I feel L*S is going to have a tremendously high licensing fee due to the popularity it's been having in Japan.
Well, this is part of the thing that makes it all the more likely, IMO. With Kadokawa (the Japanese publishers of Lucky Star/Haruhi/etc.) now operating in the U.S., there really is no licensing fee. They own it, so they can sell it wherever they like, and they just pay the production costs (or pay another studio to do it for them/profit-share with them). That's, I think, what makes it all the more likely they can "chance" on a show like this. Given that Kadokawa already made English-language promo flyers for the show back when it was about to come out, I imagine they're aware of the international interest after Haruhi's success.
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Old 2007-07-02, 16:27   Link #2051
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Well, this is part of the thing that makes it all the more likely, IMO. With Kadokawa (the Japanese publishers of Lucky Star/Haruhi/etc.) now operating in the U.S., there really is no licensing fee. They own it, so they can sell it wherever they like, and they just pay the production costs (or pay another studio to do it for them/profit-share with them). That's, I think, what makes it all the more likely they can "chance" on a show like this. Given that Kadokawa already made English-language promo flyers for the show back when it was about to come out, I imagine they're aware of the international interest after Haruhi's success.
That's a fairly good point actually. They've basically got the same deal as Bandai going on and can take risks like when Bandai brought Gundam too the west way back in the day when Gundam was as foreign a concept as Lucky Star is now.
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Old 2007-07-02, 19:37   Link #2052
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A show dub-less show should not cost too much to re-package and sell. Heck they can even take box art/insert verbatim. After thinking about how crazy it was for Kadokawa to release Haruhi here, they'll probably do a Lucky Star without dub. The otakus here are earning respect... who knows, maybe the next KyoAni series will throw in a bone for the gaijin fansub watchers.
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Old 2007-07-02, 19:52   Link #2053
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Out of curiosity, what other series have been released without a dub? I don't know of any except for Card Captor Sakura, and the reason that was released dub-less is because of Cardcaptors (which was brutally chopped up and released only as a dub), and fans demanded the original series subbed.

Other than that, I can't think of any series that was released without a dub... however, I don't buy a whole lot of DVDs. (BTW, years ago I bought the entire CCS set for $11 a disk... I was very, very pleased. )
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Old 2007-07-02, 20:54   Link #2054
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Out of curiosity, what other series have been released without a dub? I don't know of any except for Card Captor Sakura, and the reason that was released dub-less is because of Cardcaptors (which was brutally chopped up and released only as a dub), and fans demanded the original series subbed.

Other than that, I can't think of any series that was released without a dub... however, I don't buy a whole lot of DVDs.
Dubs are still the standard these days, but you're starting to see some of the more "niche" shows come out without them from groups like Media Blasters, RightStuf, and Bandai Visual. For example, Kashimashi, Wings of Rean, Simoun, Victorian Romance Emma, and Galaxy Angel Rune, among others (those are just off the top of my head).

That being said, I very much doubt a show of this pedigree would be released in North America dubless, for many of the reasons already established. It simply isn't that niche of a show.
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Originally Posted by AVPlaya View Post
After thinking about how crazy it was for Kadokawa to release Haruhi here, they'll probably do a Lucky Star without dub.
So "crazy" that they'd do it again in a heartbeat. Those $50-65 Limited Editions are selling very well, by all reports. They ended up soliciting even more of the Character CDs than they had originally lined up, based on strong demand. Lightning may not strike twice, but if anything, Kadokawa would be very encouraged by Haruhi's sales, I think. You sure have some funny ideas about the R1 DVD market.
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Old 2007-07-02, 21:26   Link #2055
AVPlaya
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You sure have some funny ideas about the R1 DVD market.
I guess, I don't know much about it really, not normally being in the R1 market. I'm just thinking from the Japanese perspective, knowing the ideas they have in their heads. There's a reason why the major publishers used to license properties to foreign firms instead of setting shop and selling it themselves like they're starting to do now - a lot of Japanese employees in those companies simply don't believe anime will sell in the West, and they want others to take the risk. It seemed that they're coming around now and we may see more IP owners just setup a US branch like Kadokawa. I understand where they're coming from and even with mounting evidence to the contrary I still have to pinch myself sometimes when I see the anime isle at the local mall.

I would certainly buy a R1 L*S release... but I really don't see the point of a dub.
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Old 2007-07-02, 22:08   Link #2056
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I don't even want to think about a dub... but then I'm already known for my opinion of most dubs and as long as they leave the original audio track as a selection I'm happy.
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Old 2007-07-02, 22:21   Link #2057
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I don't even want to think about a dub... but then I'm already known for my opinion of most dubs and as long as they leave the original audio track as a selection I'm happy.
I am not,so I am paying 50% more for sub par subbing that might have a American tilt to it and 5-7 (out of 11) level of dubbing....

(Ranma1/2 is a 10 or 11 dub,bleach is a 5,FMA is a 6,Naruto is a 4,Inuyasha is a 7 maybe a 8) now adays they market dubs to damn hard at least in the mid early 90s it was either ok or ZOMG bad.

