The Novel and Manga of Haruhi Suzumiya

[Twisted Reality]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

So I mean, although I can agree with Twisted Reality above in saying that I like the characters for who they are, Haruhi being who she is because Kyon willed it to be so is just a bit too meta for me.

Insofar as it is possible to, how much have you willed anything into being? What makes you think the same thing necessarily applies to a god? Or as far as we can tell, an effect with no discernible cause?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Twisted Reality

Insofar as it is possible to, how much have you willed anything into being? What makes you think the same thing necessarily applies to a god? Or as far as we can tell, an effect with no discernible cause?

Saying "anything is possible" is not actually proof of anything. Your argument could be applied for any other character, not just exclusive to Kyon. As I said in the past, someone like Tsuruya has as much current evidence of being a God as Kyon does. Thus unless you can prove why Kyon could be a God while Tsuruya isn't, Kyonisim does not hold water.

[jayfoxpox]

Originally Posted by KeitaroNagato

Have you read the novels?
I guess you are comparing the anime and the light-novels, right ?

Different forum, and besides, who frekken cares if Mikuru is Kyon's sister, if they are... good for them.

Why I'm feeling this way about it, well normally I'm always positive in here, no matter what, all those things about Mikuru and Kyon being related in some ways its possible. If they are, then why didnt Mikuru open those sweet lips of hers and say something? In which she didn't, so that means they are.....or they are not.

I'm not 100% sure about the Mikuru and Kyon gene pool relation, but nowadays scientists stated that we are related to someone at the other side of the world.

And about Yuki.... remember she is an alien, so she is not human, was not born o earth, was created somewhere out there... perhaps at the other side of the universe.... but who knows and does it really matter?
She is on earth observing and collecting data about Haruhi and Kyon, this silent member of the SOS Brigade is the glue of the SOS Brigade.
1. She have helped out Kyon many of times
2. She show emotions that Kyon pick up on. And he even know now how to "read" Nagato (pun intended ) at times. At this, Nagato at least have someone to lean on.
3. Nagato at least by the 9th light-novel, is will to protect all members of the SOS Brigade.
The reason i mention Nagato is because I wanted to clear a few details about her, because this member is very very very important in the events that have and will occur through out the light- novels.

Well, there is more to that, but right now I frekken don't care at the moment. C u all soon yo.

Ive read the novels it just that Since I didn't like that episode I didnt bother reading that chapter so I skipped it. Unless the anime changed a couple of details then I guess I was unaware of it . I just assumed that it would had have the same details.

[KeitaroNagato]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Saying "anything is possible" is not actually proof of anything. Your argument could be applied for any other character, not just exclusive to Kyon. As I said in the past, someone like Tsuruya has as much current evidence of being a God as Kyon does. Thus unless you can prove why Kyon could be a God while Tsuruya isn't, Kyonisim does not hold water.

@Vallen Chaos Valiant:
You mention that Tsuruya being a God as much as Kyon does, but evidence don't hold water. My question is that in the light-novels it always leads to being Haruhi doing all the creations of the universe, does that means Kyon is the creation from Haruhi, and thus everything in the universe is just an Illusion, a dream?
Almost MATRIX-LIKE?

Thank you
Domo arigato

[Alesiopdv]

Ahhhhhh!! Now I get it!!!! Finally!!

Mikuru is actually Kyon and Tsuruya daughter from .... THE FUTURE!! Thats why she is so attached to her "mom and dad" in the "present".

[ClockWorkAngel]

Originally Posted by Alesiopdv

Ahhhhhh!! Now I get it!!!! Finally!!

Mikuru is actually Kyon and Tsuruya daughter from .... THE FUTURE!! Thats why she is so attached to her "mom and dad" in the "present".

Wait... what?

Thought there is alot of "evidence" leaning towards Kyonism and its many variants, let us not forget the big picture. Kyon has the power to of course intervene and has influence over Haruhi, but other than that, he has no real power what so ever. Like Koizumi said, he is 100% normal human.

Remember! The absence of evidence is not the evidence of innocence!

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by ClockWorkAngel

Wait... what?

Thought there is alot of "evidence" leaning towards Kyonism and its many variants, let us not forget the big picture. Kyon has the power to of course intervene and has influence over Haruhi, but other than that, he has no real power what so ever. Like Koizumi said, he is 100% normal human.

Remember! The absence of evidence is not the evidence of innocence!

Wasn't it Haruhi who said that the lack of anything suspicious is suspicious?

[KeitaroNagato]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Wasn't it Haruhi who said that the lack of anything suspicious is suspicious?

ok, i'm now getting confused about the Kyoniism and Haruhiism.

if its kyoniism, then everything is been done by Kyon's doings. If that's true then why he would be transfer to an alternate universe that was created by Haruhi. Thus, its actually Kyon that wanted to be transfer to a new universe with Haruhi then not the other way around?

