Mechs, Weapons, and Technology of Code Geass

[Panzerklein]

How about of Infantry Weapons? I thought they are combied between P90 and FAMAS in real life.

[Jeffry2009]

i hope they will used another weapon like Desert eagle, minigun, baretta twingun and so on.

[Cal-Reflector]

Just finished reading the history speculation thread and this one, and would like to thank everyone for their valuable input (I oughta be working, but oh well). I think the information here will help a great deal when I write my CG fiction. It's going to be tough, but I'm going to try my best to reconcile the state of military hardware and warfare portrayed in Code Geass with the real world's as much as possible. That means unsexy but neccessary considerations like logistics (ammo and fuel will run out!), sand filters, maintenance, and the absence of neigh-invincible one-many-armies whose presence alone obsoletes all conventional thinking; for that, I watch Superman.

I'm a Zaku fan by the way, if that says anything, and not Char's custom model either.

Now, in relation to the thread:
I've gained the impression that indeed, given the official specs (secondary in relevance compared to what's actually portrayed in the show) of the Knightmares, their effectiveness is greatly exaggerated (What fool of a helicopter pilot gets shot down with a spear gun?). But in all this one critical factor in talking about any weapon system is missing: cost. I'm sure we'll have no way of finding out, with no mention at all towards the cost of building knigtmares from the producers up till this point, but the robot doesn't strike me as an inexpensive platform, in spite of its low mass.

Specifically, advanced sensors and sophisticated user interfaces to allow for the ninja-like agility, plus the wear and tear on components from performing said ninja aerobatics in combat. All of that should add up rather quickly; I'm assuming the cost of the power plant/engine is not as much a factor, since its been mentioned that power generation technology is advanced to the point of infantry energy small arms (metal storm?) becoming practical.

Another question: If what I'm reading about superconductivity (e.g. sakuradite) is correct, then Knightmare's run on... electricity? The assumption would then be technology advances to the point of developing affordable, light weight, low volume, super high density energy storage/transmission/conducting devices that are rugged enough for military application. That, or some fuel-cell power plant, a technology I won't pretend to understand, except noting that fuel cells have typically low fuel-to-electricity efficiency, which seems to suggest the necessity for large quantities of fuel, which requires volumes that Knightmare frames don't have.

[HunterRequiem]

Originally Posted by Panzerklein

How about of Infantry Weapons? I thought they are combied between P90 and FAMAS in real life.

Combined arms is NOT "combining" weapons to make them look cool. Combined arms in the concept of using all three of the millitary unit types (infantry, armor, artillery) to fight. Using only one of them (in this case, mechanized infantry) against armor, they're not going to do very well. If those strykers had been given a batery of 105s or an MLRS, the abrams wouldn't have lasted too long.

[Cal-Reflector]

Originally Posted by HunterRequiem

Combined arms is NOT "combining" weapons to make them look cool. Combined arms in the concept of using all three of the millitary unit types (infantry, armor, artillery) to fight. Using only one of them (in this case, mechanized infantry) against armor, they're not going to do very well. If those strykers had been given a batery of 105s or an MLRS, the abrams wouldn't have lasted too long.

Was that what the gentleman was referring to? Anyways he's right though, the weapon seen most often carried by Brittanian troops is a cross between a FAMAS and a P90. We must keep in mind though that in Geass, gunpowder is replaced by electro-magnetic propulsion, which changes alot of things: Much lighter and takes up less space to carry ammunition being just one.

There's no demonstration of Combined Arms in Code Geass. Seems that the prevailing doctrine is that Knightmares rule, period, which I don't buy but alas the traditional fetish of invicinble and omni-capable humanoid robots must be satisfied.

[JagdPanther]

Originally Posted by Cal-Reflector

There's no demonstration of Combined Arms in Code Geass. Seems that the prevailing doctrine is that Knightmares rule, period, which I don't buy but alas the traditional fetish of invicinble and omni-capable humanoid robots must be satisfied.

I've only finished the first two episodes tonight and I already know... >_>

Nothing beats a mech. *sigh*

Makes writing fics so hard because I'm so tempted to use tactics and intelligence and prove why I'm right and the writers of series are crazy.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Cal-Reflector

There's no demonstration of Combined Arms in Code Geass. Seems that the prevailing doctrine is that Knightmares rule, period, which I don't buy but alas the traditional fetish of invincible and omni-capable humanoid robots must be satisfied.

Well, if they were to use technology we have today... there would be no point in Mechs. By todays standards the only thing a bipedal mech would have over a tank or soldier is its ability to have a large "Shoot me here" symbol written on its power generator. Woo for chemical turbines...

