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Old 2008-04-13, 16:49   Link #2781
WanderingKnight
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Maybe you should watch the anime again. They have always been at war. So that carefree life you are talking about doesn't exist. Pinky is the leader of the best choir which means she has killed a lot before episode 1 even started.
LOL

Are you even paying attention? It is clearly stated in the first episodes that the Theocracy only began to use the choirs for war a little before the series begins. Choirs were used for prayer and the ship was used for the nobles to attend to Ri Maajon demonstrations.

EDIT: Also, what musuoka said.
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Last edited by WanderingKnight; 2008-04-13 at 17:24.
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Old 2008-04-13, 16:49   Link #2782
musouka
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Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzzy View Post
Maybe you should watch the anime again. They have always been at war. So that carefree life you are talking about doesn't exist. Pinky is the leader of the best choir which means she has killed a lot before episode 1 even started.
In the very first episode, it is repeated multiple times that the mere appearance of a Simoun has always been enough to make the enemy troops flee, and that a Simoun has never been shot down before. So, yes, the first episode represents an enormous change in the status quo.

Pay better attention.
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Old 2008-04-13, 17:27   Link #2783
Matrim
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In anime, characters can be emotional. Most of us like it when there's emotional conflict in the anime. However, when the anime character comes to the point where his/her emotions prevent her from doing stuff and degrades her character to nothing but a stupid helpless useless character and if this helplessness, uselessness and stupidity occurs for a couple of episodes to the point where the viewers are just annoyed, that character becomes emo.
So anime characters are supposed to be some quasi-humans who cannot fully express emotions? I respectfully disagree. Emotions preventing characters from "doing stuff" can and often is quite critical from achieving real dramatic effect. For example Fllay fom Gundam SEED is hated by many, many viewers and you could say she is quite useless compared to the rest of the characters there and annoying to boot but objectively speaking she is among the msot developed and fully fleshed out characters in the series. Now, expressing strong emotions can very easily backfire and I have no problem with you saying this is the case in Simoun (even though I don't agree at all) but just because certain characters seems useless and their actions repetitive that doesn't make them emo. Maybe it makes the scriptwriter look bad for emphasizing Neviril's grief too much but whether we see it in every episode or know she is mourning in her room without actually seeeing her, doesn't make any difference in her "emo level", does it?

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The twin sister was also emo. WTF! Why did she have to go out of the simoun just to find her sister in the enemy ship? She could have just waited. Stupid and annoying! We all knew that was going to lead to disaster. All I could think about was stupid stupid stupid stupid... jump stupid jump.... wth, jump idiot.... then the enemy pointed a gun at them and I'm like ugh what an idiot. She still didn't jump because her sister was below. When they are back, I'm like, she almost died trying to find her sister, when she found her, she didn't want to be near her then at the simoun ship, she doesn't want to talk to her or do anything with her. WTH!?!
Really strong emotions usually lead to actions that are anything but rational, you know. But they can be justified to the viewer if the mental state of the characters is presented well and I think Simoun achieves that brilliantly. Throughout the episode you could see Kaimu was virtually out of her mind because of having to fly with her sister (and the reason for that being incest and all), so I am kind of baffled why would anyone be surprised she acted in a very stupid fashion. And as mentioned the Kaimu-Arti situation is explained and developed later on anyway.

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Maybe you should watch the anime again. They have always been at war. So that carefree life you are talking about doesn't exist.
You should watch it again - Simulacrum has not been always at war with its neighbours, the characters often talk of the time they had been just priestess, not fighters-priestesses. Assuming they have become Sybillae a few years before the start of the series, the war has been going on for maximum two-three years. And prior to the start of the series it had barely been a war as not a single Simoun had been shot down. So think again whether killing two of her comrades, departure of other three (IIRC) and the death of her partner and lover Amuria would not be an extremely traumatic event.

And killing people from upclose is vastly different from just blowing their aircraft to pieces, seeing the enemy pilot's face also served to worsen Neviril's emotional state. For instance, there is a brilliant scene in All Quiet on the Western Front in which the main character is trapped in a trench with an enemy soldier, kills him to save his life and ends up, according to your standard, being totally emo for a while, despite being way more battle hardened than Neviril and having killed his fair share of enemies before that occured.

