Character Discussion - Lelouch

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by azul120

Actually, she had no problems shooting them down when they surrendered.

Maybe I overexaggerated a bit, but she did see Numbers as mere statistics.

True, but Cornelia wanted to break the spirit of all the Japanese, and destroy it so utterly that they wouldn't give anyone trouble ever again.

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by azul120

Actually, she had no problems shooting them down when they surrendered.

Maybe I overexaggerated a bit, but she did see Numbers as mere statistics.

Those guys had stolen Sutherlands and tried to pass as Britannians to trick her forces. Killing them was perfectly logical, what if "surrendering" was just another one of their tricks to kill more of her men?

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Those guys had stolen Sutherlands and tried to pass as Britannians to trick her forces. Killing them was perfectly logical, what if "surrendering" was just another one of their tricks to kill more of her men?

That's not how the scene came across.
In fact, if I remember correctly, those guys weren't even dedicated terrorists. They just didn't want to end like the people in Shinjuku, so they went along with Lelouch's plan. Cornelia recreated the circumstances under which Clovis died, which meant killing people - innocents and terrorists alike, but mostly innocents - for no other reason than to lure out Zero.
Sure, it's a useful plan to get rid of resistance movements, and I agree she didn't do it for the fun of killing defenceless people. However, I still think it's very much immoral, since the system she believes in is one that could hardly be less compatible with my understanding of morality. She had her reasons, but everyone has those. They make her human, not moral.

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

That's not how the scene came across.
In fact, if I remember correctly, those guys weren't even dedicated terrorists. They just didn't want to end like the people in Shinjuku, so they went along with Lelouch's plan. Cornelia recreated the circumstances under which Clovis died, which meant killing people - innocents and terrorists alike, but mostly innocents - for no other reason than to lure out Zero.
Sure, it's a useful plan to get rid of resistance movements, and I agree she didn't do it for the fun of killing defenceless people. However, I still think it's very much immoral, since the system she believes in is one that could hardly be less compatible with my understanding of morality. She had her reasons, but everyone has those. They make her human, not moral.

The cell was called the Yamato Alliance, and Dalton tells Cornelia that half of the neighborhood is supporting them....

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

The cell was called the Yamato Alliance, and Dalton tells Cornelia that half of the neighborhood is supporting them....

...by supposedly not turning them in when they could have. It was a half-assed justification for their massacre, nothing more. So much as look at a terrorists and the Britannians will probably consider it aiding and abetting.

[Yorae_paladin1]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

...by supposedly not turning them in when they could have. It was a half-assed justification for their massacre, nothing more. So much as look at a terrorists and the Britannians will probably consider it aiding and abetting.

Actually the guy with the suit and tie expression after that pretty much confirms they were aiding them. Unless of course the terrorists also threatened them to shut up or else

[bladeofdarkness]

what would the civilains do if they didnt agree to having terrorists there ?
ask them politely to leave ?
try to force them out ?
tell the britannians "please come into the ghetto and turn our home into a warzone" ?

[Yorae_paladin1]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

what would the civilains do if they didnt agree to having terrorists there ?
ask them politely to leave ?
try to force them out ?
tell the britannians "please come into the ghetto and turn our home into a warzone" ?

Very true guess its lose lose for them

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Yorae_paladin1

Very true guess its lose lose for them

besides
there is no justification for what the britannian military does in saitama
you have very clear shots of britannian soldeirs shooting women and children in cold blood, firing squad style
you cant excuse that with "they didnt report the presence of terrorists"
its cold blooded mass murder of civilians

lets be honest here
it was nothing more then an excuse for the bait to lure zero out
because thats just how britannia rolls

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

besides
there is no justification for what the britannian military does in saitama
you have very clear shots of britannian soldeirs shooting women and children in cold blood, firing squad style
you cant excuse that with "they didnt report the presence of terrorists"
its cold blooded mass murder of civilians

lets be honest here
it was nothing more then an excuse for the bait to lure zero out
because thats just how britannia rolls

I love it how you are so quick to point out Britannia's faults, yet you overlook all the evil shit the terrorists do in the show. The JLF take hostages and throw them off buildings, that one guy wanted to take Milly, Shirley and Nina to a room to teach them a lesson i.e rape them. The other random guys bomb buildings and kill Britannian civilians indescriminately, end even the Black Knights have no morals, Tamaki tried to execute the student counsel along with Suzaku who had by that point surrendered...

