True Tears - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[RevRayCool]

Originally Posted by DanielSong39

Ah, I see you haven't watched enough Asian dramas. Watch a few and you'll see that these kind of things are commonplace in that medium...

I've seen enough drama and anime to see those kinds of characters appear all the time. They annoy me, but I continue watching all the same. Same with True Tears... I'll most likely watch till the end in hopes to be surprised, in the least (though I rarely am... *sigh*).

Originally Posted by zAKai

I think the point he's trying to make (beyond the fact that you're trying to use your Asian ethnic background and your minor in Japanese to establish your credibility, which is a no-no in itself on the Interweb, haha) is that one cannot deny that an anime has cultural influences from the country of origin.

I just think that big generalizations will get people into trouble on online discussions, so (to avoid the possible flame war and get back on topic)... maybe it's part of Asian culture to lack communication, maybe it's not. However, we can definitely be sure to say that there are many families, Asian or not, that may lack an open-channel of dialogue (and the Nakagami family sure lacks one, big time).

I wasn't trying to sound credible, just felt I was being attacked for being "uncultured" when I try not to be. Sorry for sounding defensive. Also, I do believe anime reflects Japanese culture to some degree, though not to the point of being a definitive model of it. I've had more than enough Japanese teachers tell me that anime is a creation of the devil, yet I still watch it, haha.

Originally Posted by apropervillain

Culture plays a big part in personality. Since when is it okay to question your parents? Since when is it okay to disrespect them? Aren't Asian girls conservative? In America, we see people disrespecting their parents all the time, but do you see that in alot of Asian countries? Do Americans have the same concept of family as Asians do?

To disrespect and to doubt are two different things. I still find it rather foolish for Hiromi to never consider the possibility that Shin's mom was lying. As a poster already said in this thread though, I rather not have this thread turn into a flame war so I'll leave it at that.

[jaisrh]

Originally Posted by vio5555

I really have to wonder whether some of you are watching the same show as the rest of us.

Its been abundantly clear that even if Hiromi may have had some small thing for Jun at some point in the show or past that it was nowhere near what she's felt for Shin for all these years. In my reading of the scene where she claims she likes No.4, I see it as her just saying something acceptable as an answer to the question since she doesn't dislike No.4 and it would be the most acceptable response. The furthest her feelings seem to go is maybe at most a mini-crush at some point in time but even that seems tenuous.

Shin is the love of her life, just as he is the love of Noe's life and the love of Ai's life (to this point anyways from all indications in the anime).

Obviously he has to end up with one of these girls. The whole Jun/Hiromi thing has been all smoke and mirrors for 10 episodes now; until we have some indication that there's something more real, its just idle speculation.

People come in all types. Some can see things impartially while others can't help letting their strong bias distort their view of what's going on. Most people fall somewhere in between. Some people are better at putting themselves in the shoes of the character to relate to them while others find it easy to judge without giving it the proper perspective.

I find it amusing actually to see the more extreme cases of bias showing up in a post. They draw the same reaction from me that you had when reading them.

[w00tness]

Originally Posted by apropervillain

Culture plays a big part in personality. Since when is it okay to question your parents? Since when is it okay to disrespect them? Aren't Asian girls conservative? In America, we see people disrespecting their parents all the time, but do you see that in alot of Asian countries? Do Americans have the same concept of family as Asians do?

So true. On the topic of respect, we even have different meanings to the word respect. A lot of subjects are taboo in asian culture (at least, where I come from), and questioning your parents is one of them. Not only do you not question them, you do not confront them, nor do anything that can be considered as disrespect to them.

I remember there was once, I was in my rebellious teen years, and my dad had just scolded me for something. I was angry, and so during meal time when he asked me a question I ignored him, and he sent a bowl flying at my head. Heh. Not sure if people raised in a "white" environment will understand (this includes non-whites who grew up in the west)

[Falkor]

Originally Posted by RevRayCool

*snip*

To disrespect and to doubt are two different things. I still find it rather foolish for Hiromi to never consider the possibility that Shin's mom was lying. As a poster already said in this thread though, I rather not have this thread turn into a flame war so I'll leave it at that.

