2007-06-23, 12:59 | Link #321 |
Once and Current Subber
Join Date: Dec 2005
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One points out that nobody'd ever tested the Durandal on the Book (obviously, 'cause it's still around), so even Graham couldn't have been sure that it would work at all.
I'm not accusing Graham of cruelty, exactly - it's not his fault that Hayate got picked or anything. (Whether a quick word to Lindy would have been more effective than having his familiars kick around our heroes whenever they were getting the upper hand, well now, that's a different story. And certainly Aria and Lieze were just -mean- when they finally drove Hayate to activate the Book.) We're just questioning his judgment. I'll grant that he never intended to use the Arc on the Book. But plan A is untested and has finicky timing, might not actually work, and not to put too fine a point on it, is quite illegal. It's not beyond reason that plan B (the usual "blow the crap out of the awakened Book with the Arc) would need to be implemented if something goes wrong with plan A. But Hayate's in a location that makes plan B very, very, very bad. And she's there for no good reason on Graham's part. Okay, writers' imperative, if Hayate isn't a local to Nanoha, then they can't plausibly meet up on Christmas Eve at the hospital and the plot goes to hell. But there's only one reason -in the context of the story- that Graham chose to set up the Yagami household in Tokyo... ...and that is, if he was discovered/stopped, he needed to make plan B as unpalatable as possible, in order to convince whoever stopped him that plan A (Durandal) was the way to go. If she was out in the boonies somewhere, and it was "okay, kill a little girl and save the world", that's not that hard a choice for the TSAB folks. "Kill fifty million people, eliminate a major world capital, and save the world" is a good bit harder! Even worse, it worked - Chrono came prepared to use the Durandal, despite the problems he had with everything, right up until Hayate popped out of the Book. This makes Graham quite a bit more of a bastard than he would be otherwise. Not having any way to save Hayate, putting her in frozen sleep isn't too bad, from an ethical perspective. But putting her in some of the most heavily-inhabited real estate in the world, merely for the sake of making it easier to justify that act? That's some cold blood, there. Can anybody think of an alternate in-character line of reasoning that would work here? |
2007-06-29, 07:18 | Link #322 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
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I was wondering about sth for a long time now( and although I searched the thread, I couldn't find about this; so sorry if I missed it ).
In A's, after Yuuno told Nanoha to " deal as much magical damage as you can", Nanoha used Excellion Buster Fourth Burst( or Force Burst?) followed by a " Break Shoot". The question is; why didn't she use Starlight Breaker when it is also pure magical and maybe the most powerful attack? Or am I overlooking something? |
2007-06-29, 07:45 | Link #323 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Age: 38
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Foresight?
As powerful as Starlight Breaker is, the effort it takes to cast and fire it isn't exactly worth the while on an opponent thats capable of dodging(hence the bind on Fate in the original) it. If it missed, Nanoha would probably be in quite a bind, as Reinforce I'll probably be able to kill her quite easily. Also, even if she's able to get Fate out of Rein I with SLB, she'll probably be too tired to contend with the infinitely powerful Rein I, even if she's with Fate. So either way it doesn't work out for Nanoha. Hence the (I presume) second most powerful artillery attack, the Excelion version of her Divine Buster. |
2007-06-29, 08:10 | Link #325 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Age: 38
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3. its association with Goku's Genki-Dama EDIT: Oh this too: There's the promise with Fate to let loose her full power during their final fight in the first series as well, probably led Nanoha to use what she thought was the most powerful spell in her arsenal. Its all circumstantial, I suppose. |
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2007-07-20, 14:16 | Link #326 | ||||||
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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A continuation of an ongoing discussion in the character creation thread:
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Or, if they target the MP, then it would equal a draining of the Linker Core, yet we've seen no such drain whatsoever apart from Yami no Sho's absorption. Two misiles, two hits. |
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2007-07-20, 14:41 | Link #327 | ||||
Human
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Currently - Germany
Age: 38
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2007-07-20, 14:46 | Link #328 | ||||||
Hiromi
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Girl who Lost her Tears
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And yes, this explosion is "simple" compared to a nuke's... Quote:
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I dont see how this proves your point. You see, you're talking about the Aces being able to survive a magical explosion. Well, this is not the same as a nuclear explosion. In a magical explosion, I say again, there isnt any fire, radiation, or lack of air. In the case of a nuclear explosion, even if the air is not "blown away", the fire will consume it anyway. Also, the girls were not protected against anything right after the explosion, so proves that there isnt any nuclear radiation or any harmful side effects after the explosion. So my argument stands. The girls have NOT been in such a situation before. And again I repeat, there was no such thing as lack of air in SLB's explosion. The girls were breathing normally at all times. Quote:
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First, it proves that the idea of people not having a Linker Core at all makes no sense. On this same point, Arisa and Suzuka were inside the barrier, which supposedly got rid of any people without a LC... this just means, they do have one. Second, again, Shamal and Signum did not ever intend to COMPLETELY drain their LC, or they would have killed them. They wanted magical energy; they didnt want to kill for it, though. |
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2007-07-20, 15:07 | Link #329 | ||
Human
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Currently - Germany
Age: 38
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Excluding ionizing radiation a nuke's explosion is not different from a regular one, just many times more powerful.
