Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

 AnimeSuki Forum The Ontology of Haruhi Suzumiya

 2009-06-27, 17:43 Link #181 C.A. Absolute Haruhist! Artist   Join Date: Mar 2006 Age: 30 Like what I said, Haruhi is no normal anime, the show itself encourages people to discuss physics. And the mods recognise that, that's why we have this ontology thread here, the most amazing thread on AS. Most amazing because its a thread that allows you to mix real physics with Haruhi-sama's powers. Anyway I don't get what you're trying to point out with the problem you see in relative motion. When we were discussing relative motion, I believe we were talking about velocity and inertia upon entering and exiting a transporter. If you entered the transporter on a ship that's moving at 100km/h(keeping numbers small) and exit on a ship that's moving 125 km/h in the same direction, would you be thrown backwards at 25 km/h? And for your last paragraph, if you've watched Dakota's link about, post #168, you can see that time in the 4th and 5th directions can work just like Haruhi's time travel. __________________ No longer a NEET so I'll not be online as often. Ignore gender and kick sexuality to the curb! I'm a big mecha fan, who keeps playing the SRW series. When I say 'My god...', god refers to Haruhi-sama. My art album updated 11th May 2013, Science. Deviant Art: http://ca0001.deviantart.com/
Roger Rambo
Sensei, aishite imasu

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
Quote:
 Originally Posted by C.A. When we were discussing relative motion, I believe we were talking about velocity and inertia upon entering and exiting a transporter. If you entered the transporter on a ship that's moving at 100km/h(keeping numbers small) and exit on a ship that's moving 125 km/h in the same direction, would you be thrown backwards at 25 km/h?
You would if you didn't have a way to account for the velocity.

In Schlock Mercenary, they handled the issue of a shuttle going .3c teraporting(I didn't misspell...) onto a Dyson Sphere by converting the extra kinetic energy into mass.

"Is that why I feel heavier?"

Sol Falling
Senior Member

Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 28
Quote:
 Originally Posted by C.A. Like what I said, Haruhi is no normal anime, the show itself encourages people to discuss physics. And the mods recognise that, that's why we have this ontology thread here, the most amazing thread on AS. Most amazing because its a thread that allows you to mix real physics with Haruhi-sama's powers. Anyway I don't get what you're trying to point out with the problem you see in relative motion. When we were discussing relative motion, I believe we were talking about velocity and inertia upon entering and exiting a transporter. If you entered the transporter on a ship that's moving at 100km/h(keeping numbers small) and exit on a ship that's moving 125 km/h in the same direction, would you be thrown backwards at 25 km/h? And for your last paragraph, if you've watched Dakota's link about, post #168, you can see that time in the 4th and 5th directions can work just like Haruhi's time travel.
I was referring to an earlier issue based on how the earth is always moving, so that supposedly a 1 minute timeskip would leave you stranded in the middle of space.

As for the relative motion you are discussing, I don't really see why. If you charged into the transporter, then yeah, I could see you having some velocity coming out but if the transporter is travelling at the same speed as its surroundings then the effect should be the same as if it were standing still.

As for the link, I haven't looked at it, as I'd already spent some time going through wikipedia's articles on superstring theory last week. As such, I don't exactly know what you're referring to but if you're just saying that movement in the 4th and 5th spatial dimensions would appear to be teleportation-like movement, well...: 1) how exactly are humans supposed to move in the 4th and 5th dimensions? and 2) that still doesn't exactly solve the problem of moving to a 'past' or 'future' that doesn't exist.

C.A.
Absolute Haruhist!
Artist

Join Date: Mar 2006
Age: 30
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Sol Falling As for the relative motion you are discussing, I don't really see why. If you charged into the transporter, then yeah, I could see you having some velocity coming out but if the transporter is travelling at the same speed as its surroundings then the effect should be the same as if it were standing still. As for the link, I haven't looked at it, as I'd already spent some time going through wikipedia's articles on superstring theory last week. As such, I don't exactly know what you're referring to but if you're just saying that movement in the 4th and 5th spatial dimensions would appear to be teleportation-like movement, well...: 1) how exactly are humans supposed to move in the 4th and 5th dimensions? and 2) that still doesn't exactly solve the problem of moving to a 'past' or 'future' that doesn't exist.
Actually I'm still not sure about the relative velocity discussion. I'm not sure who's correct, you or Roger Rambo.

