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Old 2009-10-13, 20:17   Link #3001
Kogetsu Shirogane
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparvid View Post
"Whenever Haruhi's not onscreen, all the other characters should be asking 'Where's Haruhi'?"
Well... if Disappearance is any proof, Kyon is like that.
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... desu desu...
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Old 2009-10-15, 00:06   Link #3002
Ricky Controversy
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So, this came out some time ago, but when I was a teenager there was a particular humorous shirt that was pretty popular, called the 'Religions of the World' shirt. It had two columns; one listing a religion on the wearer's right, and one listing its 'definition' on the wearer's left. Only, ever 'definition' included something about 'Shit Happening'. So, for example, "Taoism: Shit Happens", "Hinduism: This Shit Happened Before", "Unitarianism: What Is This Shit?" etc. I've figured one out that's appropriate here.

Haruhiism: Shit happens all Over the place because of Suzumiya Haruhi's Brigade.
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Old 2009-10-15, 00:19   Link #3003
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Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
So, this came out some time ago, but when I was a teenager there was a particular humorous shirt that was pretty popular, called the 'Religions of the World' shirt. It had two columns; one listing a religion on the wearer's right, and one listing its 'definition' on the wearer's left. Only, ever 'definition' included something about 'Shit Happening'. So, for example, "Taoism: Shit Happens", "Hinduism: This Shit Happened Before", "Unitarianism: What Is This Shit?" etc. I've figured one out that's appropriate here.

Haruhiism: Shit happens all Over the place because of Suzumiya Haruhi's Brigade.
A friend of mine has that same shirt. Nice one for Haruhiism, by the way.
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Old 2009-10-15, 02:12   Link #3004
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Originally Posted by Sparvid View Post
"Whenever Haruhi's not onscreen, all the other characters should be asking 'Where's Haruhi'?"
Yep.

And they go looking for her, and they are then like "There she is"

6 mins Later: Haruhi makes them carry heaters "Remind me why we went looking for her again?"
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Old 2009-10-15, 03:16   Link #3005
Kogetsu Shirogane
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I think you may have missed the joke.
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... desu desu...
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Old 2009-10-15, 03:22   Link #3006
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I think you may have missed the joke.
^ _ ^ Probably.

(I just did a Tsukasa Moment)
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Old 2009-10-23, 20:29   Link #3007
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Maybe it's:

Melancholy = Who's Haruhi
Sighs = Is Haruhi evil?
Boredom = How to stop Haruhi from getting bored?
Disapperance = Where's Haruhi?
Rashness = What's going on with Haruhi?
Disturbance = Is Haruhi a disturbance?
Scheme = Is this s*** happening because of Haruhi?
Anger = Is Haruhi getting bored to wish for a villain?
Dissociation = Will Haruhi get more friends?
Surprise = Will Haruhi know who John Smith is?

something like that
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Old 2009-10-23, 20:35   Link #3008
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I want Surprise Novel, right now.
I've waited too long. And the fans who've waited longer have also waited too long.
And I'm not so sure why there's all the questions..
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Old 2009-10-23, 20:40   Link #3009
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lol of course every Haruhiist would like it...

Even I would like that light novel to come in faster...

But meanwhile I would like to preserve those books (I could give those to someone XD)
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Old 2010-02-24, 22:43   Link #3010
netvope
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Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
Surprise = Will Haruhi know who John Smith is?
holy...

I want it right now too!!
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Old 2010-09-13, 13:46   Link #3011
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Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post
I think my biggest problem with the Sigh arc is that nothing really HAPPENS. We see the couple of weird things in Episode 00 get resolved (Yuki tackling Mikuru, Shamisen talking, etc.), but besides that, the most emotion I can muster is, "Eh...so what?" Episode 00 already conveyed "a bunch of clueless high schoolers make a movie and suck at it," and it just seems redundant to show the actual sucking.
The entire point of Sigh was about Kyon putting his foot down.
That's all. It was about Kyon deciding he will take the responsibility of being Haruhi's moral compass, the one who will stand up to her even while those with superpowers and immense technology tremble in fear.

And this was important, because that's what made Haruhi tolerable from Live A Live onwards. And that was also when the other 3 members start to defer to Kyon when they needed him to hold Haruhi in check. This was in comparison to the original story, when Kyon really did nothing to oppose her.
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Old 2010-09-16, 00:07   Link #3012
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
The entire point of Sigh was about Kyon putting his foot down.
That's all. It was about Kyon deciding he will take the responsibility of being Haruhi's moral compass, the one who will stand up to her even while those with superpowers and immense technology tremble in fear.

