[Manga] Chapter 444 Discussion

[Supermutant]

I don't think Sasuke is an anti-hero because his goals and will are too much at cross purposes with what we'd call 'good' or the protagonist(s). He can avoid being a totally unsympathetic heel to some degree though by virtue of not ever having succeeded recently at out-and-out evil acts. He didn't actually kill Naruto, (of course) he didn't actually catch the eight-tails, (whoops) and can't actually destroy the village. (Lucky) But failing at evil doesn't mean he's good, or helping the protagonist.

By accident of popularity or initial design, Sasuke is a pretty grey-area character. He's nominally dick-ish good guy who fell to the dark side, but may yet be able to be bad without doing something that pisses off his fans or makes him opposition to the protagonist instead of someone at cross-purposes instead.

It may yet depend of whether Sasuke takes the destruction of the town as an indication he can only go after those; like Danzo who are genuinely villains themselves. Sasuke's adventure could be the journey of an anti-hero, but I think it depends heavily on where it ends given what he's done has been a sanitized evil rampage so far.

[iBeast]

Originally Posted by Supermutant

I don't think Sasuke is an anti-hero because his goals and will are too much at cross purposes with what we'd call 'good' or the protagonist(s). He can avoid being a totally unsympathetic heel to some degree though by virtue of not ever having succeeded recently at out-and-out evil acts. He didn't actually kill Naruto, (of course) he didn't actually catch the eight-tails, (whoops) and can't actually destroy the village. (Lucky) But failing at evil doesn't mean he's good, or helping the protagonist.

By accident of popularity or initial design, Sasuke is a pretty grey-area character. He's nominally dick-ish good guy who fell to the dark side, but may yet be able to be bad without doing something that pisses off his fans or makes him opposition to the protagonist instead of someone at cross-purposes instead.

It may yet depend of whether Sasuke takes the destruction of the town as an indication he can only go after those; like Danzo who are genuinely villains themselves. Sasuke's adventure could be the journey of an anti-hero, but I think it depends heavily on where it ends given what he's done has been a sanitized evil rampage so far.

Sasuke saved the prisoners..killed Oro..killed Itachi....killed Deidara...he's done more than Naruto imo...Sasuke dosen't talk about his good deeds..he's all action.

Naruto is all crying and talking lol

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by iBeast

what in the hell are you smoking brah? lay off the pipe

Sasuke is plotting with Pain's master, Madara, whom is toying with Pain...you kidding me?

The only one that is at lost and looking like a fool right now is naruto lol...

naruto+9tails+4th+SuperMad= Sasuke and whatever tricks he's got left...

but if it's just plain Sasuke and Naruto? Sasuke easily...

what. the. hell. Sasuke's the one whos looking like a fool - this kid actually brought back a tail to the big guys at akatsuki. What a rookie rofl. There is no way Sasuke could have performed the fight Naruto just when through. He doesn't have enough strenght or chakra, its plain and obvious. Naruto vs. Sasuke? Sasuke would get mopped right now. Naruto Is OP baby! No ones stopping him now! (well, noone was even stopping him before, only Sasuke for a little while...)

[tkdtiger]

is team guy still expecting to follow naruto...if they do do you think they'll wind up playing a useless role? I was hoping we would see some action from some of the other teams...oh well its still been pretty interesting

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by iBeast

Sasuke saved the prisoners..killed Oro..killed Itachi....killed Deidara...he's done more than Naruto imo...Sasuke dosen't talk about his good deeds..he's all action. Naruto is all crying and talking lol

Sure Sasuke, as the character Kishi loves the most also gets the most love in the story with quality page time. But, no need to exaggerate what he did. Sasuke didn't kill Oro. While Oro was taking over him, Oro was taken over instead. All happening in the spirit world, or whatever. At the end, it was his brother who saved him from the Oro virus in his system. Deidara blowed up himself, hence it is considered as a suicide. And the reason for that suicidial character development was again his brother. Ever since the beginning the story is evolving around two crying kids, take whoever you like. I personally prefer someone who is not living in the shadow of his brother.

