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Old 2009-04-19, 22:33   Link #2921
WanderingKnight
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I don't know where you got that from.
Umm, the show itself? It's probably the most important point of conflict in the whole series. Virtually every character's conflict is somehow related with the anxiety of growing up and the sadness of leaving childhood behind and becoming an adult burdened by the chains of society. Coupled with the fact that the path towards becoming an adult is portrayed in such a conflicting way, what Neviril and Aaeru achieve comes off as nothing but pure victory.

I don't understand how you keep on seeing Aaeru's and Neviril's as a sad fate. I mean, I understand how you can personally think so, but I don't really get where the show actually implies that.

Quote:
Atheism is a lens I view the world through
Yes, but this isn't really the world. It's a fiction. And nothing stated in the show has anything remotely having to do with your (non) religious beliefs.

I mean, what I'm asking is not too hard to do. People who read my discussions in this forum about religion and whatnot can see that I'm rather outspoken about my disdain towards any sort of religious organization... but somehow, I didn't feel compelled to even think about atheism or whatever religion I hold while I was watching the series. The fact that you are makes me think that you're really having difficulties seeing the piece as a merely fictional one, or for some reason want to plunge in your convictions wherever and whenever you have the chance to.

There are ways to understand the relationship between the portraying of a religion in a fictional artwork and the real world, but that says more about the authors and the society the authors live and were born in than about the show itself.
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Old 2009-04-19, 23:24   Link #2922
anselfir
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lol

identifying yourself by atheism is really something, considering that nowadays no one even uses it to identify metaphysics doctrines. perhaps back in the 19th century when god was the most important metaphysical division, but not today. there are way more interesting variables out there than god. perhaps you mean by atheist physicalist or naturalist, but simoun's metaphysics is scifi more than spiritual mysticism.
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Old 2009-04-19, 23:26   Link #2923
porous_shield
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Quote:
mean, what I'm asking is not too hard to do. People who read my discussions in this forum about religion and whatnot can see that I'm rather outspoken about my disdain towards any sort of religious organization... but somehow, I didn't feel compelled to even think about atheism or whatever religion I hold while I was watching the series. The fact that you are makes me think that you're really having difficulties seeing the piece as a merely fictional one, or for some reason want to plunge in your convictions wherever and whenever you have the chance to.
The pathways in my brain run a certain way and whenever anything needs to be interpreted they must travel these pathways. It is utterly impossible for me to view anything and not bring elements of yourself into it. Atheism is part of my worldview, it's what I grew up with and I'm not consious of it when I make my every decision and react to stimuli. Likewise, I'm not completely conscious of how my metis, male, lower middle class status affect my every decision. You're doing the same, you just aren't aware of it.



t is nothing to do with actually thinking about your religion or lack there off while watching anime. I can't remove it no matter what I do, that is how I see the world. The best I can do is be aware of it, and try not let it temper my interpretation too much. What you are saying is like I'm intentionally holding up atheist ideas to interpret the anime. Some antropologists years ago even tried being psychoanalysed before doing their research in an attempt for a neutral viewpoint. It is utterly impossible to be a neutral spectator like you want to be. There is going to be hints of your world view present no matter how hard you try. I interpreted it a certain way and why I interpreted it this way was, in part, because of my atheism, not the other way around.
Whether you are aware of it or not you are viewing this anime through several lenses, some of which you are aware of and some that you are not.

Simoun was left vague for a reason, and that was for us to come up with our own answers not try to decipher them by who made the anime and when they grew up. If they wanted us to have one intepretation it would have given us concrete answers.
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Old 2009-04-19, 23:29   Link #2924
porous_shield
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Anself, that didn't exactly add to the discussion.
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Old 2009-04-20, 20:22   Link #2925
WanderingKnight
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Quote:
The pathways in my brain run a certain way and whenever anything needs to be interpreted they must travel these pathways. It is utterly impossible for me to view anything and not bring elements of yourself into it.
What you're doing is denying the possibility of ever changing your way of thinking. Now, I'm not saying your position as an atheist should change, since I don't believe mine should either. What I'm saying is that you're completely shutting down your interpretation of the world and really, that makes you as short-sighted as I consider all religious nuts to be.

Quote:
Likewise, I'm not completely conscious of how my metis, male, lower middle class status affect my every decision. You're doing the same, you just aren't aware of it.
Huh, I'm perfectly aware of it. You're not going to teach me anything about social determinism, since that's something my very own thoughts go about, too. However, saying that your atheist view of the world imposes upon you the need to interpret every piece of fiction through that lens, even if they make absolutely no emphasis on their religious aspects at all, is shortsighted at best, and downright stupid at worst.

