2009-09-30, 02:01 | Link #2201 | ||
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Join Date: Jul 2009
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Its a belief based on opinion. So, I got nothing there.
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2009-09-30, 02:28 | Link #2202 |
Protecting the Throne
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Asia Tour
Age: 32
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Hi everyone. I just need confirmation about this. Are Catholics considered or classified under Christians also or are they viewed as a separate group? Groups such as baptists, pentecostals, methodists, evangelicans I know are under the Christian name. I'm just not sure about Catholic. It'd be nice if a Catholic could answer...
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2009-09-30, 02:50 | Link #2203 |
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Well being Hispanic, I am a Catholic. But to simply answer your question, avoiding the possible politics, here is what Wikipedia says:
"The Catholic Church, also known as the Roman Catholic Church,[note 1] is the world's largest Christian church. With more than a billion members, over half of all Christians[note 2] and more than one-sixth of the world's population," |
2009-09-30, 03:03 | Link #2204 |
eyewitness
Join Date: Jan 2007
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Christianity wasn't founded by Martin Luther.
Seriously, how far does this rampant anti-Catholicism go where people grow up unsure if Catholics are Christian. At least their humanity isn't in question ... yet. *concerned*
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2009-09-30, 03:49 | Link #2206 |
Protecting the Throne
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Asia Tour
Age: 32
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Thanks for the quick answers everyone
Sorry if my question seemed to offend you. I think I'm pretty sane thank you I guess it really depends on what you use you to define "Christian." I'm not saying you're wrong nor am I saying that the people/sources that made me ponder were wrong. They seemed to explain their side pretty well.
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2009-09-30, 04:27 | Link #2209 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 67
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Now why the confusion on Christianity? Protestants sometimes argue that the Catholic faith spiraled away from the "original intent of Christianity" both from state corruption and because the faith tended to take on the cultural artifacts (pagan beliefs) of conquered nations. Evangelicals are particularly intense about Catholicism, sometimes even claiming the Catholic Church is the Beast or anti-Christ, setting up false gods in the form of the saints or even the way they venerate Mary as a "goddess" (often she ascends to more importance than Christ in some parts of the world). So I can see why there might be some confusion -- but Catholicism is what "Protestantism" (1521AD) derived from (and in Protestantism it fractured into Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, Pentecostal, and dozens of other splintering sects). They're all "Christian" in the sense that their central tenet is that Jesus Christ was the son of God, he died for humanity's sins to create a new pact with God. After that, they all start disagreeing on the details.
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Last edited by Vexx; 2009-09-30 at 04:43. Reason: I spent a really long time studying my birth religion before I confirmed it made sense to walk away. |
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2009-09-30, 04:30 | Link #2210 |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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Christianity is a broad term referring to groups identifying Jesus Christ as saviour and son of God. Catholicism (Roman Catholicism to be precise) is the grouping for those in Chrisitianity anciently based in Rome and seeing the Pope as the human head of the Church in The Vatican/Rome.
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2009-09-30, 05:07 | Link #2211 | |
Protecting the Throne
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Asia Tour
Age: 32
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2009-09-30, 05:14 | Link #2213 | |
Protecting the Throne
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Asia Tour
Age: 32
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So what do you Catholics call it when you offer prayers to Mary or to the Saints, the commonly used Hail Mary prayer in particular?
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2009-09-30, 05:21 | Link #2214 | |||||||||||
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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1. God has claimed that he hardened the heart of the Pharaoh to not let the Israelites leave until after the 10 plagues and then to chase after them. So God is saying he has forced the Pharaoh's hand, ignoring any will the Pharaoh might have had on his own. 2. God ordered Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, but just as Abraham was about to do it, God stops Abraham. Here, God has allowed Abraham to make his own choice. But since God is omniscient, he would've known Abraham's choice beforehand, so it's possible that God gave that command knowing Abraham would remain faithful and there would be no need for a father to sacrifice his son. Instead, God has given believers this story of faith. 3. God ordered Jonah to go to Nineveh, knowing Jonah did not want to. God could've easily made Jonah go there directly. But God allowed Jonah to make his own choice and run away. This time God really does plan for Jonah to go to Nineveh, but God still didn't just automatically override Jonah's will. Instead, God showed his displeasure and Jonah finally obeyed God. Yet, even after that, Jonah still was able to show his displeasure to God. The first example clearly showed that God can directly control man's will. The second example showed human does have free will, but God knows about each individual and could also make use of man's will. And the third also shows human having free will but God can influence human to submit to his will as well. So, if by free will, you mean total absolute freedom, that would conflict with the idea of an omnipotent God. God has full control over his creation, which includes humans. But God does not always exercise full control, and does give humans a will of their own. |
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2009-09-30, 05:35 | Link #2215 | |
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2009-09-30, 05:38 | Link #2216 |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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Intercession. You don't pray to Mary or the Saints as worship; you pray for guidance and a sort of intermediary between the person and God. The Hail Mary doesn't lift Mary up to the level of God but rather extolling the virtues she carried as an example worthy of imitation. As I said, it's really wrong for Catholics to lift her up to the level of God. The level of God is for God alone, and godly worship is reserved for Him.