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you getting annoyed by the pink blowup doll's emotional state merely illustrates your lack of grasp of the themes commanded by that character. first, you have to understand how her people in simoun have always lived, and why this sudden death of her lover in a thing called war can be shocking. imagine if you have always lived without any threats to your way of life and your entire world is made of interactions between similarly privileged and unconcerned people. it is precisely important to have pinky be overly emotional, because her being overemotional over this incident illustrates her previous state of mind. further, the privileged and airy life she has always lead is itself permissive of being emo. to get her out of the emo state it is necessary to not only change her own state of mind but to narrate a change in the whole culture itself. this takes some time to do.
Extremely well put (as was your initial post in this thread).
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Old 2008-04-13, 19:16   Link #2784
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/facepalm

srsly, wat
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Old 2008-04-13, 19:28   Link #2785
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Maybe Fuzzy's first episode is somehow different from the one the rest of us watched.

+1 for musouka, WanderKnight and Matrim's points.
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Old 2008-04-13, 20:06   Link #2786
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FuzzyWuzzy, you should watch the earlier episodes again before continuing this line of argument. As everyone has been saying, the war is a very new experience for the Sibyllae, that they're supposed to be priestesses rather than warriors, and that the kingdom had never been in an extended war (if only because nothing could inflict losses on the Simouns before). If you can't get basic facts about the show correct, you can't form very good arguments about it either.
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Old 2008-04-13, 20:37   Link #2787
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Hey, can I also get away with making blatantly insulting posts? Can I, can I?
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Old 2008-04-13, 21:21   Link #2788
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Like I said over and over.... chor tempest used to be in the night shift. They clearly said that the night shift has many more conflicts than the day shift.
They have killed many many people. So to say that they haven't killed anyone in the first episode is really __BLANK_____ . But whatever, believe whatever you want to believe even if it has no logic whatsoever.

Pinky already admitted also in the court or whatever that place is that she and the other priestesses "slaughtered" a lot of people.

You think you can pretend that you are not killing people inside those planes or that you are just killing machines? How could some of you people think that way? Do you think that if you plant a bomb in a normal plane or even a train, do you think you can say that you only killed machines and not people? Geeze people.... geeze... wow seriously. WOW!!!

Last edited by FuzzyWuzzy; 2008-04-13 at 21:47.
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Old 2008-04-13, 21:57   Link #2789
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ya, they are little girls. that's the entire point, to show the realization that they are at war is a peculiar event.

at this point, you are just not getting it.
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Old 2008-04-13, 22:00   Link #2790
FuzzyWuzzy
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Originally Posted by anselfir View Post
ya, they are little girls. that's the entire point, to show the realization that they are at war is a peculiar event.

at this point, you are just not getting it.
They were around 17 years old. Maybe you have no clue of the outside world at that age but I'm not like you and I don't think they are the same like you also.
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Old 2008-04-13, 22:17   Link #2791
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oy, they are in a different world. did you happen to think this is a school drama? lol
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Old 2008-04-13, 22:18   Link #2792
FuzzyWuzzy
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Originally Posted by anselfir View Post
oy, they are in a different world. did you happen to think this is a school drama? lol
That is a really weak argument. just because it's in a different world, things shouldn't make sense. WOW!

But whatever, believe whatever you want to believe.
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Old 2008-04-13, 22:30   Link #2793
Matrim
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So to say that they haven't killed anyone in the first episode is really __BLANK_____ .
Then again, no one is claiming that anyway (even if we replace "in the first episode with until the first upisode), so your point is quite irrelevant.

Quote:
You think you can pretend that you are not killing people inside those planes or that you are just killing machines? How could some of you people think that way? Do you think that if you plant a bomb in a normal plane or even a train, do you think you can say that you only killed machines and not people? Geeze people.... geeze... wow seriously. WOW!!!
Read some history or psychology. Geez. You really think that say the pilots of WW2 bombers would feel the same way if they had to kill every civilian individually as opposed to just dropping bombs? Maybe some would but most certainly would not, at least not at first. Plus, it's not as if she became a total pacifist out of the blue and never kileld anyone later on...

Not to mention that seeing the enemy pilot's face was, as noted above just one of many factors for "Pinky"'s depression. But whatever, you can go and watch some anime with people who are just happy to kill anything that moves without thinknig twice if that bothers you so much.
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Old 2008-04-13, 22:30   Link #2794
4Tran
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Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzzy View Post
Like I said over and over.... chor tempest used to be in the night shift. They clearly said that the night shift has many more conflicts than the day shift.
They have killed many many people. So to say that they haven't killed anyone in the first episode is really __BLANK_____ . But whatever, believe whatever you want to believe even if it has no logic whatsoever.

Pinky already admitted also in the court or whatever that place is that she and the other priestesses "slaughtered" a lot of people.
There's not necessarily any illogical plotting nor any contradiction going on. Here are the facts:

1. The Sibyllae are supposed to be priestesses, not warriors.
2. The war between Kyuukoku and Shoukoku started relatively recently.
3. Simoun had never been shot down by enemies until episode 1.
4. The numbers and capabilities of the Shoukoku military was a surprise to Chor Tempest.
5. Chor Tempest used to patrol during the night.