Originally Posted by tkdtiger

is team guy still expecting to follow naruto...if they do do you think they'll wind up playing a useless role? I was hoping we would see some action from some of the other teams...oh well its still been pretty interesting

Currently, there is nothing left for them to do, unless Sasuke decides to make an appearance, after seeing Naruto becoming more of a main character in the story. Though I am sure he is not the only that is pissed.

[Hanzoman]

Originally Posted by TooPurePureBoy

In regards to the silence of people screaming "Naruto is overpowered OMGnoes" as apposed to the outcry during the Uchiha arcs of Shippuden. Isn't the reason obvious?

Yes, it is obvious because these forums are very anti-Sasuke and pro-Naruto at the same time. Just look at certain polls and threads. I wasn’t really asking “why” it was rhetorical. I was really just stating an observation about a huge double standard. That was the main point of the post.

Originally Posted by TooPurePureBoy

I think the dichotomy between the two's powers was just a little too much for Naruto fans for a lot of Shippuden.

I think the immaturity and irrationality of a lot of Naruto fans was too much for a lot of shippuden. I wanted him to get his big break too, but come on... It just got stupid. Naruto has always been the power house out of his generation, the only person to even beat him in his generation was Ssauke… Yet people acted crazy as if he was the bottom of the barrel…

Originally Posted by TooPurePureBoy

It seemed like the main character was being put aside for the authors pet project.

…..ooor maybe he was given a rest because it was actually someone else’s arc? Maybe that might have something to do with it?

Originally Posted by iBeast

what in the hell are you smoking brah? lay off the pipe

You must be smoking something even stronger, you don't seem to know what manga you're reading, or whats going on!

Originally Posted by iBeast

Sasuke is plotting with Pain's master, Madara, whom is toying with Pain...you kidding me?

Please expalain what Madara's plot and his manipulation of Pein has to do with Naruto's powers and Sasuke's powers?

Originally Posted by iBeast

The only one that is at lost and looking like a fool right now is naruto lol...

Naruto just saved his village, and defeated all the bodies of Pein, when his village couldn't even defeat ONE. Now hes interrogating Nagato himself. How does he look like a fool?

Originally Posted by iBeast

naruto+9tails+4th+SuperMad= Sasuke and whatever tricks he's got left...

but if it's just plain Sasuke and Naruto? Sasuke easily...

I don't think you even believe this yourself

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Hanzoman

Yes, it is obvious because these forums are very anti-Sasuke and pro-Naruto at the same time. Just look at certain polls and threads. I wasn’t really asking “why” it was rhetorical. I was really just stating an observation about a huge double standard. That was the main point of the post.

I don't think you have been posting here long enough. There is no double standard, and this forum does not lack any pro-Sasukes, and/or anti-Narutos. Those two typically coincide with each other, that is why the more screen time Naruto gets, the less you hear of those posters. And of course the more screen time Sasuke gets, the more you will see those.

[Hanzoman]

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

I don't think you have been posting here long enough.

Can you please explain what the amount of time I’ve been posting here has to do with anything? If you’re trying to say that I don’t know about the crowd, you’re sadly mistaken. Fyi, I’ve been reading along far longer than I’ve actively posted, as is typical.

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

There is no double standard

Oh but there is. During Sasuke’s arc, there was a horde of posters flooding the forums with posts about “overoweredness”, and how such and such shouldn’t gain powerful techniques quickly, how certain techniques are “hax”, and “how the hell did he get out of ‘X’ technique” and there aren’t enough drawbacks of “X” technique and what have you…

But now, where have all these “rules” about a character’s powers gone? What happened to all that talk about techniques having adequate side effects? Where has all the talk about “gaining so much power in so little time” disappeared to? Suddenly, when things have to apply to naruto, all these rules mysteriously vanish. One of my favorites to laugh at is when people were talking about Minato’s appearance. One poster actually said “I know its bullshit, but so what, its naruto and Minato!”

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

and this forum does not lack any pro-Sasukes, and/or anti-Narutos. Those two typically coincide with each other, that is why the more screen time Naruto gets, the less you hear of those posters. And of course the more screen time Sasuke gets, the more you will see those.