And this was important, because that's what made Haruhi tolerable from Live A Live onwards. And that was also when the other 3 members start to defer to Kyon when they needed him to hold Haruhi in check. This was in comparison to the original story, when Kyon really did nothing to oppose her.
I more or less agree.

Sigh is basically about Haruhi getting truly out of control in how she was treating everybody around her, especially Mikuru. Sigh certainly displays Haruhi at her worst, imo.

Kyon had to stand up to her here, because nobody else would. It's from Sigh on that Haruhi more or less forces herself to be a better person, knowing that if she didn't do this, her relationship with Kyon (and the rest of the SOS Brigade) was in jeopardy.
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Old 2010-09-16, 11:06   Link #3013
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Sigh is basically about Haruhi getting truly out of control in how she was treating everybody around her, especially Mikuru. Sigh certainly displays Haruhi at her worst, imo.
So it's a contrived situation that forces the characters to act in a way that they otherwise wouldn't in order to wedge in character development with a sledgehammer. Fantastic.

Think about it. The kind of person who says outright (and believes it), "Mikuru is my TOY," isn't going to change, especially not instantly, because one person happens to disapprove. The kind of person who would get someone drunk on tequila, throw them into polluted water, make them wear immodest outfits, and everything else that Mikuru CLEARLY doesn't want to do is not going to have a drastic behavioral overhaul because a second person doesn't want it to happen either.

Remember what Haruhi said to Kyon? It was something like, "What is your problem? This is my movie and I'll do what I want!" She thinks his objections are nonsense, and the fact that he wanted to hit her only made her more indignant. Remember, Haruhi was just smacking Mikuru (hard) seconds earlier. If Kyon's attempted attack upset her at ALL, it proves that she doesn't have any self-awareness or empathy, at least not the kind that would force such a turnaround in her behavior.

And how does Kyon resolve things? "uhh we're going to make this movie a success." So he's caving into Haruhi's desires. Someone with any intelligence at all (and it's understood that Haruhi has a significant amount) would immediately realize, "Hey! Even if he gets angry at me, he's still going to do exactly what I want!" You know why she's upset? Someone finally opposed her. You know what made her cheer up? That person stopped opposing her. Kyon's essentially apologizing for getting angry, and what's worse, he legitimately feels that way too. ("I don't know why I was so out of control, but I drank some milk and calmed down. It was probably just a calcium deficiency.") I think I remember yelling at my monitor, "No! You had every right to get mad! Don't be an idiot!"

When I said, "Sigh was boring and nothing happened," I was being generous. Perhaps, "Nothing happened that made sense," would be a more valid appraisal of the situation. This just brings us back to point 7 in my review at the top of the page, that Tanigawa is overrated. When you force development onto characters rather than letting them develop realistically, they're exposed for the plot tools that they are. That's not good writing.
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Old 2010-09-16, 13:03   Link #3014
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I have to disagree on a lot of those points, although hopefully the reasons why are at least somewhat legitimate.

As far as character development is concerned, we do have to remember that this is only the second novel in the series. In the first we saw a Haruhi who, while happy enough, was also in a state of Melancholy, thus the title. So I don't think that the situation is going into the boarders of being contrived. Haruhi was probably written to have a personality that would cause her to do this, and we just haven't had a chance to see her do so until this point. It's true that after this she does still have some of this behaviour (I'm specifically thinking of the baseball game) she does begin to tone it down and become less of a raging sociopath over time.

You say that Haruhi isn't going to change instantly just because one person objects to what she's doing. I believe that she doesn't undergo an instant change, for example she's still more than willing to force Mikuru to play dressup, but after peeving Kyon off so badly, it became clear to her that there are limits to what can be tolerated. Also, Kyon isn't just any random person to her, even at this early stage in the narrative. At this point, it might not be horribly far off to say that he's the only person whose opinions might matter to her at all.

As far as her reaction to getting hit goes, I think that the anime portrayed it a lot better than the novels did, honestly. In the novels she comes across as an indignant brat about it, while in the anime, with exactly the same lines, you can still see that her reaction is almost one of "Why would you, of all people, be the one to do this to me?" she almost looks like she's going to cry. Whether or not she recognizes the fact that her treating other people like garbage is what spurred him to attempt it is a little besides the point, all she needs to take away from it is the jarring sense of "How far did I push him for him to be willing to do that?"