Do we relate our speed to the transporter of the ship we're transporting to or do we also relate to the ships?

For time discussion:

Time as the 4th dimension is a line made up of each moment in time stacked upon each other. This stack of moments of time is the 'picture book' you described, or frames like a film as described by Mikuru.

By folding the line, the 4th dimension, through the 5th dimension, you can travel from one moment of time to another moment of time.
__________________
No longer a NEET so I'll not be online as often.
Ignore gender and kick sexuality to the curb!
I'm a big mecha fan, who keeps playing the SRW series.
When I say 'My god...', god refers to Haruhi-sama.

My art album updated 11th May 2013, Science.
Deviant Art: http://ca0001.deviantart.com/

 2009-06-27, 20:05 Link #185 Sol Falling Senior Member     Join Date: Oct 2007 Age: 28 Actually, time as a rate of change is not 'made up' of anything. One moment is only connected to another by its current state and a derived rate of change (based on the current state). Past and future (as in, the physical reality of it) are an illusion: there is only matter, space, and a rate of change. And I'm still not sure why the 5th dimension is even necessary. In the first place, what makes the 5th dimension preferable to the ones we can naturally access? As it is presumably a spatial dimension, just like the rest of them, its special features should be indistinguishable from the rest. This whole 'folding the (non-existant) line of time and walking through the fifth dimension' still sounds hilariously abstract to me.
C.A.
Absolute Haruhist!
Artist

Join Date: Mar 2006
Age: 30
What does existance mean?

Time exists as much as any other magnitude, or dimension, which means they don't exist at all. What exists is the matter that's in the dimensions.

How long is that piece of matter? The 1st dimension.
How much area does that piece of matter cover? The 2nd dimension.
How much volume does that piece of matter occupy? The 3rd dimension.
How long did it take the piece of matter to cover the distance? The 4th dimension.

Rate of change is a dimension.

And the String theory itself has always been abstract, which is why there are skeptics.

There's no discussion going on if you don't understand, watch the video for a start:
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Dakota Dear everybody trying to explain the universe: http://www.tenthdimension.com/medialinks.php Sincerely, Dakota
__________________
No longer a NEET so I'll not be online as often.
Ignore gender and kick sexuality to the curb!
I'm a big mecha fan, who keeps playing the SRW series.
When I say 'My god...', god refers to Haruhi-sama.

My art album updated 11th May 2013, Science.
Deviant Art: http://ca0001.deviantart.com/

Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic

Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 36
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Sol Falling But then again, that's also the problem with portal-based or teleporting time travel in the first place. Time doesn't exist in anything more than a local sense either. To be clear, that means that 'past' and 'future' don't exist either, in any sense beyond Laplace's claim that, if a sufficiently powerful intellect knew the position and velocity of every particle at a given time, it could calculate the position and velocity of any particle at any other time.
Ironically, the part II of Endless Eight actually proved this can't happen with Haruhi's universe. In Haruhi's world, it is shown that random factors are truly random, as such even though the world was reset each time back to the same starting point, the people of the universe and everything else behaves slightly differently in every reboot.

The Newtonian views of the universe, that assumes everything is just bouncing particles that could be mathematically predicted, is at odds with those who follow Quantum physics. Haruhi, at least, believes in quantum.
__________________

Tyabann
Homo Ludens

Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 27
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Sol Falling Time travel in Haruhi Suzumiya is dealt with by assuming the existance of a 'picturebook', to serve as a record and target point of various instances of 'past' and 'future'. This allows 'travel' by providing actual destinations. Scientifically, though, there is no reason for the existance of any such 'cosmic history', and any attempts to reconcile those fictional tropes with 'actual physics' are futile wastes of time.
Just want to pop in and say that that view of time travel is a lie told to Kyon for whatever reason, as proven by every single instance of time travel in the later books.

Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic

Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 36
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon Just want to pop in and say that that view of time travel is a lie told to Kyon for whatever reason, as proven by every single instance of time travel in the later books.
Or it could just be that Mikuru was miss-informed, which wouldn't be the first time.
__________________

Tyabann
Homo Ludens

Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 27
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant Or it could just be that Mikuru was miss-informed, which wouldn't be the first time.
Hey, a lie told to Mikuru is still a lie told to Kyon.