Quote:
Some antropologists years ago even tried being psychoanalysed before doing their research in an attempt for a neutral viewpoint. It is utterly impossible to be a neutral spectator like you want to be.
What the heck? I never ever attempted to paint myself as an objective judge of the series! See, this is what I mean by shortsightedness. Since you seem to believe that a series that portrays a fictitious religion is somehow challenging your atheist interpretation of the world, you believe that every atheist should think the same as you do. And that's bullshit, pure and simple.

I simply don't mind the religious elements (in fact, in many series and pieces of fictional artwork the portraying of a religion is absolutely necessary), since the series is not somehow shoving its religious morals down your throat. I would complain if it did, though--but Simoun clearly doesn't. In fact, when I think about it I really can't find a single moment in the whole series when religion is truly important to the elements it attempts to develop.

What, should I also hate Chikyuu Shoujo Arjuna, one of my favorite series of all time and probably the most aesthetically beautiful anime series ever produced, because it presents some elements that appeal to ecology nuts? It's not even the point of the series.

PS: Hey there, negrepper! How about you think about where we are posting this? This is a discussion forum! Discussion! Yay!
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Last edited by WanderingKnight; 2009-04-20 at 20:35.
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Old 2009-04-20, 20:34   Link #2926
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It's not even the point of the series.
Knowing the director is Shoji Kawamori, I wouldn't be so sure
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Old 2009-04-20, 20:46   Link #2927
WanderingKnight
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Hmm, really? It took me a few watches to figure it out, but I really don't think that Arjuna was, deep inside, only New Age eco-nut propaganda. I mean, there is so much more to that series... but I digress. That's really a discussion for another thread altogether.
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Old 2009-04-23, 14:28   Link #2928
porous_shield
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Who said anything about social determinism? My original comment was whether anyone else had the same reaction as me to this anime and I then said why I think I had this reaction. you've been interpreting my comments for something they are not since the beginning.

Quote:
What the heck? I never ever attempted to paint myself as an objective judge of the series! See, this is what I mean by shortsightedness. Since you seem to believe that a series that portrays a fictitious religion is somehow challenging your atheist interpretation of the world, you believe that every atheist should think the same as you do. And that's bullshit, pure and simple.
This next quote seems to say that you somehow distanced religion and beliefs from this series and didn't even "think" about your relgion/beliefs while watching Simoun.

Quote:
I didn't feel compelled to even think about atheism or whatever religion I hold while I was watching the series. The fact that you are makes me think that you're really having difficulties seeing the piece as a merely fictional one, or for some reason want to plunge in your convictions wherever and whenever you have the chance to.
You've said a couple of times I have trouble seeing the piece as a merely fictional world, but you are yet to provide any proof. Where's this attitude I'm sensing in all your posts coming from?

How exactly am I plunging my conviction in wherever I can. I watched the series, I wasn't thinking the whole time "how can I bring atheism in here?" and then I had a very sad bittersweet reaction to the ending. I wondered why I had this reaction when other: friends, people on the internet didn't have nearly the same reaction.

How could an anime that leaves most of the interpretation up to the viewer attempt to shove anything down your throat? In a horror movie, if they show someone getting decapitated, then how horrifying that scene is is based on how scary you think decapitations are. If all you hear is the person screaming and they don't show what happens, than many viewers dredge up the most horrifying thing they can think of. Of course the second one is going to be far more scary because it uses your own brain rather than your reaction to what someone else thinks is scary. It's the same with this series, my reaction is not going to be the same as anyone elses because they leave many things up to your own interpretation. I viewed the ending and subconsciously reacted to it; it was only after thinking a while did I realize why I had this reaction.

Why else would my reaction to the girls doing the Ri Marjon and their dance at the end be like daylight and dark to my friends interpretation? He thaught it was happy they got to be eternal maidens and sad that the other girls never got to and had to live on and grow up. I thought that their eternal maiden status wasn't all it was cracked up to be and felt bad for them and though the others had far happier lives.

Then there is another guy I talk to who thinks Nevril and Aaeru were symbolic from the beginning of a state of pure innocent-that they would never attain, and addolescence that they would grow out of. I'm not saying there aren't any holes in these, just that we had different intepretations based on what struck us.
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Old 2009-04-23, 20:07   Link #2929
WanderingKnight
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Quote:
Who said anything about social determinism?
Umm, yourself? You said you can't help what your reaction towards the anime is because you're an atheist middle class guy.