The resolution is the part I can actually mostly agree with you on. Kyon's reasoning that he needs to apologize to her because he's disagreed with what she's done is rather contrived when those disagreements were completely legitimate for the most part. Sure, he's been snarking about stuff in general, and perhaps feels a little guilty about that, but he shouldn't feel bad for taking a hard line on what is and is not acceptable. I think the apology scene, or rather the brief opening to it where Haruhi was making a ponytail just when he walked in, had more potential because it showed that Haruhi was trying, even if it was a physical attempt, to maybe work herself up to an apology. I think a mutual apology would have been so much better in the long run, with Haruhi being the one to initiate it. But sadly that's not the way it went.

I hope that even if you don't find these points to be things that you can agree with that they at least made a modicum of sense. I'm not trying to change your interpretation of events, I'm rather just offering mine as a differing viewpoint.
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Old 2010-09-16, 14:35   Link #3015
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Two things; one, the baseball game chronologically happens before Sighs. Two, Kyon never actually apologised.

He just said, 'Let's make this movie a success.'

Its not an apology, but it is sort of like saying - 'Lets get on with this.' Kind of a declaration of support.

It takes nothing away from his putting his foot down though. It was then that Haruhi learned that there are limits.

To me, that scene was a turning point. After that, Haruhi began to care more about people, and stopped simply using them.

I think it shocked her into realising that, if she carried on like she was, Kyon would leave her. True, by this point she cares somewhat for the rest of the Brigade, but Kyon's opinion mattered more.
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Old 2010-09-16, 15:05   Link #3016
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Whoops, that's my bad. I'm still bad with the timeline.
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Old 2010-09-16, 22:38   Link #3017
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Originally Posted by Grahf616 View Post
You say that Haruhi isn't going to change instantly just because one person objects to what she's doing. I believe that she doesn't undergo an instant change, for example she's still more than willing to force Mikuru to play dressup, but after peeving Kyon off so badly, it became clear to her that there are limits to what can be tolerated. Also, Kyon isn't just any random person to her, even at this early stage in the narrative. At this point, it might not be horribly far off to say that he's the only person whose opinions might matter to her at all.
Well, it is essentially an instant transformation, because Haruhi's huge out-of-character moment, the only time that I can think of that she ever showed empathy for anyone outside of the SOS Brigade, was at the festival that occurred a day or two after filming concluded. That's horribly abrupt.

Incidentally, the only time Mikuru actually has a problem with the cosplaying is when she has to wear the skimpy outfits. Her only gripe with the maid costume was that Haruhi wouldn't let her take off her own clothes, she had no (on-screen) issues with the frog or the nurse outfits, and of course she dressed up for the soba cafe without a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grahf616 View Post
As far as her reaction to getting hit goes, I think that the anime portrayed it a lot better than the novels did, honestly. In the novels she comes across as an indignant brat about it, while in the anime, with exactly the same lines, you can still see that her reaction is almost one of "Why would you, of all people, be the one to do this to me?" she almost looks like she's going to cry. Whether or not she recognizes the fact that her treating other people like garbage is what spurred him to attempt it is a little besides the point, all she needs to take away from it is the jarring sense of "How far did I push him for him to be willing to do that?"
Quote:
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It takes nothing away from his putting his foot down though. It was then that Haruhi learned that there are limits.
If you don't know what you did wrong, then being yelled at won't change a thing. You might be upset (and Haruhi was indeed moody afterwards), but of course that'll all go away once the person who yelled at you says, "It's okay."

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Originally Posted by Ashaman View Post
Kyon never actually apologised.

He just said, 'Let's make this movie a success.'

Its not an apology, but it is sort of like saying - 'Lets get on with this.' Kind of a declaration of support.
Yes - a declaration of support shortly after withdrawing his support. In other words, he essentially retracted his objections. If a kid is told he has to stay in detention and then at the end of the day the teacher tells him he can go home right away, he'll have learned nothing. Here too, if someone gets furious at you and then returns a lot calmer saying, "Okay, go back to what you were doing," you're not going to learn anything either. At best, you'll think the person had a lapse of judgment that they've gotten over. If you had any uncertainty about your actions, that will be completely dispelled.
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Old 2010-09-16, 23:43   Link #3018
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Well, it is essentially an instant transformation, because Haruhi's huge out-of-character moment, the only time that I can think of that she ever showed empathy for anyone outside of the SOS Brigade, was at the festival that occurred a day or two after filming concluded. That's horribly abrupt.