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Agreed on the point of no cases of complete drainage of LC. |
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2007-07-20, 15:23 | Link #330 | |
Hiromi
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Girl who Lost her Tears
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The fire itself would be the least harmful side effect of the nuclear explosion, though still not something to be taken lightly. More of a problem will be the smoke and the lack of oxygen, which could be lethal to any person. Even if there is air to breath, you will be breathing smoke... you just breathe once, and all your strength and stamina will take a huge hit. In other words, you have to act extremely quickly to get out. |
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2007-07-20, 15:36 | Link #331 | |
Human
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Currently - Germany
Age: 38
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2007-07-20, 15:49 | Link #332 | ||||
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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How so? which goes to show its not all that bad. Quote:
A: The rubble was due to the fact that the beam was physical. B: The ruble was blown away because the air was blown away. In either case, it proves a point of mine. Either the SLB was physical, or the air was being blown away, which means the defenses and the people within could survive a nuklear blast. (An Hero's post about the Heavy Barrel not being a magic attack has recandled my battle against Magical Damage. ) Quote:
You dodged the blanks. Perpare for the real ones. Quote:
It's still not proven that complete draining of the Core kills a mage. If it was, people without them couldn't exist. If it was, fate would have been in life threatening danger after her Core was drained (which again, Lindy said she was not). |
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2007-07-20, 16:54 | Link #333 | |||||||
Hiromi
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Girl who Lost her Tears
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*me furiously STRANGLES Keroko*
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LISTEN, you... Black Demon ... If you recall, I clearly said that the blast itself, if its not powerful, or if you're far away enough, CAN be blocked by barriers. HOWEVER, if you survive the blast (read as: you're a GENIUS at barriers) then the side effects will consume you. The side effects can be lethal! The fire, the extreme heat, the radiation, the lack of breathable air, smoke, no oxygen... all this stuff is present after a nuclear explosion, and NOT after a magical explosion. And there's proof for that! Again, Reinforce I's SLB. After the explosion, the girls were breathing normally, and there was absolutely nothing wrong with the environment. Now, one more thing. The shield that covers you 360 degrees is not as powerful as a Round Shield that covers only one side. So, in order to survive the FIRST blast, you definitely need a Round Shield. But letme ask you, even if you're Yuuno or Arf, can you POSSIBLY set up a 360 degree shield, and/or a field defense in that SPLIT of a second just after the blast, before the fire and everything else engulfs you? In my view, that's impossible. And BTW, I think that rubble is pure BS. Pure eyecandy, as in "damn, that looks powerful!" But well, I did say before a few times, I do agree that SLB does a BIT of physical damage, as its shown in season 1 that it splashes water around... HOWEVER, this water thing may very well be just eyecandy as well. Damn producers, making us argue!! Quote:
Even if it has been proven or not, though, I just cant picture a barrier jacket being THIS good... but I dont mind... I'm good... Its all good... Quote:
Seriously, before this season started, I was totally expecting at least Arisa coming in like "SUP! I became a mage in secret to surprise you all... and I just passed the SSS rank test!" (j/k about the rank, btw) Quote:
That's how I view it. And you? |
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2007-07-20, 17:37 | Link #334 | ||||||||||||
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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I have that effect at times.