Quote:
This next quote seems to say that you somehow distanced religion and beliefs from this series and didn't even "think" about your relgion/beliefs while watching Simoun.

Quote:
I didn't feel compelled to even think about atheism or whatever religion I hold while I was watching the series. The fact that you are makes me think that you're really having difficulties seeing the piece as a merely fictional one, or for some reason want to plunge in your convictions wherever and whenever you have the chance to.
You've said a couple of times I have trouble seeing the piece as a merely fictional world, but you are yet to provide any proof.
Your words themselves are the proof! You're saying you can't help but plunge your atheism into Simoun:

Quote:
Being an atheist, the ending was a bitter pill to swallow.
I mean, if that isn't proof enough, I don't even know what kind of point you were trying to make.

Quote:
How could an anime that leaves most of the interpretation up to the viewer attempt to shove anything down your throat?
Eh, I'm not saying it tries to shove anything down your throat, I'm saying that there's a clear main conflict here that makes details like the metaphors used to describe it simply irrelevant. I mean, you could also say Simoun is great only because there's lots of yuri, but I'd still say your opinion is pointless.

Hence that your being an atheist must somehow inevitably make the ending "a bitter pill to swallow" is kinda pointless, because the show doesn't really put any kind of weight in the religious aspects. Show me any major conflict that is irrevocably rooted in the religious nature of the world depicted in Simoun that can't be interpreted as another, even more important conflict that supersets it, and for which religion and/or fantastic events are merely a metaphor.

Quote:
It's the same with this series, my reaction is not going to be the same as anyone elses because they leave many things up to your own interpretation. I viewed the ending and subconsciously reacted to it; it was only after thinking a while did I realize why I had this reaction.
I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear: I am not arguing whether your reaction is authentic or not, I'm saying that being disappointed at the ending or at the series as a whole because you're an atheist is kinda pointless when you think about

1) The society that spawned Simoun,
2) The conflict that is worked throughout the whole series and that spans the whole cast of characters.

That's all.
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Old 2009-05-30, 14:37   Link #2930
romeyo007
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Hi im looking for the subtitle from episode 1 to 6 does anyone have them thanks
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Old 2009-05-31, 21:06   Link #2931
Proto
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You can find it here
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Old 2009-10-30, 02:04   Link #2932
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When will they make more episodes of Simoun? Will it ever be as popular as Code Geass? Quite a fun show to watch......until the story ended?
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Old 2009-10-30, 13:19   Link #2933
Veritas
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Never, no, and that's how it goes.
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Old 2009-11-01, 20:23   Link #2934
Kaoru Chujo
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1. Interesting discussion this page, testiness aside. I call myself an atheist, and I guess you'd say I was "middle-class." But this is my favorite show of all time and I liked the ending.

But I'm an open-minded atheist. Although I don't see anything that makes me think a god or magic really exists, I leave the possibility open. It may be true in some way that I haven't conceived of yet. I appreciate Richard Dawkins' writing, and share many of his scientific opinions, but he has always been pretty churlish about this subject. A fundamentalist in his own way.

I probably share all three of the opinions about Simoun's ending that porous_shield mentions: sad, happy, and symbols of eternal innocence.

2. I'm afraid I react badly to a term like "New Age eco-nut propaganda." An objective consideration of our situation, based on the best (as far as I can judge) scientific opinion, reveals that we are in a pretty parlous state, using more resources than is sustainable, especially of petroleum, and contributing to climate change that will be very expensive for everyone and disastrous for some places in the world, which could end up underwater in some cases and rainless in others.

Not that I don't understand a distaste for unreasonability in all its forms. There are a lot of people (on both sides of the ecological debate) who generate more heat than light.

However, Wandering_Knight, for the sake of its beauty (and because I obviously agree with some of your taste), I'll look for Arjuna and see if I understand your negative feelings better after I've seen it, lol.

