2009-08-02, 18:10 | Link #3021 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Quote:
I really see Bern turning into an antagonist. If you look at some of the underlying messages, the reason Bern is so cruel is because she was trapped in a similar situation to Battler. (Meta-Battler isn't going home either.) The only solution I can see is Meta-Battler and Battler reuniting somehow, to get the happy ending Bern couldn't. Bern probably won't like that. To put it simply, there has to be a solution where Battler wins and Bern doesn't. |
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2009-08-02, 18:10 | Link #3022 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
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At that point, obviously, some humans/accidents/traps are the reasons for the murders. |
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2009-08-02, 18:13 | Link #3023 | ||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Quote:
There is no proof that witches don't exist. Quote:
There has got to be a better solution than that. There has to be ONE solution, not a miraculous succession of accidents and traps. That's even less likely than the existence of witches. |
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2009-08-02, 18:14 | Link #3024 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
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@Ssol:
As long as he doesn't proof that NO WITCH was responsible for the murders, it is like before opening schroedinger's cat box. Of course, even if he does proof that, he doesn't proof that witches themselves don't exist. Here you can use the "Devil's Proof" if you want but you don't even have too. @Kaisos Erranon: I somehow have troubles to tell if you are pro or contra witches in Umineko and to what extent. |
2009-08-02, 18:16 | Link #3025 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
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Quote:
That's why I want to think about the hints we have about the culprit before. But even so, I get why Battler did that in EP4 Tea Party. Beato deprived him of the 18th person, so he went rampage with broken logic to force her to use red... But seems that she wanted to die.. |
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2009-08-02, 18:19 | Link #3026 | ||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Quote:
Even if it's not true, Battler coming up with it will MAKE it true. That's how the Umineko universe works. Quote:
Maybe he sewed small bombs into everyone's head? (That was a joke, for those people who don't get jokes.) |
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2009-08-02, 18:20 | Link #3027 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Well: You might could explain everything by the "usage" of a virus/biochemical weapon Well that way no one would have to be inside the rooms and actually no one would even have to be near them which would mean that practically everybody could have done so.
Btw. that would also kinda "explain" the last riddle. But actually, it might be hard to find a reason why the heads were half-gone or something like this, so it is kinda unlikely - and I don't think this is how everything will be explained - but because of the Devil's Proof not impossible Well. OK but that only means for Rokkenjima and the murder case but not for the "outside" world. So witches would still exist, maybe even at Rokkenjima, but just what happened at Rokkenjima wouldn't be done by witches because however this will end, I think that witches themselves will exist in the end in Umineko. However, I think that Rokkenjima was done by a human though but as said that doesn't meant that I would deny that witches themselves exist in Umineko. |
2009-08-02, 18:22 | Link #3028 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Quote:
Everything in the meta-world needs a vessel, right? Oh, oh, what about this: It's a bioweapon that everyone hallucinates as butterflies. Like I said, small bombs. |
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2009-08-02, 18:22 | Link #3029 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
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But yeah, I get your point. |
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2009-08-02, 18:24 | Link #3030 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
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2009-08-02, 18:25 | Link #3031 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Quote:
That'd fit, but again the only person it could really be is Jessica, and we know she doesn't have multiple personalities... I dunno. |
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2009-08-02, 18:26 | Link #3032 | |||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Quote:
The existence of witches outside the closed space of Rokkenjima is not really relevant to me. I have no problem accepting that, but I also have no problem if they all turn out to be fake. Whatever is the truth, as long as they have no actual influence on the events of Rokkenjima it's fine. Quote:
At the same time, the only way for both lambda and Bern to lose is for Beatrice to win. However, Beatrice herself doesn't want that. I think it's clear now that she wants to lose. So if Battler loses, there wouldn't be any real winner, only losers. BAD END. Quote:
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2009-08-02, 18:27 | Link #3033 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Well but a bioweapon that does something like this to the heads is quite strange. Actually, I don't know of any but of course, that doesn't mean it couldn't be created.
After all IIRC there exists diseases that can cause at least the skin to "disappear". However, I have not a vast knowledge about diseases so... |
2009-08-02, 18:27 | Link #3034 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
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Quote:
Or Ryuukishi can pull "non-fair" stuff and give us a new character. He did it already with Hanyuu... Who knows. |
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2009-08-02, 18:29 | Link #3035 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Quote:
Because they still could have some kind of influence in "helping" to solve the mystery behind what happened. However, it is kinda hard to explain four different "endings" without any "magical help". But Bern started that game before Lambda was there. So she actually also must have a reason for why she would like Beato to loose. |
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2009-08-02, 18:31 | Link #3037 | ||||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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So the only reason I consider Nanjo suspicious is because we know nothing about him. Quote:
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Plus, Ep5 is called "End of the Golden Witch". That has to mean something. Quote:
If she's human, and we know she is because Real-Battler saw her, then she'd have to be either Jessica, or, yes, Shannon. She acts a hell of a lot more like Jessica though. That's relying on information from 1998, which from an Anti-Fantasy standpoint you really can't do. |
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2009-08-02, 18:35 | Link #3038 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Though that is true, it is already strange that there are different letters. Not to mention that this is not the only problem here. What about Battler thinking to be in the Meta-World? Is he dreaming, hallucinating, ..? All of those answers are kinda lame.
Furthermore, I have to agree with "Kaisos Erranon" I am not to sure if I could accept a complete non-magical theory. I actually want one regarding the murders but a complete non-magical theory for everything would be like denying 90% of the whole VN. I am not sure if I could accept that one. Also what he said regarding the letters and 1998 and Anti-Fantasy is also true. That information can only exist, if magic exists. Also, if that were the case the whole discussion regarding Lambda and Bern is senseless as they wouldn't exist anyway. |
2009-08-02, 18:37 | Link #3039 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Quote:
Kanon's Ep4 death tips suggest that we're supposed to unify both theories, I think. |
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2009-08-02, 18:37 | Link #3040 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
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Even so, I never labeled the magic scenes as utter crap. I see them as useful events with clues inside. As Anti-mystery vs. Anti-fantasy text said, you need to use both. I see them covering the truth, but not as complete lies. |
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