Kira kyo maoh is a 7 or 8 it was dubed in the past 5 or 6 years I think...I just try and not deal with dubs anymore...
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Old 2007-07-02, 23:26   Link #2058
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Originally Posted by AVPlaya
Why would any sane company pickup Lucky Star... very, very limited audience. In addition to be overtly otaku, this show is very, very Japanese. There's reference to something Japanese in every sentence. Even among the hardcore Western otaku very few knows that much about the real Japanese pop culture. I really don't see the audience here. I fully expect no R1 release for Lucky Star.
Comic Party, Genshiken and Pani Poni Dash were picked up, and none of them had the marketability of Lucky Star.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
See how that sounds? Substitute 'japanese' for British and 'PPD' or 'L*S' for Monty Python and think about it. Personally, I've found I just have to get used to the 'outsider' meme.
1) My goodness, you can use hashi?
2) You speak Japanese very well! (even if I've just totally mangled it)
3) My favorite, if I talk about japanese local politics or recent cultural shifts and I get a completely 'deer in the headlights' look from the person because they just can't process the idea that a 'tall white guy' might know who Abe is or that the changes in the pension plan have caused divorce rates to skyrocket amongst middle-aged japanese.
Heh. The Japanese (and most of the rest of Asia, for that matter) suffer from a lot of cultural chauvinism. The truth is that anyone who's interested in such subjects can readily find out about them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AVPlaya
Oh I'm not saying non-Japanese can't enjoy L*S.. I think all of you have proven that to be untrue. All I'm saying is that the L*S producer/writers has zero expectation of L*S being understood by a non-Japanese as it was a joke aimed at a niche of a niche, and that you'll enjoy it a lot more if you're an otaku (I believe almost everyone here qualifies) who knows the culture of the real Japan.
The truth is that just about no Japanese creators have any idea what foreign markets and tastes are like. Even a short time ago, there wasn't any expectation that any show would succeed overseas, or that foreign fans even existed at all. Currently, all the signs indicate that the Japanese companies still have no clue as to what will sell in the West: often prices for shows are based on their popularity in Japan even though such figures may not have any relevance elsewhere, and Bandai's mangling of the Gundam franchise in the U.S. or Bandai Visual's bizarre pricing schemes. So far, Kadokawa seems to have read the American market the best, so the chances of them doing a good job with the release (it's almost inevitable) are pretty good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin_Sama
That's a fairly good point actually. They've basically got the same deal as Bandai going on and can take risks like when Bandai brought Gundam too the west way back in the day when Gundam was as foreign a concept as Lucky Star is now.
That may not be the greatest example since Bandai has pretty much flubbed the handling of Gundam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AVPlaya
A show dub-less show should not cost too much to re-package and sell. Heck they can even take box art/insert verbatim. After thinking about how crazy it was for Kadokawa to release Haruhi here, they'll probably do a Lucky Star without dub. The otakus here are earning respect... who knows, maybe the next KyoAni series will throw in a bone for the gaijin fansub watchers.
I don't think so. While Lucky Star has a niche audience, it's well known enough that it probably won't be given a sub-only release. Kadokawa expended a great deal of effort on the release of Haruhi, and I expect that it will perform at least decently. With an interesting marketing campaign and fairly good exposure I don't think that it was a risky move at all.
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Old 2007-07-02, 23:33   Link #2059
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Comic Party, Genshiken and Pani Poni Dash were picked up, and none of them had the marketability of Lucky Star.


Heh. The Japanese (and most of the rest of Asia, for that matter) suffer from a lot of cultural chauvinism. The truth is that anyone who's interested in such subjects can readily find out about them.


The truth is that just about no Japanese creators have any idea what foreign markets and tastes are like. Even a short time ago, there wasn't any expectation that any show would succeed overseas, or that foreign fans even existed at all. Currently, all the signs indicate that the Japanese companies still have no clue as to what will sell in the West: often prices for shows are based on their popularity in Japan even though such figures may not have any relevance elsewhere, and Bandai's mangling of the Gundam franchise in the U.S. or Bandai Visual's bizarre pricing schemes. So far, Kadokawa seems to have read the American market the best, so the chances of them doing a good job with the release (it's almost inevitable) are pretty good.


That may not be the greatest example since Bandai has pretty much flubbed the handling of Gundam.


I don't think so. While Lucky Star has a niche audience, it's well known enough that it probably won't be given a sub-only release. Kadokawa expended a great deal of effort on the release of Haruhi, and I expect that it will perform at least decently. With an interesting marketing campaign and fairly good exposure I don't think that it was a risky move at all.
Not to mention letting hacks like 4kids and Ilumination rape their IPs,its one thing to release it properly after the edits but my god they refuse to sale unedited un dubed and for me thats another strike agisnt the system, add PR/marketisim to the dubing..things get worse ><

before I forget, LS is a fun and silly show,in some ways rings of Azumanga Daioh,all they need to do is not rape the Japanese symbolisms and have ok voice acting,I think the show can be done easily by a normal or better domestic dubber,it will sale on tis own as long as they do not to "localize" it.
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Old 2007-07-03, 00:03   Link #2060
Kaioshin Sama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Risaa View Post
Out of curiosity, what other series have been released without a dub? I don't know of any except for Card Captor Sakura, and the reason that was released dub-less is because of Cardcaptors (which was brutally chopped up and released only as a dub), and fans demanded the original series subbed.

Other than that, I can't think of any series that was released without a dub... however, I don't buy a whole lot of DVDs. (BTW, years ago I bought the entire CCS set for $11 a disk... I was very, very pleased. )
My friend has a sub only Tekkaman Blade Boxset, and I have Super Bestial Machine God Dancougar VHS tapes that are sub only (obviously only one audio track was possible). It was more common to see sub only stuff back in the VHS days.

@4Tran:
Coordinator: "Alright ship the Zeta Gundam DVD's"
Next Day
Spokesperson: "Your DVD's have shipped, but I'm afraid there's some bad news, we changed the opening theme, the show is dubtitled and er....some of the discs might be duplicates or may not even work at all, thanks for spending 200 dollars on this boxset that given it's rarity and limited edition nature should have had more effort put into it. Oh and for no real reason we changed the english cast from Mobile Suit Gundam that everybody seemed to like to cold readers, K thanks."

Just hope that ADV Films doesn't pick it up like they did PPD and give Carl Macek the dub direction. Although in all honesty it will probably go to Kadokawa/Bandai if it goes to anyone.
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