She did consider the possibility of being lied by Shin’s mother, though it was implied rather than explicit. You have first the revelation in which she says something along the lines of “your father may be my real father” (not the exact quote). If you take into account this and many other scenes in which she comes very close to Shin, it’s not that difficult to believe that she at one moment allowed herself to believe it was all a lie, although other factors may apply as well.

[Kaoru Chujo]

"Comprendre, c'est pardonner." (To understand is to forgive -- Madame de Stael, Corinne, 1807).

As far as I'm concerned, everyone in this show has had good and sufficient reasons to act as they have. I like them all, from the inside. They're all human, like you and me. Or at least like me, lol.

Now that I've seen a Chinese sub, I realize that Ai actually was saying to Shin that she had "graduated" from him. And prior to that, she had thanked Noe for freeing her from Nobuse, and told her she had loved (past tense) Shin. Sure, that's not quite true. But I'd rather call it wishful thinking than a lie.

And Jun has had responsibility for his sister for years. He tries his best to make her happy, even though he can see she is not. He is even willing to go so far as to ask someone to go out with her, since he cannot do that himself, much as he would like to. Is this dangerous megalomania or a deep feeling of love and responsibility? Both.

Hiromi comes to this household in part because of her affection for Shin. But once there, she finds that she cannot touch him, and they are in two solitudes. She wants to break through, but like Jun, she knows she mustn't (even though she happens to be wrong about that). I find it very realistic that she would accept what her stepmother says as true and not ask her stepfather or anyone else. How do you broach such a shameful subject with someone, in an Asian or even an American household?

Shin is just a mother's boy in his mid-teens, our everyman. He does not know how to approach the girl of his dreams. He is manipulated by her, for what she thinks are good reasons, and by Jun, for the sake of Noe. And he actually does feel love for Noe -- just not love of anywhere near the same intensity as for Hiromi, for whom he has been nurturing love in his innocent heart for years.

But it is certainly true that the mild-mannered Shin and Hiromi end by causing huge upset and heartbreak to Noe and Jun, who seemed earlier to be so strong and self-sufficient.

The sibling/not thing may have been a cheap trick, but the characters remain deep and fascinating.

[golthin]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

Now that I've seen a Chinese sub, I realize that Ai actually was saying to Shin that she had "graduated" from him. And prior to that, she had thanked Noe for freeing her from Nobuse, and told her she had loved (past tense) Shin. Sure, that's not quite true. But I'd rather call it wishful thinking than a lie.

I was going to reply to your question, but I didn't feel like getting into an argument about Past tenses in Japanese (Sukida and SukidaTA might sound similar but one is present tense while the other is past tense). I call lying as lying, even if you want to be kind and call it wishful thinking.
She also lied to Shin about "graduating or getting over him" it will be interesting to see what the subbers use in that line. In English you don't say"I graduated from you", but most likely "I am over you" or "Passed you".

By what Aiko tells Noe about freeing her from Nobuse, it seems Aiko really wanted to get out of the relationship badly. So my take on the situation was pretty good. She really was using Nobuse as bait for shin.

[vio5555]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

But it is certainly true that the mild-mannered Shin and Hiromi end by causing huge upset and heartbreak to Noe and Jun, who seemed earlier to be so strong and self-sufficient.

This is probably the only line I disagree with to some extent. Shin is going to cause major heartbreak for 2 of the girls simply by how the scenario of the story has gone. The whole story has been built to maximize on the unhappiness of 2 of the 3 girls even though this has enabled these girls to be better fleshed out as a result. In most of these animes, the "3rd girl" in Aiko's spot would have never been as forward and just been content to watch the main two girls fight it out over the guy but here she takes a stand.

As Alfred Lord Tennyson would have said about this series, "Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all." Even if his specific form of loss was different, his quote probably encapsulates my disagreement with your statement holistically.