Incidentally, the only time Mikuru actually has a problem with the cosplaying is when she has to wear the skimpy outfits. Her only gripe with the maid costume was that Haruhi wouldn't let her take off her own clothes, she had no (on-screen) issues with the frog or the nurse outfits, and of course she dressed up for the soba cafe without a problem.
Admittedly, that might not have even been empathy so much as it was her making a spur of the moment decision to get involved in a situation. It is a little convoluted, but I think that's more of a timeline order fault than anything else.

Also, forcing Mikuru to play dressup was a bad choice of words on my part. The root of the problem was Haruhi continually treating people like objects, means to an end without any regard of how they feel about it one way or another. Now, whether she continues to do this after the fact (and she does at least a bit) does open debate over whether she learned anything, but she never went to such extremes again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post
If you don't know what you did wrong, then being yelled at won't change a thing. You might be upset (and Haruhi was indeed moody afterwards), but of course that'll all go away once the person who yelled at you says, "It's okay."
I think here you might be giving Haruhi too little credit. She is quite empathetic, it's just that for the most part, she chooses not to be. And if I was arguing with someone and they went to hit me directly after something I just said, I'd probably attribute their anger to that statement, or at least the general focus of that current situation. Haruhi would have to be pretty wilfully ignorant not to see that Kyon had a huge problem with her treatment of Mikuru and her statement of ownership.

I haven't really quoted the last part, because as I mentioned earlier, I agree with you that the apology came off as completely one sided and contrived, and I think that it wouldn't have been much of a stretch if, as you say, Haruhi basically learned nothing from that incident other than that Kyon will cave given enough time. Now, she obviously did take something away from it, because she did tone down her behaviour and become more empathetic over the course of the next novels, but it could have just as easily gone the other way.
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Old 2010-09-17, 00:38   Link #3019
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Admittedly, that might not have even been empathy so much as it was her making a spur of the moment decision to get involved in a situation. It is a little convoluted, but I think that's more of a timeline order fault than anything else.
I will admit that Haruhi has a very interesting personality in that she has very concrete notions of "how things should be." Why did she pull Mikuru into the club? Because they "needed" a moe member. Why are transfer students mysterious? They just are. Why did Yuki need a cat? Because all witches have familiars. And finally, why sing for ENOZ? Because in your senior year, you should get to play your music at the cultural festival. The strange thing in the last situation is not so much that she had such a notion, but rather that it was directed at something not immediately involving herself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grahf616 View Post
I think here you might be giving Haruhi too little credit. She is quite empathetic, it's just that for the most part, she chooses not to be. And if I was arguing with someone and they went to hit me directly after something I just said, I'd probably attribute their anger to that statement, or at least the general focus of that current situation. Haruhi would have to be pretty wilfully ignorant not to see that Kyon had a huge problem with her treatment of Mikuru and her statement of ownership.
I'm going to type out this personal musing here so I remember it, but feel free to think of it as a concession to your point.

As a kid, Haruhi thinks she and everything she does is special. Then she sees other people doing the same thing and realizes that that's really no fun at all. She gets the notion that the only way to enjoy herself is to do things her way. To that end, she creates a club of yes-men so she can do everything she wants. When one of them acts up, it's a shock to her (also note her reaction to Kyon's suggestion at the end of E8), but it's the biggest step in realizing that there's more to having fun than doing everything her way all the time. Eventually, she develops in the sort of person who has fun WITH the people around her, rather than in spite of them.

Sure, that works, and it's palatable enough for me. That means I'll have to fall back on my whine that Sigh is far too drawn out for its sole purpose, but I'll save that for another night.
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Old 2010-09-21, 00:44   Link #3020
Grahf616
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Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post
There are plenty of occurrences in the novels that don't stand up to scrutiny at all (why characters act the way they do, why things happen the way they do, etc.), and I think it amounts to more than just literary license for producing fiction.
I'd really like to hear what those instances are, and I mean that in a completely sincere and non-antagonistic manner. I may be a fan of the show, but I'm always interested to hear points of intelligent descent.
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