So this is Kyon's Matrix-like universe, LOL

Thank you
domo arigato

[Kristen]

Originally Posted by KeitaroNagato

ok, i'm now getting confused about the Kyoniism and Haruhiism.

if its kyoniism, then everything is been done by Kyon's doings. If that's true then why he would be transfer to an alternate universe that was created by Haruhi. Thus, its actually Kyon that wanted to be transfer to a new universe with Haruhi then not the other way around?

So this is Kyon's Matrix-like universe, LOL

Thank you
domo arigato

Could be that Kyon wanted to force her into that situation so he could steal a kiss from her where she'd just recall everything as a dream.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by ChrissieXD

Could be that Kyon wanted to force her into that situation so he could steal a kiss from her where she'd just recall everything as a dream.

I really don't think of Kyon as going that far just to kiss Haruhi. Mikuru, maybe, by not Haruhi.

[Eak]

I would hate the break the ice in this somewhat heated debate.. but any news on Vol. 10 or any related/previous translations?

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Eak

I would hate the break the ice in this somewhat heated debate.. but any news on Vol. 10 or any related/previous translations?

Vol 10 isn't out yet.

That's all we know.

[PastPrime]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Vol 10 isn't out yet.

That's all we know.

Well, we do know that the title is supposed to be "The Astonishment of Suzumiya Haruhi", which makes me think that she may, in at least one of the timelines, learn the truth.

[panzerfan]

I will come in defense of Vallen Chaos Valiant on the counterpoint with Tsuruya. Tsuruya has exhibited unusual connection (and a confirmed link) to the Agency and more than once she has expressed to Kyon that she wishes to continue her assistance on the sideline over what is happening. She sense of timing to the aid of the SOS Brigade can be said as great a sense as the one exhibited from 'Jesus Yamato' in SEED DESTINY... plus that she seems to have a perspective broader than most, maybe equal to that of Kyon.

However, merely saying what Kyon can be to me is not very concrete. If I am thinking from Kyon's shoes, the idea of dwelling on what one can be does no comfort. The only thing that matters should be what the character in question is now. That is why I cannot accept the 'Kyon is not mere mortal' argument, for if Kyon, the realist observer based on what he sees and thinks of right now concludes that he is a mortal, would leave all possibility that he is not a mortal out of the picture.

[Sol Falling]

heh. So what you're saying is, if Kyon had the power to change reality to reflect his understanding of it, then if Kyon understood himself to be a 'normal human', his power would necessarily make it so?

This reflects my thoughts on another matter. Didn't Koizumi mention, in Volume 8 or 9, that Haruhi's powers seemed to be weakening? Like, over the course of her interactions with Kyon and the SOS Brigade since she formed it 'a year ago'. What could be the cause?

My speculation is that Haruhi's powers are in direct opposition to her sense of 'reality' or 'rationality'. As Koizumi mentioned in Volume 1, on the concious level, Haruhi's 'understanding of reality' (my wording) is limited by rationality just like any other person's. The exercise of her powers only occurs on the subconscious level; she doesn't rationally believe that any of the things she wants will happen, and when they do, she thinks it's just chance.

Anyway, that's a bit off topic. So the idea is, Haruhi's powers are weakening because Haruhi has begun to believe (subconsciously, consciously she already knew it) less and less in the possibility of her powers existing. And the reason for her decline in that belief is because of the increase in satisfaction she is recieving from doing 'normal, rational' things, as a result of the SOS Brigade (and Kyon). So therefore, Haruhi's powers will disappear the moment she becomes satisfied with the world as she understands it. Or something like that.

[KeitaroNagato]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

heh. So what you're saying is, if Kyon had the power to change reality to reflect his understanding of it, then if Kyon understood himself to be a 'normal human', his power would necessarily make it so?

This reflects my thoughts on another matter. Didn't Koizumi mention, in Volume 8 or 9, that Haruhi's powers seemed to be weakening? Like, over the course of her interactions with Kyon and the SOS Brigade since she formed it 'a year ago'. What could be the cause?

My speculation is that Haruhi's powers are in direct opposition to her sense of 'reality' or 'rationality'. As Koizumi mentioned in Volume 1, on the concious level, Haruhi's 'understanding or reality' (my wording) is limited by rationality just like any other person's. The exercise of her powers only occurs on the subconcious level; she doesn't rationally believe that any of the things she wants will happen, and when they do, she thinks it's just chance.

Anyway, that's a bit off topic. So the idea is, Haruhi's powers are weakening because Haruhi has begun to believe (subconciously, conciously she already knew it) less and less in the possibility of her powers existing. And the reason for her decline in that belief is because of the increase in satisfaction she is recieving from doing 'normal, rational' things, as a result of the SOS Brigade (and Kyon). So therefore, Haruhi's powers will disappear the moment she becomes satisfied with the world as she understands it. Or something like that.

