2009-08-25, 08:39 | Link #21 | |||||
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I do admit that I've only watched the English-dub (and I never watch dubs as a rule), so I may be missing some characterization there. Quote:
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I only watched the Mobile Suit Gundam TV version about four years ago, so there's no nostalgia factor at play. Still, I thought that it was pretty decent - the only mar on the whole thing was that ending (let's have a sword-fight for no reason). Overall, it was definitely one of the better Gundam shows.
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2009-08-25, 10:04 | Link #22 | ||||
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Last edited by Rawinder; 2009-08-25 at 10:16. |
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2009-08-25, 14:59 | Link #23 | ||
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The overarching tapestry that I refer to would consist of the major events in the war, from the initial battles in space, to Garma get killed, to Odessa, to Jaburo, to Solomon, and so on. Throughout the show, there's a strong sense that there are all sorts of events happening, and that there's a lot of movement in play; and not as if these events are only there so that the creators can tell stories about White Base. Quote:
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2009-08-25, 15:46 | Link #24 |
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I'll have to agree with 4Tran. Plotwise MSG was as solid as it gets in this franchise. You get the sense that the story takes place in a greater context, but without feeling too detached from the overall conflict; that the creators really thought through the setting of the show well, and as a result it is not a haphazardly slapping together of half-baked ideas that some of the other shows are. Of course, there are still problems with execution and some Tomino-esque illogicalness with certain plot details.
The best part about it though is the fact that it accomplishes what Tomino seemed to set out to do, which is to demonstrate the real effects of war on people. Its not the in-your-face deathfest that his other Gundam shows tend to be, but the feeling of depressed destitute that comes with a war that has killed half the human population. The Earth arc was a great example of this, with the mother and child trying to get back to their hometown, only to find out that its become a lake, the whole situation with Amuro returning home only to find that everything has changed, heck, even the infamous salt episode where a lake just disappears only to turn up miles away, it shows the devastation and unnatural changes caused by war. MSG is certainly not the best politically driven Gundam, and its handling of military life is laughable at best, but nevertheless, in my view its depiction of war is unmatched in Gundam series to date. As far as characters go though, I'll have to agree that Tomino seemed to go out of his way to make them as unlikable and annoying as possible at times. The three kids are the biggest culprit, but IMO had this show been released during the age of Internet, Amuro would have had more criticism than any anime lead today, and a fraction of his popularity. Also a major problem is the depiction of female characters. Frau and Sayla are both depicted as weak and overly attached to males. Character interaction, as brought up earlier, was severely lacking in development and is one of the more outdated parts of the show. So in a way this part of the show did age poorly.
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2009-08-25, 16:28 | Link #25 | ||
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I don't agree with your criticism of the female characters either. I don't think Fraw or Sayla were weak or clingy; if anything, they were just the opposite. Fraw acts as more of a mother-figure to Amuro rather than the token love interest, and Sayla always remains steadfast in her position even when faced with the task of fighting her brother. If anything, 0079 has one of the stronger female casts of any Gundam show (or at least a Tomino Gundam show). They aren't bitchy like most of the women in Zeta, or as short-lived as the women in Victory. Also, if your "brought up earlier" remark about character interactions was a reference to me, I think you might have misunderstood me. I thought the character interactions were one of the highlights of the series, and had a kind of dynamic that Tomino was never able to replicate again (except for maybe Turn-A, but I've seen very little of that show). |
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2009-08-25, 16:52 | Link #26 |
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Katz, Letz and Kikka have a leg up on Shinta and Qum because those three actually helped out on the White Base and were genuinely funny at times. Shinta and Qum more or less considered the Argama a playground and were quite annoying. They did become a little more tolerable in Double Zeta, but the story forced them into that position because everyone else was killed during the Gryps war.
If you're looking for great characterization during the OYW era, MSG TV isn't the best place to look. You're better off checking out 08th MS Team or War in the Pocket. MSG is mostly about the trials of war, and later on about the rise of Newtypes, but there are a few good characters here and there. Garma Zabi is one of my favorites because Tomino goes out of the way to portray the other Zabis as unlikable, murderous bastards while it seems Garma is only in it out of some sort of moral obligation to his family. His character is a metaphor for anyone who has ever been forced into a family business and eventually wanted out to start their own life. But as I said earlier, in typical Tomino fashion, he is killed in the same episode you start to like him. It's sad that his type of character, the bishounen mid-boss, has devolved into the likes of Clovis Brittania, though.
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2009-08-25, 17:52 | Link #28 | |||
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When you have a leaky ship like the White Base that constantly have enemy troops getting inside and try to kill everybody, having little kids running around screaming stupid stuff out just kills the atmosphere. And I do like quite a few characters in the show. I like the way Amuro and Kai developed. Char was (and always is) a compelling and enigmatic character, and there are a few likeable side characters throughout the show, though many of the other side characters do tend to lack depth. Quote:
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I just never felt any chemistry between any of the White Base crew. Relationships didn't seem to develop much, and there never seemed to be much comradery between any of the pilots. The crew did mature individually, but there was never really any sense of them coming together even though they've basically went through hell together. By large, the character interaction just seemed mostly dated and lacked meaning.