Noe was self-sufficient insofar as she had never really experienced love in human terms, but thats probably a cost that outweighs the experience that she's going through to be honest. Even though it tears Jun up to see this and he tries to manipulate the situation so the results are beneficial to her, I still don't think you can call the Jun and Noe of before, "strong and self-sufficient" with the inclination that that's a beneficial thing, at best that was a house of cards and false or no tears.

[tun]

Originally Posted by apropervillain

Thanks for posting your credentials, too bad it does nothing for your argument. All you can say is no? I'm assuming you're Asian and grew up in America, which is completely different from growing up in your home country. And why not bring up culture? I'm pretty sure there are culture specific themes in True Tears, such as the dance that Shinichiro has to perform, the taking off of shoes indoors, and the such. There is definately a cultural aspect to anime, so please don't just ignore it and downplay it.

So being Asian American means you learn absolutely nothing about your Asian heritage/culture? lmao

While I agree that the reaction to the kids not questioning what the parents tell them is very American/Western, that doesn't mean Asians viewers aren't equally frustrated by it either. Just because not talking back to your elders is a cultural norm, doesn't mean that the person isn't thinking about it.

[Kaoru Chujo]

I agree with what you say, vio5555. I didn't actually say that Jun and Noe were strong and self-sufficient, I said they "seemed" that way. Now we know that their strength was "a house of cards," as you say. I look forward to seeing how Jun and Noe achieve some closure and find a way forward as the story progresses.

Originally Posted by golthin

I was going to reply to your question, but I didn't feel like getting into an argument about Past tenses in Japanese.... She really was using Nobuse as bait for shin.

Thanks for not getting into it. I miss things in the raw, but the zh sub helps me hear them, and she clearly did say suki datta. I wouldn't have argued about the text, though, since I knew I didn't necessarily hear the words clearly that first time, as I said. I would, however, argue, that her saying "I loved Shinichiro" doesn't exclude her still loving him, but referred to how she felt when she was trying to get free of Nobuse, who was hanging on despite her clearly telling him it was over. I didn't know whether "sotsugyo suru" was a normal idiom for "got over," so I just left it literal. So did the Chinese sub.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on Ai, though. I don't feel she is being made a villain. I don't see Nobuse as "bait" for Shin, but as a guy she liked a bit and who could keep her close to Shin. And with Shin there, she felt pressured into it in the first place. Not the best thing for her to do, but just human. She felt badly about it, but he was just happy to be with her, and at first refused to let her go even after he knew she liked Shin. I just feel for these people, even when their choices are not the best, and I find words like "lie" and "bait" to be excessive. But that's just me, and I'm not going to say you're wrong.

Just rewatching the scene in the rehearsal hall, is it true that Noe smiled a bit when Ai called her "Shinichiro's first girlfriend"? I wonder what that meant. And I noticed that Noe said "sayonara," as more like a final farewell, whereas Shin just used the more normal "mata" (see ya).

I also noticed that Noe said: "There's no such thing as a spell. If there were...." I thought she was thinking that if there were, she would put one on Shin to make him love her.

[RevRayCool]

Originally Posted by Falkor

She did consider the possibility of being lied by Shin’s mother, though it was implied rather than explicit. You have first the revelation in which she says something along the lines of “your father may be my real father” (not the exact quote). If you take into account this and many other scenes in which she comes very close to Shin, it’s not that difficult to believe that she at one moment allowed herself to believe it was all a lie, although other factors may apply as well.

Sounds more like she was deluding herself to what she already accepted as fact.

I don't know about others, but such a revelation about my life would drive me mad. I wouldn't be satisfied with the gray area, with the possibility of being the child of an affair. I would do anything in my power to either prove or disprove that possibility- rummaging through attics for clues (yeah, Shin's mom probably destroyed most evidence), contacting relatives on her side of the family, contacting her and Shin's parents friends during their school days, talking with Shin, DNA tests, anything.