Usually means they're about to crumble. Quote:
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besides, the shockwave needs time too. Quote:
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And once more, Fate was not in critical condition. That's the entire bloody point! Oh, and I just found this quote of yours in the OC section: Quote:
-Magical Damage and Physical Damage are one and the same. Magical Damage merely means that the damage was dealt through a spell. -The reason people get shot and come out without a scratch is because of the Barrier Jackets. -The reason giant beams hit a city and everything keeps standing is because of barriers. See? Very simple, no need to go and make everything difficult. |
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2007-07-20, 17:53 | Link #335 | ||
Human
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Currently - Germany
Age: 38
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2007-07-20, 18:41 | Link #337 | |
Field Medic
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Not wholly true...there's a 'practical' limit of ten megatons to any kind of explosion when used on a planetary body, because once you reach this 'threshold' if you will, the vast majority of the explosive effects are actually blasted right out of the atmosphere, and the demonstrated effects actually become less than a lower rated blast. This is why ICBM's are now regularly loaded with low megatonnage Multiple independently targeted re-entry Vehicles (MIRV's) rather than single huge 'tzar bomba' style massive megatonnage warheads...aside from the obvious coverage issues Incidentally, this 'effective threshold' might be just as relevant to magically inflicted explosions as well, meaning that you might get more bang from a smaller better aimed blast than from a huge ball of doom that blasts itself into orbit rather than stay put and do damage... Of course, it would depend on the nature of the spells involved... |
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2007-07-20, 19:26 | Link #338 | ||||||||||
Hiromi
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Girl who Lost her Tears
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Seriously, though, first, I agree 100% with lazy animators. They are the cause of our endless argument here. Second, the reason why I used eye candy this time is because you said: Quote:
This is just animation stuff. Quote:
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The whole point is that a Nuclear Explosion is NOT THE SAME as a Magical Explosion, because of all the factors I described, and that the Aces have NEVER BEEN IN SUCH SITUATION. And no, the airport stuff DOES NOT COUNT. First, the explosion was not big at all, or the airport would have been completely wiped out... no piece of building standing. And second, the Aces were not there at the time of the explosion. When they got there, only small flames were around the place, and smoke was the only thing they had to take care off, and they did with their 360 shields. In other words, they were PREPARED to be in such situation, so they went into the airport with their 360 shields on. Quote:
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Now, picture the same event, where the Wolkenritter are assholes and dont say anything about the incoming magical nuke, and the barrier was not present, so the Annihilation Lightning instantly hits the battlefield... Not even Arf or Yuuno could get barriers up in a split of a second to survive such thing. Our heroes would have been DEAD. (For more about Annihilation Lightning, check the last of my responses on this post) And about the "shockwave needs time too" part, YES, that's why I say, you can get ready for the first blast, but then you would be engulfed in flames, etc etc... look below. I'll copy paste my last argument again: "Now, one more thing. The shield that covers you 360 degrees is not as powerful as a Round Shield that covers only one side. So, in order to survive the FIRST blast, you definitely need a Round Shield. But letme ask you, even if you're Yuuno or Arf, can you POSSIBLY set up a 360 degree shield, and/or a field defense in that SPLIT of a second just after the blast, before the fire and everything else engulfs you? In my view, that's impossible." This still stands. There's NO WAY you can react that fast. If you contradict this, I'll just drop this discussion, as it really wont make any sense to me. Besides, almost all of our characters are trained to attack. You have to be a barrier master to be able to even withstand the first blast of a nuclear explosion. OK, seriously, if you argue against all I've said here, and still think that such thing is possible, I just dont know what else to say. I have explained things as best as I can this time. ...I just dont know what else to say. Quote:
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2007-07-20, 22:03 | Link #339 | |
~ I Do ~
Author
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: In the XV-8A Spartan "00"
Age: 38
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MWAHAHAHAHAHA...!!! Besides, that all that expolsive energy is usually used to power the Buster Rifle instead of mindlessly throwing a good working cartridge at the enemy. And given this information it makes it even more silly to do that. I suppose a super-large and round explosion, like we see in UC-era Gundam, can take out a fleet in space and scare the remainder enough to not follow?
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2007-07-21, 01:05 | Link #340 | ||||
Human
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Currently - Germany
Age: 38
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Also look at Diabolic Emission spell for example - there was no barrier around that city part in StrikerS I believe, yet no physical damage was dealt to the surroundings. Quote:
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