The evidence is crystal clear: take a look at the polls in certain threads (like most hated character, least favorite, etc.), and certain threads themselves. Nearly every post was praising the chapter where Sasuke was taking a beating at the hands of Hachibi and how much they enjoyed seeing him catch an ass beating; people where almost as happy as chapter 431. However in the chapters where things go good for him, we mostly get “power up lists”, complaints, and whining that he looks better than naruto, etc., etc. People even complained because he was given a change of wardrobe…

[james0246]

^What you are emphasizing are the extreme people who sign up just to complain about certain characters. True Sasuke gets more of that group than Naruto, but it is still a small group of people that seldom post for more than a month before either leaving the forum (due to people ridiculing their opinions) or they grow up. There are very few long term posters that go out of their way to ridicule either Naruto or Sasuke on a constant basis (I can only think of 2-3 for each character).

That being said, Hunter, myself, Sabaku Kyu, Rurik, ShadowAssasin, SpyderSidious, etc have all commented many times in the past about just how overpowered Senjutsu is. In fact, we have mentioned this repeated times over the past 30 or so chapters from when we first learned of the ability/energy (in conjunction with Naruto). So, it is not like there hasn't been sufficient analysis of the hax known as Senjutsu.

[Cub-Sama]

Originally Posted by Hanzoman

Oh but there is. During Sasuke’s arc, there was a horde of posters flooding the forums with posts about “overoweredness”, and how such and such shouldn’t gain powerful techniques quickly, how certain techniques are “hax”, and “how the hell did he get out of ‘X’ technique” and there aren’t enough drawbacks of “X” technique and what have you…

But now, where have all these “rules” about a character’s powers gone? What happened to all that talk about techniques having adequate side effects? Where has all the talk about “gaining so much power in so little time” disappeared to? Suddenly, when things have to apply to naruto, all these rules mysteriously vanish. One of my favorites to laugh at is when people were talking about Minato’s appearance. One poster actually said “I know its bullshit, but so what, its naruto and Minato!”

Agreed, a few months ago the threads were filled with haters calling Sasugay (as they liked to call him) h4x because he got the white snake healing powers with no effort the CS2 with no effort and got MS through h4x and how he has no side affects. There are double standards in this forum and that is something that cannot be denied I have only seen about 10 posts complaining about how Jiraiya trained for years and didn't master it but Naruto got it in less than a few weeks.

Either way IMO Senjutsu is really overpowered and other than the time limit I don't really see a way it can be topped it's like Naruto gained the Infinity Plus One Sword (Look it up on TV Tropes) before the show has ended and I don't think an ability can stop it.

Can we discuss something else like predictions, how Naruto might be affected by all this, what is in store for Konoha after this. Whether Nagato will continue to live.

[Phenomenal]

Originally Posted by Hunter

No what's cannon is that Sasuke has bested, if by an hair, Naruto in the past and was definitely stronger after the timeskip.
There is no cannon about their current difference of power.

Originally Posted by Hanzoman

How can you determine whos stronger by talking about a fight that happened so long ago? Look at how much changes both of them have gone through… You’re making no sense

Originally Posted by Mateus

Since that battle took place in part One, and now it is Time Skip how can that possibly be relevant at all in Naruto or Sasuke's current status? They have both grown considerably since their brawl at the VOTE, so I wouldn't even compare Naruto and Sasuke's power in the current storyline until we have seen them going full out one on one.

Originally Posted by Scorpion

So let me see if I get this straight... Despite the fact that three years have passed in naruto time, and they both went through new training, growth, and several battles, we should still consider the person who won their last battle stronger just because he won the last battle? You mean to tell me that instead of basing whos stronger on their current abilities and strengths we should consider Sasuke stronger just because he won the last battle? That sounds phenomenally stupid. There is no way Sasuke would be able to stand up to Pein the way Naruto has, Naruto is clearly more powerful, but strangely certain naruto fans don't want to admit this. I don't see why...