My major problem with Hiromi is that doesn't try to resolve her problems directly. She allowed herself to accept the possibility that she was Shin's half-sister. She made no effort otherwise to try to disprove it. And the situation resolved itself when she runs away from home, nearly kills herself in a motorcycle accident, and has Shin's parents intervene. Once again in episode 10, she runs away and this time Shin chases after her, making their relationship stronger.

She continually decides to run away, and things get better for her while she does it. I find that quite annoying, to be honest... It's like she's being rewarded for being a coward.

[tun]

Originally Posted by golthin

I was going to reply to your question, but I didn't feel like getting into an argument about Past tenses in Japanese (Sukida and SukidaTA might sound similar but one is present tense while the other is past tense). I call lying as lying, even if you want to be kind and call it wishful thinking.
She also lied to Shin about "graduating or getting over him" it will be interesting to see what the subbers use in that line. In English you don't say"I graduated from you", but most likely "I am over you" or "Passed you".

By what Aiko tells Noe about freeing her from Nobuse, it seems Aiko really wanted to get out of the relationship badly. So my take on the situation was pretty good. She really was using Nobuse as bait for shin.

It'll be "I am over you" or something to that extent. Not that I know anything about fansubs for this show.

btw I think this line in question is when Ai is talking to Noe, not to Shin.

[vio5555]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

I agree with what you say, vio5555. I didn't actually say that Jun and Noe were strong and self-sufficient, I said they "seemed" that way. Now we know that their strength was "a house of cards," as you say. I look forward to seeing how Jun and Noe achieve some closure and find a way forward as the story progresses.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on Ai, though. I don't feel she is being made a villain. I don't see Nobuse as "bait" for Shin, but as a guy she liked a bit and who could keep her close to Shin. And with Shin there, she felt pressured into it in the first place. Not the best thing for her to do, but just human. She felt badly about it, but he was just happy to be with her, and at first refused to let her go even after he knew she liked Shin. I just feel for these people, even when their choices are not the best, and I find words like "lie" and "bait" to be excessive. But that's just me, and I'm not going to say you're wrong.

Alright, I misunderstood because it seemed from a glance as if you were putting Shin and Hiromi's impact on Jun and Noe in a negative light, but since you agreed with the gist of my post then that wasn't the case.

I agree with you on the point about Ai. Her strategy of getting closer to Shin by befriending Nobuse was a tactic that she explained to Shin himself in ep 3 or 4 (when talking about Hiromi's attempt to befriend Noe) but of course Shin didn't really pick up on it, so it was for the viewers' benefit. I feel as well that her intent towards Nobuse wasn't anywhere near as malicious as it would come across if it was refered to as "bait"ing, especially when the fact that Shin helped push them together and never understood Ai was the real problem in their relationship dynamic.

Originally Posted by RevRayCool

My major problem with Hiromi is that doesn't try to resolve her problems directly. She allowed herself to accept the possibility that she was Shin's half-sister. She made no effort otherwise to try to disprove it. And the situation resolved itself when she runs away from home, nearly kills herself in a motorcycle accident, and has Shin's parents intervene. Once again in episode 10, she runs away and this time Shin chases after her, making their relationship stronger.

She continually decides to run away, and things get better for her while she does it. I find that quite annoying, to be honest... It's like she's being rewarded for being a coward.

On the whole realization of being half-siblings, both Hiromi and Shin accepted it at face value and decided to separate themselves. I think you're taking too one-sided a view on that issue to just lay the blame at Hiromi's door. If anything, from a "3rd person 'impartial' point of view," I would expect Shin to confront his father immediately, since we as viewers know the strained relationship between Hiromi and Shin's mother and realize that Shin is clearly the favored child in the house. However, Shin won't act this way because he doesn't understand the people around him.

I don't see how you can blame Hiromi from leaving a house that she feels "oppressed" in; there's no way she could conceivably combat Shin's mom and upset the household order by consummating a relationship with Shin under that roof. After all, she's simply a guest and doesn't want to trouble Shin or his father with her issues with his mom.