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2009-08-25, 18:17 | Link #29 |
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Are there any good female characters in the main Universal Century canon? Seems like all of them have their own set of flaws. I do agree that Sayla was much too obsessed with her brother, so bad in fact that during one of the first battles when they returned to space, she had a clean shot on a Zeon mobile armor and backed off solely because she thought Char was the pilot. My favorite example of a worthless female in UC is Reccoa Londe, who pulled an about face and defected to the enemy almost exclusively because Char did not take off his sunglasses when he kissed her.
Fraw and Amuro are a more tame version of Kamille and Fa, although I don't think Amuro ever thought of Fraw as more than a friend. Fraw was looking for more, which was why she ended up giving Hayato the proverbial sympathy fuck. But in the end I think she found what she was looking for. I did like how she always raged at Amuro for being nonchalant about his new responsibilities on the White Base, someone needed to put that emo bastard in his place. By the end of the series, Amuro doesn't even care that Fraw and Hayato are flirting with each other, even pretty much giving them his blessing without actually saying those words.
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2009-08-25, 18:32 | Link #30 | ||||
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As for your question, I think most female characters in UC end up doing at least one annoying thing or have one annoying trait. The only exception I can think of is Christina Mackenzie from 0080. |
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2009-08-25, 22:05 | Link #31 | ||
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I guess if we're talking about MSG, Mirai Yashima wasn't too bad. Though in the movies it seemed as if she had a new relationship with a different man every 5 minutes. Quote:
I also don't think it "disrespects" anything. Its meant to be a different show from Zeta, and just because that particular show took itself way too seriously, doesn't mean its sequel have to. After all, even MSG itself had its fair-share of slapstick and laughs.
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2009-08-26, 01:54 | Link #32 | ||||
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I punted the posts talking exclusively about ZZ to the Gundam ZZ Discussion.
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Mirai was okay, but again, she wasn't really interesting enough for me to consider very good. Her character was more important in that it was there and that it had a role to play, than that it had things to do. In other words, her actual level of interaction was either on the low side, or it was so low-key that I've forgotten any salient points about it.
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2009-08-26, 11:42 | Link #33 |
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The kind of dynamic I'm referring to is a group of characters who barely know each other (if they do at all), don't instantly gel together, and have to--over time--learn to work with each other. In Victory, the show begins with Uso and the other kids already as friends and the League soldiers already as colleagues. Not to say the characters in Victory or Zeta or ZZ always got along with each other, I just found 0079's scenario of a group of relative strangers learning to work together more interesting.
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2009-08-26, 17:54 | Link #35 | |
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My mistake then. |
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2009-08-27, 08:55 | Link #37 | |
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As far as the quality of the interaction goes, I found most of the characters to be uninteresting, and so the matter of their interaction wasn't particularly important (or even memorable). It's an area where Mobile Suit Gundam was beaten out by its successors. However, the antagonists and side characters fare a lot better. We have characters who only show up for 3-5 episodes making large impacts like Ramba Ral, and Garma and the Zabis, while MSG's immediate successors fared a lot worse. If you look to other areas like themes and setting, MSG is a lot better here than its successors as well. For a thirty-year old show, MSG really does hold up quite well; certainly moreso than Zeta and ZZ, and its strong points are something that modern Gundam shows can learn from (but usually ignore ). The show doesn't fare quite so well with some of the mecha shows in early '80s, but most of them are (sadly) largely forgotten now.
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2009-08-27, 09:56 | Link #38 | |
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2009-08-27, 10:16 | Link #39 |
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That may well be true, but the only example you've given so far is "The kind of dynamic I'm referring to is a group of characters who barely know each other (if they do at all), don't instantly gel together, and have to--over time--learn to work with each other"; which is an altogther different subject. Do you have any actual examples of Mobile Suit Gundam having compelling or believable character interations?
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2009-08-27, 10:44 | Link #40 |
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Just a few: Amuro's begrudging acceptance of Bright's command; Kai being a smart ass and butting heads with the other pilots; Mirai acting as Bright's better half (and I don't mean in a romantic way); Bright acting steadfast towards others even though he's not always sure of himself; Ryu trying to hold together a bunch of kids who are usually at odds with each other; and I could go on. Even something simple, like Amuro and Sayla's conversation about the G-Armor modes and Sayla's piloting skills (or lack thereof), or Amuro saying he'll cover for Kai when he hides Miharu, sounds genuine to me. There are a million other examples because the characters are (obviously) constantly interacting with one another, and do so over the course of 40+ episodes; and many times, even the most minute or understated moments between characters feels real.
It's not like I'm telling you you have to see things my way or anything, I'm just saying I thought the relationships between characters in 0079 felt more natural and believable than some of the relationships in later shows. I do agree with your remark about how effective characters like Char, Ramba Ral, and the Zabis were, especially since they were all (with the exception of Char) only around for a couple episodes. It's certainly a lot more than I can say (for example) for some of the Titans in Zeta, who barely register as characters (imo) and appear too infrequently for me to really think much of. Last edited by Rawinder; 2009-08-27 at 10:57. |
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