2009-07-25, 02:23 | Link #921 |
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^Indeed, and that's all well and good. You certainly can't deny that Shirley's death certainly set off a series of events, but that's the whole point of any story is that different plot points initiate and lead to different series of events. Any one of those incidents you mentioned could've changed ever so slightly and we would've been left with totally different results.
But more to the point, I'm not talking about what events happened as a result of Shirley's death, I'm talking about how it affected Lelouch (and other characters) on a personal level. Thus far you've offered the idea that the biggest impact of it was that it caused Lelouch to hate the geass and see it as a curse and sin, and I, quite frankly, don't really see that all that much outside of the massacre. |
2009-07-25, 02:26 | Link #922 |
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C.C's words while crying over him
"lelouch, for your sins of using geass on people..." it made him start seeing geass, and therefor, his use of it as wrong but during Z-R, he was intentioanlly doing things that he KNEW were wrong anyway
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2009-07-25, 02:36 | Link #923 |
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oooooooookay, again I'm not sure that that directly correlates to Shirley. First off, it's C.C. saying that, so obviously she too must consider the geass as some sort of sin. This actually lends itself to the idea that the belief of the geass being a sin is not just exclusive to Lelouch based on the disastrous results with Shirley, but that the geass is believed by many to be a cursed. Lelouch himself stated in season 1 that he had made a deal with the devil. Truly, I think he had always believed that the geass was bad, it's just that after Shirley's death he realized it was too powerful and dangerous to be controlled and thus had to be destroyed (or it may have been just an impulsive and irrational bitch move in response to his grief over her death)
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2009-07-25, 02:39 | Link #924 |
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i gave you my two cents on how her death effected the plot
for a secondary character with very little connection to the main story thats not bad at all
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2009-07-25, 02:49 | Link #925 | ||
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I still honestly believe Lelouch's death had less to do with feeling obligated (i.e. by redemption) to die so much as wanting to die. The despair over losing all hope of a gentle world with those he cared about plays an obvious role there. Zero Requiem wasn't just about Lelouch dying, though. It was also about giving the world a tomorrow, and doing so through a lie. In that sense, I think I can (fairly) put it this way (lol awesome, I get to 'fairly' dump on Rolo): Shirley taught Lelouch that he himself pursued a little piece of happiness, while Rolo taught him everyone did. What Lelouch saw in Rolo's death was a person sincerely, desperately struggling for the small piece of happiness he knew as 'a peaceful life with an older brother that truly loved him', so in his final moments, Lelouch was kind, and lied to him; granting that happiness. This was probably where Lelouch's whole "masks are good! Lies are useful!" speech with Charles came from, and why he chose deception as his method in uniting the world towards the pursuit of happiness. You could probably say that 'lies' was the theme of Rolo's character, and what he brought to the show. To which I say: fuck that! Lies suck, and the show did a poor job of convincing me otherwise. Charles' 'you fucking punk, stop hiding behind a mask like a little man and come fight me fair and square' honesty theme was awesomer than Rolo ever was. Not to mention, now that we've established that Lelouch was lying to Rolo during his death, we can firmly assert that Rolo was a delusional little prick and that Lelouch didn't actually love him. Ahaha yay. Anyway, back to Shirley though. As much as maybe I could get away with it, I couldn't honestly claim my Rolo bashing is on topic in a Shirley thread. As I said, Shirley taught Lelouch what happiness was (OKAY SO IT WAS SUZAKU WHO CAME UP WITH THE CHEEZY METAPHOR, BUT IT WAS SHIRLEY WHO INSPIRED LELOUCH TO UNDERSTAND IT, OKAY?!?! *insert crazy person emoticon*), which would obviously lead to a willingness to embrace death once he lost hope for it, as I've said before. By making Lelouch aware of his struggle for happiness, though, she also allowed Lelouch to see past his hatred of Rolo to his own struggle for happiness, and find meaning in it, and therefore become willing to lie to grant it. Anyway, then there's the whole 'the sun rises after the dark night' theme about putting your painful burdens of the past behind you and looking towards the future from Stage 14, which is basically a perfect metaphor for what the world did and what happened during Zero Requiem, so I'd say that was also part of the inspiration too. I'm kinda getting away from the topic of Shirley's death though, so I'll stop here. Seriously though, unlike Rolo, there is not one thing about Shirley's death that contributed towards the happy ending. Making Lelouch believe Geass was a sin, making Lelouch eventually give up on his own happiness, all of this stuff contributed towards the suicide part of Zero Requiem. It was only the things Shirley did while living that helped shape the 'future' part of Lelouch's final sacrifice. So it's pretty damn hard to get enthusiastic about it. Really though, I think Shirley played a principal role in shaping both ends of Zero: Requiem, both the death part and the hope part, and I think that really shows the all-encompassing nature of how Shirley influenced Lelouch. |
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2009-07-25, 02:53 | Link #927 |
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So that's it then? Well, then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. However, I do agree that, comparatively speaking, she did have quite an impact on the plot, at least while she was alive. I think she was very well handled in the first season, what with her own little sub-arc and all that, but after her death in R2 I think her character was pretty much forgotten and all that development pretty much wasted. I think the extent to her impact on the plot after her death was limited to the cult massacre and a few mentions thereafter which really weren't specifically about just her anyway. And that's really what I'm talking about is to what end her death served, and I don't buy the whole "one step in a chain of events" deal, nor I do particularly buy the "hating geass" deal. But if that's where we stand, then so be it.