Electromagnetic absorption plates are the only thing we have right now that makes them even lightly useful but we can put that on just about anything as it is two sheets of metal separated by an electric current to absorb shocks from shots.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by HunterRequiem

If those strykers had been given a batery of 105s or an MLRS, the abrams wouldn't have lasted too long.

The point of that particular exercise was to test the capabilities and limitations of a Stryker brigade against a competent foe. Stryker brigades don't have 105s or MLRS systems (I believe that the only indirect fire weapons they have are the mortar Strykers), so it's quite telling in that regard.

Originally Posted by Cal-Reflector

There's no demonstration of Combined Arms in Code Geass. Seems that the prevailing doctrine is that Knightmares rule, period, which I don't buy but alas the traditional fetish of invicinble and omni-capable humanoid robots must be satisfied.

That's sort of the trend for mecha shows for a very long time. VOTOMS (please correct me on that, I haven't seen VOTOMS yet) might well have been the last mecha show that's tried for a more realistic approach. The fact that most engagements in Code Geass are fought at 100m or less shows that it's not even interested in realism.

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

Makes writing fics so hard because I'm so tempted to use tactics and intelligence and prove why I'm right and the writers of series are crazy.

As the saying goes, there are no great strategists and very few competent tacticians in anime.

Originally Posted by Var

Well, if they were to use technology we have today... there would be no point in Mechs. By todays standards the only thing a bipedal mech would have over a tank or soldier is its ability to have a large "Shoot me here" symbol written on its power generator. Woo for chemical turbines...

Technically speaking, there's pretty much no point in having bipedal mecha outside of the most unusual roles, regardless of the technology we have access to.

[JagdPanther]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

That's sort of the trend for mecha shows for a very long time. VOTOMS (please correct me on that, I haven't seen VOTOMS yet) might well have been the last mecha show that's tried for a more realistic approach. The fact that most engagements in Code Geass are fought at 100m or less shows that it's not even interested in realism.

Well, if you're in an urban environment engagements that close will be inevitable, so I don't think that's really an indicator that they aren't interested in realism at all.

There are other slightly more obvious ones. LOL

As the saying goes, there are no great strategists and very few competent tacticians in anime.

And if they are, they're usually an enemy and they're beaten by the Hero Plot Device.



Anyway...

Has anyone here every played any of the Gungriffon games before? The mechs in CG remind me a lot of the AWGS from those games in that the Knightmare Frames rarely ever walk, and instead use deployable wheels on the feet, just like the AWGS do.

The Lancelot looks a lot like the HIGH-MACS III, too. And the Glasgow *kinda* reminds me of the JagdPanther with the abdominal cannon.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

Well, if you're in an urban environment engagements that close will be inevitable, so I don't think that's really an indicator that they aren't interested in realism at all.

There are other slightly more obvious ones. LOL

The most obvious one would be the fact that they actually think that melee weapons are anywhere near par with ranged ones, but it's shared with just about every mecha show for the last twenty years. And the only way to make this seem plausible is to chop combat ranges to point-blank - hence my point.

By the way, you should have watched enough by now to see that the closeness of the combat ranges has little to do with the battlefield.

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

Has anyone here every played any of the Gungriffon games before? The mechs in CG remind me a lot of the AWGS from those games in that the Knightmare Frames rarely ever walk, and instead use deployable wheels on the feet, just like the AWGS do.

Dreampod 9's Heavy Gears have that same feature. And I believe that both works are derived from VOTOMS which was one of the earlier shows to feature smaller, more realistic mecha, and rollerskates.

[JagdPanther]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

The most obvious one would be the fact that they actually think that melee weapons are anywhere near par with ranged ones, but it's shared with just about every mecha show for the last twenty years. And the only way to make this seem plausible is to chop combat ranges to point-blank - hence my point.

Oh, no doubt. I've had this argument before with people who actually believe you can survive an attack from a pistol-wielding enemy with a katana by deflecting bullets. O.o

By the way, you should have watched enough by now to see that the closeness of the combat ranges has little to do with the battlefield.

I have a hard time letting go of reality.

Dreampod 9's Heavy Gears have that same feature. And I believe that both works are derived from VOTOMS which was one of the earlier shows to feature smaller, more realistic mecha, and rollerskates.

Prolly do. It's just that they're so similar in this case (and it's all I have to work with) that I make this connection.

[Var]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Dreampod 9's Heavy Gears have that same feature. And I believe that both works are derived from VOTOMS which was one of the earlier shows to feature smaller, more realistic mecha, and rollerskates.