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

I love it how you are so quick to point out Britannia's faults, yet you overlook all the evil shit the terrorists do in the show. The JLF take hostages and throw them off buildings, that one guy wanted to take Milly, Shirley and Nina to a room to teach them a lesson i.e rape them.

Which none of the other terrorists, even the ones in their own organization, approved of. You seem to have forgotten that.

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

The other random guys bomb buildings and kill Britannian civilians indescriminately, end even the Black Knights have no morals, Tamaki tried to execute the student counsel along with Suzaku who had by that point surrendered...

What random guys and where?

The Student Council were given strict instructions to stay put but decided to play hero. Tamaki was disobeying orders in regards to how to deal with them, but his response is perfectly understandable. They're trouble-makers and trouble-makers tend to get dealt with harshly in the middle of a war. As for Suzaku, Lelouch implicitly authorized his death by telling them to do whatever they wanted with the pilot (or something to that effect, at the very least he does not express the slightest bit of concern over Suzaku's survival).

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

I love it how you are so quick to point out Britannia's faults, yet you overlook all the evil shit the terrorists do in the show. The JLF take hostages and throw them off buildings, that one guy wanted to take Milly, Shirley and Nina to a room to teach them a lesson i.e rape them. The other random guys bomb buildings and kill Britannian civilians indescriminately, end even the Black Knights have no morals, Tamaki tried to execute the student counsel along with Suzaku who had by that point surrendered...

Dude, the Britannians and the JLF/Black Knights were both wrong at times. Just because blade is pointing out the monstrosities of the Britannian Empire doesn't mean he doesn't recognize the deplorable acts of the Japanese. Blade didn't mention it because they weren't talking about what the Japanese had done, they were talking about what the Britannians had done and what role Cornelia played in it.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

I love it how you are so quick to point out Britannia's faults, yet you overlook all the evil shit the terrorists do in the show.

lucky that there is so many of them to point out
a willingness to massacre people left and right is a present factor throughout the season
the terrorist groups are individual orgenazitions with different standards and methods to each
britannia is a single body with a general standard of being willing to massacre people at a drop of a hat

shinjiku, saitama, the SAZ, babel tower, the second SAZ
throughout its portrayal, britannia seems to go in guns blazing and gun down everyone in the area without any concern for human life
during the SAZ case, there wasnt even a threat to silence
the whole thing was suppose to be a peaceful ceremony and the stadium was filled with women and children
and yet, the moment euphie gives the orders, they go to work with a smile on their faces
even suzaku almost gets gunned down because he is japanese

and during the second SAZ thing, they are willing to gun down a million people
its only suzaku who prevents another massacre

you cant compare that to the actions you named below, carried by individuals, rather then entire orgenizations
and mostly against orders
the terrorists were wrong at times
but its not even close to the horrors that britannia carries out
its not even in the same area code

The JLF take hostages and throw them off buildings, that one guy wanted to take Milly, Shirley and Nina to a room to teach them a lesson i.e rape them.

you mean a SUB-FACTION of the JLF did that on their own
of which the JLF (and toudo praticularly) was angry with because its not their way
he teams up with zero two eps later without reservations over the fact that zero killed his "allies"

The other random guys bomb buildings and kill Britannian civilians indescriminately,

if you are talking about that thing on the news in ep in stage 1
i'll remaind you that its something you hear on the britannian controlled media
its not only possible that the media wasnt telling the whole story of what happened there (the reason why 59 elevents died as well in a "terrorist attack" supposedly aimed at britannians)
its practically guaranteed

end even the Black Knights have no morals, Tamaki tried to execute the student counsel along with Suzaku who had by that point surrendered...

you judge an entire organization as "having no morals" based on the actions of one soldier who goes AGAINST ORDERS in regards to the hostages (zero says that he will insure the safety of the hostages)
there is no hint that any of the other students were harmed or mistreated during the entire event, which lasted a few hours

[Revolutionist]

Nobody that goes to war can claim any sort of moral high ground. The terrorists and Britannia both had innocent blood in their hands. I don't care if Britannia killed more, the terrorists provoked it and risked the lives of their people, all because they refused to even try to join the system and try to change from within. Most of them didn't even give it a shot, they'd rather fight and lose thousands of people. Their ego's wouldn't allow them to become honorary Britannians...

I mean, Japan instigated the war and then lost. They needed to get over themselves and try to do the best they could with what they had at hand. Terrorism wouldn't gain them any sympathizers whereas becoming honoary members and contributing would slowly but surely gain them Britannia's trust and more doors would open to them.