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2009-07-25, 03:11 | Link #929 | |
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Similarily, I agree with you that Lelouch seeing Geass as a sin may have been one of the things Shirley's death did to influence Zero Requiem. Because Lelouch now saw Geass as a sin, he had to redeem himself for it, and he did that by sacrificing his life for the happiness of others. Shirley's death seems like the most likely time for Lelouch to have come to such a conclusion (that Geass is a sin), so that fits there. However, I disagree that that was the most important impact that Shirley's death had on Lelouch. I think, moreso than seeking redemption, Lelouch's true reason for creating a plan that killed him was because he wanted to die, and the loss of everything that had ever made him happy was, I think, the principal reason for that. If we make a basic comparison between Lelouch's scream of anguish and his bloodthirsty destruction of the Geass cult, both of these are rather raw, primal reactions to Shirley's death, so I suppose this might be debatable. Personally, though, I think the strongest impact Shirley's death had on Lelouch was that of losing something important to him (the scream), moreso than coming to hate geass (the massecre). Also, my final point was that Shirley's death only contributed to the negative aspects of Zero Requiem (the suicide part), while Shirley's life contributed a great deal to the positive aspects (looking to tomorrow, the pursuit of happiness). Therefore, I think the impact of Shirley's life was more important. |
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2009-07-25, 03:12 | Link #930 | |
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Euphie was constantly remembered by Suzaku and occassionally by others (remember the floating candle scene?) Uh, and I'm starting to run out of steam, just one more. And don't take too much stock into this next one because it's more subjective and not totally relevant, but Euphie didn't really suffer as much as Shirley. Whereas Euphie's death was sudden and tragic, Shirley's death was sudden, tragic and completely insane. It was beyond adding insult to injury. |
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2009-07-25, 03:26 | Link #931 |
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@Sol
i called "hating geass" the change to his CHARACTER her death effected him on a personal level beyond simply that it marks the end of his life in ashford, and it marks the start that would lead to ep 17 but those are not changes in character @ Nobodyman9 euphie was suzaku's main motivation for most of season 2 sheirly was not lelouch's main motivation, that goes to nunnaly thats the difference and i dont agree about euphie getting a better or less insane death then shierly if anything, her death was far more grusome, as it also involved her destroying everything she ever stood for and it was nothing short of complete tragedy, as there was no actual malice involved sheirly was MURDERED, because the guy who murdered her wanted to shut her up thats much simpler then the diabolus ex machine that happened to euphie
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2009-07-25, 03:47 | Link #932 |
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:P lol, you didn't call it anything, you just said that Shirley's death was the point at which it happened. I'm just saying that if we're talking about the Zero Requiem DVD commentary quote about "Shirley and Rolo were chosen because their deaths were the primary triggers for Lelouch's actions", then the 'actions' we should be talking about are the ones he took during Zero Requiem, not during Turn 17 or Turn 14 or whatever.
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2009-07-25, 03:55 | Link #933 |
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@blade: True, that's a difference, but they have many differences.
As far as their deaths I was mainly talking about Shirley had already suffered enough during season 1 and then she had gone through some more turmoil in Turn 13 and then to kill her off on top of it all was just the final straw and practically ludicrous. But that is, after all, just my opinion. But anyway, I still think Euphie's death was more impactful on the plot and the characters than Shirley's was. @Sol: Ha ha, well I'm not sure if we ARE talking about the commentary quote specifically. This was all brought up due to masterkitfistos comment about her death and then it turned into a heated debate about the impact of her death. Total Internet backdraft moment. |
2009-07-28, 07:22 | Link #934 | |
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You could say, there are outline-similarities, as figures of lovers for Lelouch and Suzaku respectively, but that would be accurate and at the same time not. I hope you get my point across though. 8D |
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2009-07-28, 14:46 | Link #935 | |
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Anyway, as you said in the generic thread, there's apparently been a lot of Shirley/Shirlulu hate on 2chan. Anyone have any ideas or speculations as to what could be causing this (obviously it must have something to do with ZR DVD) |
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2009-07-28, 14:56 | Link #936 | |
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I was mostly referring to those old korean spoilers, that were "supposedly" taken from Geass chart during a hacking-something, that had Shirley after that incident, listed as a "lover". I think, she fitted that description and exactly because of the circumstances, at the same time, she did not. |
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2009-07-28, 14:59 | Link #937 | ||
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2009-07-28, 15:37 | Link #939 | |||
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2009-07-28, 15:38 | Link #940 | |
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