At this rate, we'll have a show with 'realistic', ballistics mechas that are only deployed in cramped settings and terrain that halts most traditional army units. I can dream can't I?

[Blue_Mercy]

I'm not sure if I should ask this in the Q@A or this section, but I'll just ask it here anyway.

Anybody want to take a guess as to how far the Hadron Cannon can fire after seeing episodes 24-25?

[JagdPanther]

Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy

I'm not sure if I should ask this in the Q@A or this section, but I'll just ask it here anyway.

Anybody want to take a guess as to how far the Hadron Cannon can fire after seeing episodes 24-25?

Well, it seems to be at least a few kilometers. The round-a-bout that Lulu did to destroy the entire air armada makes it a good-deal of range.... Though I think scale made it seem like a shorter distance.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Var

At this rate, we'll have a show with 'realistic', ballistics mechas that are only deployed in cramped settings and terrain that halts most traditional army units. I can dream can't I?

Nah... If it were realistic, it'd play out something like this:

Two countries go to war over very difficult terrain (think Siachen glacier). One of them has recently made major technological breakthroughs in locomotion and control mechanisms and manage to secretly field large numbers of mecha (and they even have swords!) while their enemies can only field infantry units backed up by a smattering of tracked vehicles. Of course, the infantry are much more effective militarily, so they completely stomp the mecha.

Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy

Anybody want to take a guess as to how far the Hadron Cannon can fire after seeing episodes 24-25?

It's hard to tell, especially without knowing how big the targets were. But it was probably at least 3-4km.


Off-topic:

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

Oh, no doubt. I've had this argument before with people who actually believe you can survive an attack from a pistol-wielding enemy with a katana by deflecting bullets. O.o

Oh course you can; you'd end up making your enemy laugh too hard to shoot straight - after he puts a couple of bullets in you! By the way, did that genius explain why nobody trains police officers in katanas instead of firearms?

[JagdPanther]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Of course, the infantry are much more effective militarily, so they completely stomp the mecha.

THANK YOU.

*grumble*grumble*

I always put that out there...

Off-topic:

Oh course you can; you'd end up making your enemy laugh too hard to shoot straight - after he puts a couple of bullets in you! By the way, did that genius explain why nobody trains police officers in katanas instead of firearms?

We never get that far, usually. Once they whip out the videos of a held-in-place katana splitting a .45 round down the center fired from a held-in-place pistol, it's all over. You can't get through to them. >_>

[Var]

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

THANK YOU.

*grumble*grumble*

I always put that out there...

We never get that far, usually. Once they whip out the videos of a held-in-place katana splitting a .45 round down the center fired from a held-in-place pistol, it's all over. You can't get through to them. >_>

Thats when you show them the video of a katana user splitting a bullet then getting mowed down by the other bullets in the clip.

It'd be interesting if they build the mechs with carbon nanotube technology, using the shock plates, maybe then they'd be useful for... something.

[anti-random]

why don;t we all just get the lambda driver in Code Geass. it'll be great

[Southern Cross]

Eh, something that interests me a lot is how aircraft and the entire concept of air dominance seems to be negated in Code Geass. It probably has something to do with the lack of development on jet engines, from what I'm observing.

I don't believe mechas can completely negate the necessity or even option of aircraft deployment in battle, as their weaponry doesn't seem too suited for AA use. I mean, a squad of tactical bombers with appropriate escort and ground support could probably be able to destroy mechas with ease, although I may be underestimating the general mecha speed capabilities. Hmmm...

[HunterRequiem]

Remember, typically, in anime, missiles are crap. They have the range of a machine gun (if you're lucky). The fact of the mater is that, right now, most of modern conventional warfare is done with, guess what, missiles. Come to think of it, in anime, long range stuff in general is nonexistant. Why? Well, if you made a story where 75% of battle is done with people you can't see at all, why would you bother watching? Take the Fauklands war, where most of the action all of the RN ships saw was either shooting down Mirages with their missiles, or trying to dodge exocet antiship missiles. But for taking down, perhaps cornellia's army...give me a wing of F-35s and about 10 minutes. I'll put a Maverik missile in each knightmare.
Then again, I'm not complaining. Code Geass is, as I said before, a lot more realistic then others. In the end, the human form is actually pretty sucky, but CG does a pretty nice job of showing what would really be the best form of bipedal vehicles. I wonder if we'll ever see an anime about a tank crew? (Tank SWAT doesn't count)

off topic

You know, I remember there was a report of a guy in the UK who went after a cop with a katana and tried to block the bullets. Needless to say, he's dead now.