My point is this people's...We don't know who is stronger at the moment between current Saskue or Naruto. The last time Saskue and Naruto fought Saskue barely won. Anyone ASSUMING a fanon battle of current Saskue and Current Naruto ain't canon at all. You can't judge these two characters on current battles/abilities especially when they are going to face each other again. Saskue won the last bout, I will consider him slightly better than Naruto until they fight again.

[SpyderSidiouss]

I agree with james. There’s definitely a double standard here, but its not everyone, but certain people. Just to compliment James’s list, Ill list the extremists I haven’t heard as much from anymore(or at all):

Aliasxn (o.m.g.)
HikariYume
Ryujinn
Killer bee
Mr. Johnny 5 (lol you used to post up a powerup list almost every week lol.)

Just a few off the top of my head. There are still way more, and a lot of undercovers too. They will never admit it though, so its pointless to name their names as it will just start up beef and arguments lol. Anyway they know who they are, and so do I… But I would like to congratulate phenomenal and mateus who looks like they’ve gotten themselves in a good rehab program for haterade. I think that’s really cool. Keep clean!

Only people who look at the manga fair will admit and post about naruto’s overpoweredness. Most of the extremists definitely wont; lol in fact aliasxn tried to say naruto still needed powerups…. And the undercovers wont fully admit it either. The undercovers might say something in-between like “they’re even” because they’re trying not to blow their cover. But make no mistake, they are part of the hater coalition as well.

[TooPurePureBoy]

So, it is not like there hasn't been sufficient analysis of the hax known as Senjutsu.

See I don't really think there was a choice but to give naruto a "hax" ability. I don't want to speak for anyone else, but, when I was voicing concerns (preaching the haterade whatever that means) about the direction of the story back during the Sasuke arcs I was doing so always knowing that eventually Naruto would catch up again(although thinking back, there may have been some weeks where I gave into some hyperbole in regards to the severity of effect it had on the story). Here's the thing though, Kishimoto crossed a certain line with the power of MS to the point where you just couldn't possibly do anything but make Naruto have some "hax" power as well eventually. It had to be done, otherwise Naruto would continue to seem out of Sasuke's league by a long ways as he did for about 2 years (real time not manga time).

Perhaps if Senjutsu had been the first to be introduced post time skip I would have been equally concerned that Sasuke was being left behind, who knows.

My point is though, that I think it was fairly logical that some would "hate" on Sasuke when the main character was being made to look miles behind his "Rival". I'm not fanatically anti-Sasuke or anything, to me it was a matter of timing really. At the end of "part 1" we saw Naruto defeated by Sasuke. Then post time skip we see that Sasuke has continued to remain superior, only it's not only that he's stronger than Naruto, he's like eons above him. Sure Naruto was probably the stongest of his generation left in Konoha but compared to Sasuke he was looking like a chump.

The reason I'm not complaining about how overpowered Senjutsu is, is simply because now it's hard to tell who would win in a contest between the two. It's hard to appreciate the rivalry when one is obviously superior to the other. I'm pretty much happy in that regards.

I wouldn't mind Sasuke being weaker than Naruto but not by miles, and vice versa.

Only people who look at the manga fair will admit and post about naruto’s overpoweredness.

Are you the "Official Arbiter of Fairness" now? I consider myself a "fairly" (oops there's that word again) objective person but I fail to see how it is just cut and dried that Naruto is now "overpowered". It all depends on the situation. If he was on a C-rank mission put up against some "random chunnin goons" then yes he is now "overpowered", but if we are talking about him matched up against the main antagonists of the story then no I don't think he's overpowered at all, in fact he's just about right in my mind.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by SpyderSidiouss

I agree with james. There’s definitely a double standard here, but its not everyone, but certain people. Just to compliment James’s list, Ill list the extremists I haven’t heard as much from anymore(or at all):

Aliasxn (o.m.g.)
HikariYume
Ryujinn
Killer bee
Mr. Johnny 5 (lol you used to post up a powerup list almost every week lol.)