In any case, I don't want to come off as an apologist for any one in the series, but pretty much everyone is just acting as proactively as they can within the constraints of their situations and character traits. Its easy enough to say that "Ai should do this, this, and this" or "Hiromi should do this, that, and that", but there are perfectly rational explanations for what they do within the constructs of the show that you should look at before offering a value judgment. Shin as well has those issues since he doesn't understand the motivations of the people around him.

Conversely, I understand why Noe is also so attractive because she doesn't have those problems as much as the others. Her character is far more uninhibited and so she has attained a higher level of self-expression compared to the far more reserved Ai and Hiromi, but you can't fault the other characters for how they act when you consider their individual situations as well as their traits.

[MercFH]

Whut boring I LOVED it.
btw does anyone know the song they play when hiromi gets out of the car and falls on Shin.
it's an awesome song....and has like a bit of guitar at the end of it?

[hai_san]

i like the scene when Shin run after Hiromi in the Truck by bike then Hiromi looking out the window and looks back for Shin... then she runs back to him... arg i can't seem to hate Hiromi because she takes Shin away from Noe, arg i want to root for Noe too, why cant they both have happyness... so conclusion i just will have hate Shin because either way whom he will end up, he is making one of the females cry very much...

the preview is a killer "The person you love is not me"....

i have the feeling that the one who is crying the most when the serie end will be me...

[golthin]

Originally Posted by hai_san

arg i can't seem to hate Hiromi because she takes Shin away from Noe, arg i want to root for Noe too, why cant they both have happyness... so conclusion i just will have hate Shin because either way whom he will end up, he is making one of the females cry very much...

I don't really care which one of the two girls end with him. I felt sad when Hiromi left the house and cried in the truck. I also was sad when I heard Noe say that she being with Shin at the dance will be the last time. She wished that curses were true, because she probably will put one on Shin. I also felt sad for Aiko. She is basically giving up on Shin, even though she still have feelings for him, and that didn't let her stay with Nobuse!

[ZODDGUTS]

Damn great episode the ending was great as well with music fitting well with the scene. Was a bit afraid that Shin would get all emo after she had left thakfully he went after her.

As for the preview yeah definitely it's

Spoiler for Next ep preview:

Hiromi saying that to Jun especially with the tone she uses no way she would ever talk that harshly in a tone of voice to Shin not even in that one scene with Shin tells Hiromi in her room that his gotten Jun to go out with her causing her to say that "she doesn't like busybody's" or something like that didn't even sound half as harsh as the "The one you like isn't me". Also in the preview you hear Jun saying to someone "You won't meet up" which is most likely to Hiromi which later leads to the likely scene between Jun and Hiromi.

[MercFH]

Arg poor aiko i feel so bad for her

[Ascaloth]

Watched Episode 10.

I am not going to wade into the "Shin should have done this, Hiromi should have done that" argument. It's been going on for weeks on end now, and I really would like that it not be prolonged any longer than necessary. I'm just plain sick of it.

Back to the topic. 2 episodes left, and a line spoken in the preview to the next episode that could be a indication of a plot twist, or just a bait-and-switch like Hiromi's undressing scene was. True Tears may not be back at its best in this episode, but it's close. In a way, if they ended the entire series this episode there and then, I would be fairly satisfied, if not fully.

I'll see whether I can put up the blog article soon. But seeing as I do have an important test tomorrow, chances are it's going up tomorrow night instead.

EDIT: Oh, forgot. 9/10.

[tun]

Originally Posted by serenade_beta

"Sono mama no Boku de"

Hmm, I can't find this song under Eufonius' or riya's discography. Is this a new song?

[ApostleOfGod]

Originally Posted by MercFH

Whut boring I LOVED it.
btw does anyone know the song they play when hiromi gets out of the car and falls on Shin.
it's an awesome song....and has like a bit of guitar at the end of it?

It sounded like a different version of Reflectia (OP) to me.. Just different notes and tones.

GREAT episode.

They showed Ai and Noe after Hiromi and Shin, but they showed Ai taking a glass of water. I can kind of grasp what Noe was mourning over, and what was happening with her staring at her grandmother's picture like that, but what does that glass of water depict? She's talking pills or something?