Soul Slayers Role in Determination of Strength

[sayde]

This thread is created in order to ask for opinions on how much a soul slayers ability plays a role in determining a death god's/espada's true potential and strength versus hard work and skill.

I'm asking because it's something I've been wondering about off and on for awhile now. Is hard work, skill, determination, and shear will power the more important qualities for a Shinigami/espada to have? Or is it possible for the abilities of ones shikai and bankai to sometimes create gaps in power that are simply to huge to overcome?

For example, in one scenario, we have the battle between Kenpachi vs Tousen & Komamura (sp?). Clearly in this case, a bankai's ability did not necessarily mean victory for Tousen and Komamura.

Then we have another extreme case in the form of Aizen, who's shikai alone possesses the most broken/cheapest ability shown in the series thus far. With an ability like complete hypnosis, Aizen doesn't necessarily need to be a skilled fighter, to prove extremely deadly. So in this example, can one really hope to overcome something like complete hypnosis simply by having all the other traits that go into defining what makes a powerful warrior?

I guess what my real question comes down to is, whether or not in bleach, it's the sword that makes the man, or if it's the other way around. Plot protection put aside, are a shinigami/espada's power more closely linked to luck (and the innate abilities that lie within there soul slayers), or does hard work and skill still matter more so in the end?

[Kyttie]

well I don't think there's an easy answer to this :\

but if you think about it, it's been said, that the size of a soul slayer is directly proportional to its' owners reietsu. I would take that as meaning that the type of soul slayer you get, and its' shikai, would also be directly linked to its' owner (or its' owners reietsu).

as we've seen with Ichigo, his Shikai lives within him, and I'm guessing so does everyone elses, meaning that most likely, the Shikai is created through your soul.. meaning the stronger you are naturally, or the more potential you have, the stronger your Shikai is...

at least, that's what I think :\

[djthegreat88]

well byakuya outclassed ichigo as a complete fighter but ichigo had the perfect bankai ability to counter byakuyas bankai. kenpachi and ichigo have huge reitsu levels so its probably the soul slayers strenght and the skill of the person combined

[HayashiTakara]

IMO, you are born with a certain potential, you can't exceed that potential no matter what, but if you don't do anything you won't reach that potential either. But there are outside influences as well. But, if you look at a normal Shinigami, they are "born" with their potentials set in stone from when they were "alive" its the same with Hollows, like lets say, someone whos still alive have massive Reiatsu Potential, then dies, when is born into S.S. his potential can be realized if he trains properly, his first sign would be hunger of course. But, if the same person didn't properly go to S.S. he'll be a super powerful Hollow.

[Amirali]

Originally Posted by sayde

I'm asking because it's something I've been wondering about off and on for awhile now. Is hard work, skill, determination, and shear will power the more important qualities for a Shinigami/espada to have? Or is it possible for the abilities of ones shikai and bankai to sometimes create gaps in power that are simply to huge to overcome?

The message of Bleach throughout has been that hard work/training isn't enough if you don't have the talent. Certain gulfs in power are just too vast to be bridged only by effort. We saw Byakuya crush and humiliate Renji, despite Renji having worked tirelessly to achieve bankai. Chad worked his ass off so that he would be useful in hueco Mundo only to be torn to bits by Noi. The same thing that happened when he fought Shunsui in soul society. Orihime trained with Rukia for a month to become stronger.......only to be promptly kidnapped by Ulqui.
Kubo seems to make a point of showing his characters trying to work hard so that we have hopes for them............only to have them crushed when it comes to a true test. Well, Ishida and Ichigo excepted. In the Bleach universe , hard work only pays off if you have great talent to begin with.

[HayashiTakara]

Orihime isn't a good example... she lacks the instinct of a fighter... But, if you keep up with the manga you'll know that Orihime is...

Spoiler for manga:

The most powerful character in the bleach universe.

[yezhanquan]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Orihime isn't a good example... she lacks the instinct of a fighter... But, if you keep up with the manga you'll know that Orihime is...

Spoiler for manga:

The most powerful character in the bleach universe.

Well, in that aspect, she reminds me of Suzumiya Haruhi. But, back on topic...

Actually, Byakuya has been training for eons to perfect his bankai. He may be a "new" captain, but he has been working his butt off. I think he's the example of talent+hard work in Bleach.

[Amirali]

Heh, does this whole bit about "talent + hard work" remind anyone of Kenichi?