Just a few off the top of my head. There are still way more, and a lot of undercovers too. They will never admit it though, so its pointless to name their names as it will just start up beef and arguments lol. Anyway they know who they are, and so do I… But I would like to congratulate phenomenal and mateus who looks like they’ve gotten themselves in a good rehab program for haterade. I think that’s really cool. Keep clean!

Only people who look at the manga fair will admit and post about naruto’s overpoweredness. Most of the extremists definitely wont; lol in fact aliasxn tried to say naruto still needed powerups…. And the undercovers wont fully admit it either. The undercovers might say something in-between like “they’re even” because they’re trying not to blow their cover. But make no mistake, they are part of the hater coalition as well.

Everything has a reason....I'm in the middle of my exams so i haven't got much time to respond or read everything.... but just by accident when i scrolled down about something interesting i read my forum name ...

You are absolutely correct...starting from monday to wednesday i'll be extremely busy with skool but....after that i'll reply to every qoute you'll make ..

[Scorpian]

Originally Posted by Phenomenal

My point is this people's...We don't know who is stronger at the moment between current Saskue or Naruto. The last time Saskue and Naruto fought Saskue barely won. Anyone ASSUMING a fanon battle of current Saskue and Current Naruto ain't canon at all. You can't judge these two characters on current battles/abilities especially when they are going to face each other again. Saskue won the last bout, I will consider him slightly better than Naruto until they fight again.

Okay, just answer this question for me plain and simple, no nonsense: Is Rock Lee more powerful than Naruto or Sasuke?

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by Scorpian

Okay, just answer this question for me plain and simple, no nonsense: Is Rock Lee more powerful than Naruto or Sasuke?

No. He isn't. Sennin Mode is that bad ass. Shikaku (shikamaru's father) didnt even need to know what went down there or see it. The moment he knew or learned that Naruto has returned and if he would have mastered the Sennin Arts (which Katsyu confirmed) he would be on a whole other level.

No one was to interfere..that's to me a bad ass Hokage-alike (referring to Sandaime) ninja level of fighting. He would also prefer to fight Orochimaru without the others interfering. I also think that Lee no longer has the advantage of speed above Sasuke and Naruto either..

But once Lee starts to open gates...i think that when he uses all 8 gates he'll obtain temporary powers like that of a Hokage so...that might be his temporary Sennin Mode. Which would end his own life. So...perhaps if Lee or Gai would interfere...they could only keep up for a limited amount of time....but at the end of their timelimit or body strenght...they would die.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Scorpian

Okay, just answer this question for me plain and simple, no nonsense: Is Rock Lee more powerful than Naruto or Sasuke?

That's...not Phenomenal's point. You can assume and argue, based off of stats, current battles, etc that one character is powerful than another, but, just because you make an assumption does not make that a fact. Phenomenal is an extreme (almost anal) stickler for canon facts and information. So, until something actually occurs to disprove currently known canon, he will never accept assumptions as anything more than possibilities, even if others would say that the possibility is almost completely proved.

[Phenomenal]

Originally Posted by james0246

That's...not Phenomenal's point. You can assume and argue, based off of stats, current battles, etc that one character is powerful than another, but, just because you make an assumption does not make that a fact. Phenomenal is an extreme (almost anal) stickler for canon facts and information. So, until something actually occurs to disprove currently known canon, he will never accept assumptions as anything more than possibilities, even if others would say that the possibility is almost completely proved.

There we go....My man James knows!!!

I need to sig this as the verse of the day......

[Scorpian]

Originally Posted by james0246

That's...not Phenomenal's point. You can assume and argue, based off of stats, current battles, etc that one character is powerful than another, but, just because you make an assumption does not make that a fact. Phenomenal is an extreme (almost anal) stickler for canon facts and information. So, until something actually occurs to disprove currently known canon, he will never accept assumptions as anything more than possibilities, even if others would say that the possibility is almost completely proved.

Ah, so despite any clues, hints, foreshadowing or other implications given by the manga, his position will not falter, and he wont even consider the possibility (as I've seen many times before) and think like a human being. In other words, he thinks like an android. Thank you for this clarification; you saved me time as there will be no use in even arguing any further with someone who will not even consider anything unless specifically stated in bright bold letters, or inputed by a user, into main memory.