 2009-06-27, 22:53 Link #191 Kogetsu Shirogane Kneel Before Your King!     Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: My kingdom Age: 32 It's not like what she tells him is any less honest than what he gets from the other two... __________________ WARNING: Kogetsu Shirogane cannot be held accountable for any actions taken by someone else. Potential side effects of communicating with this user include headaches, mild confusion, insanity, delirium, and jumping into fires. Do not expose this user to sunlight or water or feed this user after midnight.... so you think you're a king now...
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic

Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 36
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon Hey, a lie told to Mikuru is still a lie told to Kyon.
Being miss-informed doesn't necessarily mean she was lied to. Time travel is a messy business, and as Yuki said, Mikuru's people haven't truly mastered the art yet. So I am inclined to believe the information to the contrary is due to a lack of knowledge rather than deliberate deception.
__________________

Tyabann
Homo Ludens

Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 27
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane It's not like what she tells him is any less honest than what he gets from the other two...
At least Yuki always tells him the truth.

She just doesn't tell him the WHOLE truth.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant So I am inclined to believe the information to the contrary is due to a lack of knowledge rather than deliberate deception.
...Time travelers don't understand how the Novikov principle works? You'd think that'd be one of the first things they'd learn in the Time Academy...

Sol Falling
Senior Member

Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 28
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant Ironically, the part II of Endless Eight actually proved this can't happen with Haruhi's universe. In Haruhi's world, it is shown that random factors are truly random, as such even though the world was reset each time back to the same starting point, the people of the universe and everything else behaves slightly differently in every reboot. The Newtonian views of the universe, that assumes everything is just bouncing particles that could be mathematically predicted, is at odds with those who follow Quantum physics. Haruhi, at least, believes in quantum.
It was, of course, a historical claim. It's not that Haruhi believes in quantum physics, moreso that quantum physics is a reality. Although, I don't know that people behaving slightly differently in the event of a reboot is something quantum physics would predict.

My point with time travel though, was that there only ever exists the present moment in time. There is no abstract metaphysical 'stream' or 'stack', so that the only method by which access to past or future moments can be achieved must be to turn forward or back the very present. Past and future can also exist conceptually through a mental application of this process (observe an object's current state, derive an appropriate rate of change, and apply it to the object), but have no real physical basis.

Anyway, as for Mikuru's explanation being invalidated by her time travel, I didn't really get that sense? Her time travelling device is even called the Time Plane Destruction Device, so it seems to me that discrete time planes that record each moment in time is how stuff really works in the Haruhi universe.

Tyabann
Homo Ludens

Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 27
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Sol Falling Anyway, as for Mikuru's explanation being invalidated by her time travel, I didn't really get that sense? Her time travelling device is even called the Time Plane Destruction Device, so it seems to me that discrete time planes that record each moment in time is how stuff really works in the Haruhi universe.
She says that time travel cannot have any affect on the future, directly or indirectly, due to the time planes being separate, but that's invalidated by Kyon's time traveling in BLR.

If it worked the way she says it does, the current universe's Haruhi should have no idea who John Smith is.

You see what I'm getting at?

 2009-06-27, 23:27 Link #196 Kogetsu Shirogane Kneel Before Your King!     Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: My kingdom Age: 32 Funny that you bring up BLR not too long after saying Nagato never lies... What was it she said in Melancholy about there being "no particularly unusual elements" during the three years they were observing Haruhi? __________________ WARNING: Kogetsu Shirogane cannot be held accountable for any actions taken by someone else. Potential side effects of communicating with this user include headaches, mild confusion, insanity, delirium, and jumping into fires. Do not expose this user to sunlight or water or feed this user after midnight.... so you think you're a king now...
Tyabann
Homo Ludens

Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 27
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane Funny that you bring up BLR not too long after saying Nagato never lies... What was it she said in Melancholy about there being "no particularly unusual elements" during the three years they were observing Haruhi?
Fine, she lies ONCE.

And then only to protect consistency.

Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic

Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 36
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Sol Falling It was, of course, a historical claim. It's not that Haruhi believes in quantum physics, moreso that quantum physics is a reality. Although, I don't know that people behaving slightly differently in the event of a reboot is something quantum physics would predict....
Since Haruhi determines what is or isn't reality, one could argue there is no difference.
But yeah, the whole point about quantum mechanics is that randomness is truly real in their view. That even if everything starts in the same place, it doesn't mean it will end the same way. It is in direct odds with Newtonian views of the universe, which believed everything could be predicted if only you know all the data. The slight difference in event in a reboot is exactly what quantum would have predicted, except we don't have the technology to test it.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon ...Time travelers don't understand how the Novikov principle works? You'd think that'd be one of the first things they'd learn in the Time Academy...
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Sol Falling Anyway, as for Mikuru's explanation being invalidated by her time travel, I didn't really get that sense? Her time travelling device is even called the Time Plane Destruction Device, so it seems to me that discrete time planes that record each moment in time is how stuff really works in the Haruhi universe.
To answer the both of you, I am just making the observation that Mikuru admitted she couldn't timetravel "flawlessly". At least, not compared to what Yuki can do. So assuming there are flaws, it could come out as unintended consequences that don't fall neatly into time travel theory.
It would be like trying to perform an experiment that works perfectly well in theory, but because of inherent flaws in the equipment the final result would have errors.
__________________

quigonkenny
Sav'aaq!

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Hyrule
Age: 44
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon She says that time travel cannot have any affect on the future, directly or indirectly, due to the time planes being separate, but that's invalidated by Kyon's time traveling in BLR. If it worked the way she says it does, the current universe's Haruhi should have no idea who John Smith is. You see what I'm getting at?
You're reading a bit too much into this quote:
Spoiler for Volume 1, spoilered for size:
Yuki also stated in BLR that the TPDD "creates noise". Considering every instance of time travel that we've been a party to so far has involved some level of indirect effect on the future, all of which caused by Kyon, and all of which, so far, was predestined, I think we've maybe pinned down that definition of "noise" Yuki referred to.

Besides, even through all that indirect manipulation of the timestream, Mikuru's existence has remained viable, except when directly involving use of Haruhi's powers (ie: "Endless Eight"). Mikuru's telling the truth...from a certain point of view...
__________________
FGO Info: (JP) 055835281 | クワイガンケニー ==== (EN) 952525630 | quigonkenny

 2009-06-29, 21:52 Link #200 Ithekro The Comet has Come     Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 39 So we've gone from "Haruhi winding back time 14 days repeatedly for 594 years" to "Mikuru may or may not know how time travel works correctly"? It is entirely possible that the explainations we get are not the entire story, since we generally only get theories out of Itsuki, who would only have early 21st centry (or perhaps only very late 20th century) theories to work with. Mikuru can only give a limited amount of information before she gets "classifed information" block. They don't usually ask Yuki to give all out explainations because none of them can handle the amount of data she can put out, plus she even admits that the verbal communication system can cause errors in the transfere of data for her species. So we are left with whatever Kyon is given most of the time, along with what we think we can observe through him of Haruhi's actions. He may or may not be reliable for information. Facts: We know Mikuru can travel though time. She can take at least one person with her. We know that two versions of Mikuru can occupy the same time plane at the same time (though the younger one is not to gain knowledge of her older self in the time plane). We know that the two Mikurus can physically contact each other without the universe exploding (Mikuru(BIG) touched Mikuru(small)'s cheek). We know Yuki can stop time in a localized area. Her species reportedly has superior time travel abilities to the future humans represented by Mikuru. Yuki however states that what matters is that all data gets from one point in time to another...how it gets there does not matter. In her case, she more or less downloaded her future self's data into the past to interact correctly with Mikuru and Kyon, then froze all data in a localized area until the time around it reached the correct time frame. It is assumed she reset herself to her three years ago version after they left, but I'm not sure if this can be confirmed, or if she keeps experiancing multiple time loops because of Kyon, Mikuru, and Haruhi's actions in time travel and "endless" loops. If this is the case, then Yuki could be even older than 600 years old mentally. Placed on the planet, downloads future self once (3 years added), downloads future self again (or tries to anyway) (597 years added), 3 years waiting for Kyon, Endless Eight (594 years added), 1 year to present plus or minus additional minor loops....if she relived the Endless Eight twice due to a possible second download...lord...1,198 years old by the end of Book 9? Assuming she mentally relived those first 3 years over again twice due to downloading. If not, she may be lucky and only have to be 598 years old by the end of Book 9. Old woman Yuki needs a hug baddly. __________________