It's possible that, if the war had started a week prior to episode 1, all of these points are consistent with one another. For your hypothesis that the Sibyllae had been at war constantly would require an overturn of points 1, 2 and 4.

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Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzzy View Post
You think you can pretend that you are not killing people inside those planes or that you are just killing machines? How could some of you people think that way? Do you think that if you plant a bomb in a normal plane or even a train, do you think you can say that you only killed machines and not people? Geeze people.... geeze... wow seriously. WOW!!!
Yes, people do think much in that manner. It's a very common rationalization for soldiers. I wouldn't say that they would necessarily say that they didn't kill people, but it's possible to mitigate that fact because they don't actually see them dying.
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Old 2008-04-13, 22:34   Link #2795
FuzzyWuzzy
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Originally Posted by Matrim View Post
Read some history or psychology. Geez. You really think that say the pilots of WW2 bombers would feel the same way if they had to kill every civilian individually as opposed to just dropping bombs? Maybe some would but most certainly would not, at least not at first. Plus, it's not as if she became a total pacifist out of the blue and never kileld anyone later on...
Gotta love psych 101 people that never really graduated from it. Bombers already made their resolve that they will kill people and that they may die also way before the mission starts. It's the same way as executing people with a gun, people already made their resolve that they are going to kill someone.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Yes, people do think much in that manner. It's a very common rationalization for soldiers. I wouldn't say that they would necessarily say that they didn't kill people, but it's possible to mitigate that fact because they don't actually see them dying.
No, it's not possible to mitigate the fact that you are killing people. It is possible to damage yourself mentally and emotionally by seeing the person die in a gruesome way but it is not possible to deny yourself the fact that you are killing people.
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Old 2008-04-13, 22:38   Link #2796
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I do not need to overturn them since Pinky already said they have been slaughtering people.
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Old 2008-04-13, 22:55   Link #2797
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Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzzy View Post
That is a really weak argument. just because it's in a different world, things shouldn't make sense. WOW!

But whatever, believe whatever you want to believe.
the point of the different world is to construct a different social sensibility and show the peculiarness of some commonly accepted notions. this is fucking sophisticated art.
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Old 2008-04-13, 23:26   Link #2798
Matrim
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It's the same way as executing people with a gun, people already made their resolve that they are going to kill someone.
Yes, killing people in a war is exactly the same as executing them with a gun. OK... You sure convinced me. No wonder you expect the characters to get over "the slaughter" so easily - they are basically executors anyway, right? This is like saying all people who eat meat have the guts to go to the slaughterhouse and kill some cows and pigs with their own hands. Details matter a lot in such cases, even though the end result is the same - dead humans or animals.

A hint - having made your resolve to do something does not guarantee you won't be disgusted by the gruesomeness of this thing after doing it. Simple, isn't it?

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It is possible to damage yourself mentally and emotionally by seeing the person die in a gruesome way
Then obviously the impact of people dying with the perpetrator seeing that from up close is different than the mere knowledge that he or she is responsible for the death of these people, right? Because if it wasn't why would it matter if one sees a gruesome death or a mere figure in the list of people executed by his order? The goal of any military propaganda machine is to deprive the image of the enemy from all its humanity, there is a reason for that, one would think. In the moment she saw that enemy's face Neviril broke the illusion that she was fighting just some abstract enemy with no face and no personality (a totally illogical illusion, yet rather common whatever your psychology tells you ). And that's why it was it hit her hard. Anyway, even ignoring that the other events from ep.1 should have been sufficient to make her "emo", so I really don't see why we are dwelling on his point that much.
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Old 2008-04-14, 21:08   Link #2799
anselfir
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But no Dominura singing the Song of the Migrants? Sigh....
T_T

i will sacrifice several small and cute animals to obtain this.
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Old 2008-04-22, 18:48   Link #2800
WanderingKnight
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I just finished rewatching Simoun (1st of many rewatchings, hopefully). By the gods, what a gorgeous series. It gets even better every time you rewatch it. I'm glad I've done so, because watching it again cemented even stronger the emotions that the series had provoked on me during the first run.

By the way, now that I've watched it again, I have no speck of doubt about Onashia being Dominura. Not a single one. The only element that perhaps doesn't completely close the story is Limone (why doesn't she suffer the same fate for not choosing her gender? Unless she chooses it and we're not told about it), but then again, there are many gaps plot-wise, and it's not the main point of the series anyways.

The only thing I would like explained is the reappearance of Angulas at the Ruins, unless it can be simply justified by the warping of space and time within that place.
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