A human mind on the other hand (or a more advanced android ), will be able to at least come up with a heuristic if an answer isn't possible correct? Specifically, Naruto has much, much more chakra than Sasuke, and more possible power modes. Since he can last so much longer, would he not be able to do more damage? This was about who is more powerful or overpowered not about who would win in a fight against each other. Naruto has 3 chakra sources two of which are unlimited and have very powerful and unique moves in that corresponding mode.

Sasuke on the other hand also has very powerful moves but his carries more limitations and very negative side effects. He can also actually run out of chakra. I think it would be a very, very safe assumption to say that Naruto is currently the more powerful and overpowered of the two. Clearly. Looking at his last fight, it doesn't appear that he could have done what naruto has just finished going through with Pein.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Hanzoman

Can you please explain what the amount of time I’ve been posting here has to do with anything? If you’re trying to say that I don’t know about the crowd, you’re sadly mistaken. Fyi, I’ve been reading along far longer than I’ve actively posted, as is typical.

Simple, the story has its own trends that change in time, so this is creating a trend among the posters and the posts being made. Even though you say you have been reading far longer than you post, I find it difficult to believe considering your initial post. Either you were coming here to get an update or you weren't reading carefully.

Oh but there is. During Sasuke’s arc, there was a horde of posters flooding the forums with posts about “overoweredness”, and how such and such shouldn’t gain powerful techniques quickly, how certain techniques are “hax”, and “how the hell did he get out of ‘X’ technique” and there aren’t enough drawbacks of “X” technique and what have you…

You need to evaluate things in order and should not expect the same response when you see similar things over time. The first time balance changes among the characters and an overpower is introduced, it is quite normal to get unsatisfactory responses. But, in time, people get used to it. And similar kind of power-ups, or even higher power-ups to the originally powered-up characters may not create a similar response. You cannot reset people and assume they know nothing about the story when they come posting here. And if they know, they are more prepared to see outrageous changes in the storyline or in the character development.

But now, where have all these “rules” about a character’s powers gone? What happened to all that talk about techniques having adequate side effects? Where has all the talk about “gaining so much power in so little time” disappeared to? Suddenly, when things have to apply to naruto, all these rules mysteriously vanish. One of my favorites to laugh at is when people were talking about Minato’s appearance. One poster actually said “I know its bullshit, but so what, its naruto and Minato!”

If you want to discuss then start a discussion, and you will find people discussing about those. You cannot expect other people to start discussion on these things, especially the ones who got used to this so much that they would not see it as an emergency act to make that point. Instead they would most act to respond.

Also, you shouldn't compare two things as if they are the same. Sharingan has been around since the beginning of the series, and it has been available for critic, analysis and other things for a much longer time . So, when the same thing gets power-ups over and over again, of course it is bound to create a lot of discussion. That is not the case for senjutsu. It is something new, it appeared out of nowhere. But that won't change the fact that the more you hear and see of that, the more you will find the negative points about it.

The evidence is crystal clear: take a look at the polls in certain threads (like most hated character, least favorite, etc.), and certain threads themselves. Nearly every post was praising the chapter where Sasuke was taking a beating at the hands of Hachibi and how much they enjoyed seeing him catch an ass beating; people where almost as happy as chapter 431. However in the chapters where things go good for him, we mostly get “power up lists”, complaints, and whining that he looks better than naruto, etc., etc. People even complained because he was given a change of wardrobe…

Polls can never be used to represent the whole population, especially in forums like this, which is open to everyone. And, just because you see posts like this in some thread does not mean they are on the overpowering side. There may be more on the other side, and they may be using different kind of expressions that may not be as obvious as those.

Originally Posted by Scorpian

Okay, just answer this question for me plain and simple, no nonsense: Is Rock Lee more powerful than Naruto or Sasuke?

In any discussion with Phenom, you should start by asking who is Saskue. The one who is so strict with the facts, or so he says, does not even wish to write a character's name correctly. How can you make sure that he is not twisting what he sees like he twists a character's name? The answer is clear, you cannot.