Going by the logic used here Dr. MLK Jr should've started his own terrorist organization and waged a war to free all African Americans...

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Nobody that goes to war can claim any sort of moral high ground. The terrorists and Britannia both had innocent blood in their hands. I don't care if Britannia killed more, the terrorists provoked it and risked the lives of their people, all because they refused to even try to join the system and try to change from within. Most of them didn't even give it a shot, they'd rather fight and lose thousands of people. Their ego's wouldn't allow them to become honorary Britannians...

Your argument holds no water. The system doesn't allow them to affect any sort of change, because being an honorary Britannian is still being a second-class citizen. Before you bring up Suzaku, his situation was nothing but the most slim of chances, and even then he couldn't do a thing.

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

I mean, Japan instigated the war and then lost. They needed to get over themselves and try to do the best they could with what they had at hand. Terrorism wouldn't gain them any sympathizers whereas becoming honoary members and contributing would slowly but surely gain them Britannia's trust and more doors would open to them.

Japan didn't start the war, Britannia did. Japan was trying to keep them in check through sakuradite bargaining.

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Going by the logic used here Dr. MLK Jr should've started his own terrorist organization and waged a war to free all African Americans...

Except you're dealing with an occupied territory, not just a matter of unequal rights, and the systems are inherently different. You generalize far too much.

[Yorae_paladin1]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Your argument holds no water. The system doesn't allow them to affect any sort of change, because being an honorary Britannian is still being a second-class citizen. Before you bring up Suzaku, his situation was nothing but the most slim of chances, and even then he couldn't do a thing.

Japan didn't start the war, Britannia did. Japan was trying to keep them in check through sakuradite bargaining.

Except you're dealing with an occupied territory, not just a matter of unequal rights, and the systems are inherently different. You generalize far too much.

That's incorrect japan provoked it cause of there monopoly of sakurudite they wanted to increase prizes to rather unreasonable amounts to britannia Genbus plan was to make japan richer due to this but his blind patriotism did him in in the end. Even the bit of getting aid from either the chinese federation or eu was foolish on Genbu kururugis part cause that would result in three way war which japan would not have survived from cause if there any people left they would be fighting three super powers instead of one.

Lelouch said so himself

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Yorae_paladin1

That's incorrect japan provoked it cause of there monopoly of sakurudite they wanted to increase prizes to rather unreasonable amounts to britannia Genbus plan was to make japan richer due to this but his blind patriotism did him in in the end. Even the bit of getting aid from either the chinese federation or eu was foolish on Genbu kururugis part cause that would result in three way war which japan would not have survived from cause if there any people left they would be fighting three super powers instead of one.

Lelouch said so himself

Genbu never got aid from the Chinese Federation or E.U.. What Lelouch said about that is that if the war had continued, Japan would have had no choice but to request their aid... and then they'd get divided up by the three.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Yorae_paladin1

That's incorrect japan provoked it cause of there monopoly of sakurudite they wanted to increase prizes to rather unreasonable amounts to britannia Genbus plan was to make japan richer due to this but his blind patriotism did him in in the end. Even the bit of getting aid from either the chinese federation or eu was foolish on Genbu kururugis part cause that would result in three way war which japan would not have survived from cause if there any people left they would be fighting three super powers instead of one.

Lelouch said so himself

Fair enough. I forgot about that part. You're confused about parts, though. Once Britannia attacked, Genbu would have kept fighting, and sooner or later the Chinese Federation and the EU would have intervened. Then Japan would be torn apart by three warring factions. Aid had nothing to do with it. Also, Suzaku did Genbu in.

[FerrisWheel]

Really killing Genbu was the lesser of two evils.

[FerrisWheel]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Nobody that goes to war can claim any sort of moral high ground. The terrorists and Britannia both had innocent blood in their hands. I don't care if Britannia killed more, the terrorists provoked it and risked the lives of their people, all because they refused to even try to join the system and try to change from within. Most of them didn't even give it a shot, they'd rather fight and lose thousands of people. Their ego's wouldn't allow them to become honorary Britannians...

I mean, Japan instigated the war and then lost. They needed to get over themselves and try to do the best they could with what they had at hand. Terrorism wouldn't gain them any sympathizers whereas becoming honoary members and contributing would slowly but surely gain them Britannia's trust and more doors would open to them.

Going by the logic used here Dr. MLK Jr should've started his own terrorist organization and waged a war to free all African Americans...

^^^Cosign