I believe it was in vol9 when Koizumi mention about the weakening of Haruhi powers.

Is it because her encounter with Sasaki crew?
Or the fact that Kyon never mentioned to her about his past, or even Sasaki as been his friend before her.

The power of Haruhi may be weakening based on jealousy of Sasaki, that in sense of being a normal human being, with normal day circumstances. As humans, we have all different emotions and feelings, and there are times when we cannot sort out, what we are feeling at that moment. Thus, is what we call being normal is.

Another point, yes Haruhi is becoming more or less a normal girl, she is more interactive with her surroundings and not only with her SOS-Brigade memebers... Volleyball anyone.

It's also seems that more she interacts with Kyon, the more less the idea of being something else or experiencing something out of the ordinary, is coming a normal routine. A healthy routine, that continues developing for Haruhi.

In sense, we must give thanks to Kyon for that.

Thank you
Domo Arigato

[Twisted Reality]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Saying "anything is possible" is not actually proof of anything. Your argument could be applied for any other character, not just exclusive to Kyon. As I said in the past, someone like Tsuruya has as much current evidence of being a God as Kyon does. Thus unless you can prove why Kyon could be a God while Tsuruya isn't, Kyonisim does not hold water.

That is precisely what I am saying.

Mind you, there is no proof positive that Haruhi is a god either. I am not speaking in hard terms of absolutist proof.

The beauty of the whole thing is that Kyon, or Haruhi, for that matter, have every possibility of being everything or nothing. Kyon doesn't have to be *the* God or even *a* god. But the possibility that he might be is hilarious and intriguing, in and of itself.

It brings a bit of mystery to the show. Whether Haruhi and Kyon are divinely ordained to meet, or only met out of some clumsy coincidence, it's just one of those things that add depth.

Either way, I don't picture Nagaru making himself explicit on the matter in the future.

[KeitaroNagato]

Originally Posted by ChrissieXD

Could be that Kyon wanted to force her into that situation so he could steal a kiss from her where she'd just recall everything as a dream.

remember after when Kyon and Haruhi came back to the real world, Koizumi mention after that the real world could being recreated again by Haruhi overnight.
my question is when the "alternative" universe was created by her, did the "real" one was still in existance or was it already in the process of being extinct?

please some one can shine a light to this puzzle.

thank you
Domo arigato

[panzerfan]

Reality is only defined as 'whatever Kyon the observer perceives as the point of origin'. The point of reference in Kyon is based on all of his memory regarding the his surroundings, so Kyon has the final say on if he's in the world that is where he truly belongs to. This story is told from his perspective, that is why when the audience looks at Kyon, the concrete given is that you will always look from his behalf, and he tells it as he sees it.

This is why I stated that it is irrelevant whether or not if Kyon has divine power if he does not perceive himself in such a fashion. He does perceive Haruhi as an anomaly, and the leader of SOS Brigade who will act in the interests of her brigade, and that she is calmer now. I am not even going to make the assumption that Kyon makes whatever he thinks 'the way it is', but only arguing that he has at least the power to make whatever he thinks represent what he is, and nothing more.

I personally am much more interested with Kyon having to render judgment on Tachibana, Kuyoh and Fujiwara. By this point, I presented my argument in how that Sasaki has no reason nor the will to seize the initiative and turn the course of the universe at this point, while Fujiwara could care less about who is at the helm. Tachibana fears Haruhi as an unpredictable agent of change, while almost nothing is known about Suoh.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by panzerfan

Reality is only defined as 'whatever Kyon the observer perceives as the point of origin'. The point of reference in Kyon is based on all of his memory regarding the his surroundings, so Kyon has the final say on if he's in the world that is where he truly belongs to. This story is told from his perspective, that is why when the audience looks at Kyon, the concrete given is that you will always look from his behalf, and he tells it as he sees it.

This is why I stated that it is irrelevant whether or not if Kyon has divine power if he does not perceive himself in such a fashion. He does perceive Haruhi as an anomaly, and the leader of SOS Brigade who will act in the interests of her brigade, and that she is calmer now. I am not even going to make the assumption that Kyon makes whatever he thinks 'the way it is', but only arguing that he has at least the power to make whatever he thinks represent what he is, and nothing more.

I personally am much more interested with Kyon having to render judgment on Tachibana, Kuyoh and Fujiwara. By this point, I presented my argument in how that Sasaki has no reason nor the will to seize the initiative and turn the course of the universe at this point, while Fujiwara could care less about who is at the helm. Tachibana fears Haruhi as an unpredictable agent of change, while almost nothing is known about Suoh.

Except that she's probably behind Yuki's sickness.

And as for Fujiwara, we do know that he "hates following the plot, especially when he already knows the ending". He might be trying to change the future?