[HayashiTakara]

You know... I think if Ichigo were to die in front of her... she'll probably go ballistic and undo all of reality... lol, but then again... Orihime is capable of...

Spoiler for Orihime:

Bringing back the dead >_>........ that is such a h4x ability...

[yezhanquan]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

You know... I think if Ichigo were to die in front of her... she'll probably go ballistic and undo all of reality... lol, but then again... Orihime is capable of...

Spoiler for Orihime:

Bringing back the dead >_>........ that is such a h4x ability...

Hence, the reference to Suzumiya. Now, if Aizen can somehow find out how she does it, and duplicate it.... (In fact, I think that is more important to Aizen than having her around.)

[HayashiTakara]

We already know why Aizen wants Orihime... its impossible to recreate her ability, even the chubby dude from the Vizard, although similar in nature, his is nowhere near Orihime's, heck she bypassed his super amazing shields without even thinking. Now we know that Orihime got her powers awakened from being influenced by Ichigo's Reiatsu... the question is.... would the powers still "awaken" eventually? without Ichigo's influence?

[yezhanquan]

Spoiler for speculation?:

I'm guessing that Aizen had an idea of how powerful Orihime actually is. It's like keeping a tame tiger in your home. I would expect Aizen to realise that no matter how submissive Orihime is on the surface, she is able to upset his plans very easily.

Since it's possible for her abilities to surface, it's entirely possible to think that there IS a way to duplicate it, and given Aizen's ambition, he won't take "no" for an answer.

[HayashiTakara]

I really doubt thats his goal... otherwise there would've been signs of it already. He realizes her powers and its potentials and simply wants to take advantage of it to speed up his plans.

[Pyrokinetic]

If your shikai and bankai are in proportion of the shinigami reatsu or should i say they reflect the shinigami's reatsu as someone mentioned earlier about aizen then this makes me wonder about kenpachi's strength because despite he dont have a bankai and he dont know how to use his shikai nor does he know how to use kido, he still fights in par with captains who possesses shikai and bankai. he has all the warrior traits and the thing is he dont need to train since all he does is fight. this is why i think he is potentially one of the strongest character in the show.

[Blerghovic]

If you look carefully you'll see that Zangetsu told Ichigo once that 'my power is your power Ichigo, trust in your own strength'(he said this in response to Ichigo asking Zangetsu to lend him his stength, AGAIN).

[lequory]

This thread is kinda similar to the thread I was trying to get created but my reason for the thread was to make a correlation between the crescent moon constantly being shown in the background and if Aizen and Ichigo's Zanpaktou's are in direct opposition to each other.

I was thinking of maybe theres someone with a bankai that can counter aizens because as it is everyones pretty screwed because of not being able to see the real aizen and seeing how his move requires sight the only person capable of stopping him is tousan who is on aizens side then i remembered ichigos zanpakuto is called cutting moon which probably has the ability to counter aizens illusions since aizens zanpakuto is centered around the moon but i have no idea if ichigo will do this but i think tite kubo named ichigos zanpakuto cutting moon for the purpose of vs aizen which then leads me to think bleach may end after he defeats aizen what does everyone else think on the matter.

What do you guys think?

[HayashiTakara]

interesting theory, never thought about it like that.

but personally, I don't want Ichigo to beat Aizen. I think Orihime should have the honours of undoing his existence... literally. XP

[sayde]

wow. I thought this topic was going to get forgotten. Glad to see I was proven wrong. It's also nice to read a variety of opinions on the subject. With regards to the last 2 posts, I've theorized that Orihime might have a hand in Aizen's defeat if her ability can allow her to reject/dispel complete hypnosis on anyone who's been affected by it. But I don't read the manga, so I'm not really sure exactly if she's capable of doing that or not. Plus, if she's really as powerful as people have said she is, I don't see why Ichigo would even need to fight him in the first place.

Speaking of Orihime, she seems like a good example of what I'm talking about since HayashiTakara mentioned that she's

Spoiler for manga:

"The most powerful character in the bleach universe." So tell me, could Orihime's ability really have been created within her based on her hidden potential skill or strength? Or did she get her ability through luck alone thanks to Kubo Tite?

.

[HayashiTakara]

I think Kubo created Orihime with this in mind, if you listen to her chants it gives it away, she's basically rejecting "God's Plan" She's like the anti-thesis.

[sayde]

^^that was pretty informative. Thank you for that.