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2009-09-30, 05:40 | Link #2217 |
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They call it praying to Mary, the mother of Jesus. They can and do pray to Jesus himself, but the belief is there that you can pray to Mary who Jesus, God, obviously love and listen to. It's like sort of indirectly praying to God, asking Mary to get a good word in for you to the big guy. But the Catholic Church would consider worshiping Mary a sacrilege. There is a difference between prayer and worship.
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2009-09-30, 06:32 | Link #2218 | |
Protecting the Throne
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Asia Tour
Age: 32
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Another issue I guess would be the statues especially the one with the Virgin Mary carrying a baby Jesus. Some hardcore Protestants I know and whose books I have read have claimed that Catholicism was just the result of a facelift of the first pagan practices. One of the first ever during the time of Noah's sons. The particular religion then had a Queen Semiramis who made her people see her and her son as gods. From this, as time went about, other religions came about but only with different names. I was amused as to how there's a statue of Isis carrying her baby Horus and how there's a Mary carrying her baby Jesus. I'm not particularly in full agreement with the claims but I did think that there did seem to be a bit of truth in this and what a coincidence this is if it ever was. I'm wondering what other Catholics think about this.
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2009-09-30, 11:44 | Link #2219 | ||
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But anyway, it is right that that praying to God is probably just effective as praying to Mary. I don't think that many people pray to saints. But ironically enough, some of the Criticism you have mentioned of praying to Mary as opposed to God also exist within the Trinity itself, as in Praying to Jesus as opposed to God, that the Jesus part of the Trinity, though the same god, is somehow more merciful than the Father part, and then you also have people praying to the Holy spirit. And the whole criticism seems a bit flawed then, because all the sudden singing songs like, "yes, Jesus loves me," seem wrong and can be questioned as to why it is not "Yes, God loves me," But honestly, there is something wrong with spending time thinking about how someone worships God or worships whatever they worship, when they are peacful and don't bother anyone with their religious views. People spending time talking about what is wrong with another religion seem like they are on High horses, especially when that religion does not effect them in any way, especially when that religion holds no ill will against them. The Catholic Church is much reformed from the time the Protestants felt that they had to split Quote:
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2009-09-30, 14:30 | Link #2220 | |
It's the year 3030...
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spaceport Colony Sicilia
Age: 39
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1.) I would say this is forcing the Pharaoh's hand, only because he would be losing that which makes him the Pharaoh. He would have wanted to keep his servants and slaves close at hand; they are his royal subjects. Just as a king or emperor may take action against any who seek to go against the way of the crown, so does the Pharaoh seek retribution against the Israelites for trying to leave. The Pharaoh's hand is indeed forced here, insofar as freewill is concerned, because God has offered him no choice as to the resolution of this particular matter. 2.) You say that God has allowed Abraham to make his own choice, but I do not see that present in this example. God tells Abraham to sacrifice his son, and Abraham attempts to do it. He would have followed through with it, if not for the interjection of God. Essentially, God tells Abraham to do something, then stops Abraham from doing it. There is no point within that time frame that Abraham exercised his own freewill. Had he been told to sacrifice his son, and said "No," or not attempted to do it, then we would be talking about freewill. 3.) Ahh, but you're forgetting the final parts of that story. Jonah begins his journey, then decided against it and turns his boat around; he defies God. And what does he get for it? He gets to spend 3 days in the belly of a great fish (not a whale), after which he is spat back upon the shore to begin his journey all over again. And, the second time, he completes the journey successfully. Here, we see someone trying to exercise freewill over God, and God disciplining them for doing so. Had Jonah been allowed to say "No," as he attempted to do, without retribution from God, then I would say that he was exercising his freewill. Again, the definition of freewill is the ability to choose apart from all outside influences. This includes divine influence. In all three examples, God takes a direct course of action to insure that his will is carried out, at the expense of the freewill of man. I'm not arguing that he couldn't control us implicitly at any given moment, I'm suggesting that he chooses not to. If his intention was to give us freewill so that we could make our own decisions, he'd have been wasting his time if he was just going to make those decisions for us in the end. He wants us to choose for ourselves, because he wants us to learn what the proper/correct choices are on our own. "Trust the Lord your God with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your path." - Proverbs 3:5-6 This is where, I think, God wants our freewill to lead us. He wants us to use our freewill to come to him, so that he may relieve us of the burden of choosing, by shining a light on the path he would desire us to take. This still leaves open, room for freewill. We have used our freewill to turn to God, and to ask for guidance. However, God did not force us to make that decision, and he will not force us to maintain it.
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not a debate, philosophy, religion |
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