EDIT: Just watched ep1 of Arjuna, and I definitely see what you mean about beauty, even there. Great drawing and colors, for me. And maybe I see some of the environmental extremism -- visually linking pesticides and worm-like giant monsters that will destroy the earth. But the myth seems fairly glorious to me, so far.
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YUUKI Aoi 悠木碧. b92.03.27 (age 23). 2008 Kurenai (Murasaki). 2009 Yumeiro Pâtissière (Ichigo), Kiruminzuu (Riko), Yutori-chan (Yutori-chan). 2010 Vampire Bund (Mina Tepeş), Shiki (Sunako), Samurai Girls (Juubee), Pokémon: Black and White (Iris). 2011 Madoka Magica (Madoka), Gosick (Victorique), A-Channel (Tooru), Ben-To (Hana). 2012 Symphogear (Hibiki), Kimi no Iru Machi (Rin). 2014 Pilot's Love Song (Claire/Nina), Blade & Soul (Jin Valel), Soul Eater Not! (Meme), Seven Deadly Sins (Diane). 2015 Owari no Seraph (Krul Tepes), Gangsta (Nina), Rokka no Yuusha (Fremy), One-Punch Man (Tornado), Onsen Yousei Hakone-chan (Goura), Hidan no Aria AA (Kirin). 2016 ERASED (Kayo), Boku no Hero Academia (Tsuyu), Ace Attorney (Mayoi), Tanaka-kun (Rino).

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Old 2009-11-02, 00:27   Link #2935
Proto
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That's what I love about Simoun. It's a show that is so good that its fans can surpass time, space, and 6 month old debates in order to express their love for it.
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Old 2009-11-02, 02:35   Link #2936
Kaoru Chujo
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
That's what I love about Simoun. It's a show that is so good that its fans can surpass time, space, and 6 month old debates in order to express their love for it.
Lol. And I thought I was more or less keeping up with this thread. I guess I'm remembering the terrific posts by 21stcenturydigitalboy on the Fuzakenna blog, here and here.
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YUUKI Aoi 悠木碧. b92.03.27 (age 23). 2008 Kurenai (Murasaki). 2009 Yumeiro Pâtissière (Ichigo), Kiruminzuu (Riko), Yutori-chan (Yutori-chan). 2010 Vampire Bund (Mina Tepeş), Shiki (Sunako), Samurai Girls (Juubee), Pokémon: Black and White (Iris). 2011 Madoka Magica (Madoka), Gosick (Victorique), A-Channel (Tooru), Ben-To (Hana). 2012 Symphogear (Hibiki), Kimi no Iru Machi (Rin). 2014 Pilot's Love Song (Claire/Nina), Blade & Soul (Jin Valel), Soul Eater Not! (Meme), Seven Deadly Sins (Diane). 2015 Owari no Seraph (Krul Tepes), Gangsta (Nina), Rokka no Yuusha (Fremy), One-Punch Man (Tornado), Onsen Yousei Hakone-chan (Goura), Hidan no Aria AA (Kirin). 2016 ERASED (Kayo), Boku no Hero Academia (Tsuyu), Ace Attorney (Mayoi), Tanaka-kun (Rino).
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Old 2010-08-20, 12:45   Link #2937
mamina fan
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hi guys i have a question I have been looking for the song The door to a New world and i cant find it any help would be great please
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Old 2010-08-28, 02:45   Link #2938
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When I discovered that Simoun was the all-time favorite of the knowledgeable, wise, and kind Kaoru Chojo, it went on my list immediately.

I finally saw the 1st episode and I must say it's pretty impressive:
  • the world and its dynamics
  • the machinery and architecture
  • the watercolor backgrounds
  • the CGI
  • the constant, yet subtle music (that romantic bombast and then the tango!)
  • girls, girls, girls
The only thing I found strange was when Chor Tempest found the only survivors of Chor Kaput (a fitting name!), they interrogated them and then just dumped them to die.

I've read that the series is hard to get into and gets more rewarding later on. But it seems great from the getgo to me.

I look forward to a rewarding watch.
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Old 2010-08-28, 03:34   Link #2939
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^Yeah it's one of those shows that starts of with the viewers having no idea where this show is headed, though for me that's one of it's great charms. There's some seriously fantastic character development to be had later on, plus you're going to love what the series has to offer going by those points you made.

& i adore the score for this show. Easily one of Toshihiko Sahashi's best works.
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Old 2010-08-29, 01:56   Link #2940
Simon
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Originally Posted by mamina fan View Post
hi guys i have a question I have been looking for the song The door to a New world and i cant find it any help would be great please
Unfortunately the two OSTs are all we have - the missing tracks have never been released

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiroth View Post
^Yeah it's one of those shows that starts of with the viewers having no idea where this show is headed, though for me that's one of it's great charms. There's some seriously fantastic character development to be had later on, plus you're going to love what the series has to offer going by those points you made.
Quoted for truth. If you're willing to put some time and effort into this show you'll be abundantly rewarded.

And a bit of new news, Simoun is being re-released in Japan as a DVD box set next January. Other than the box there don't seem to be any notable extras, but I still live in hope of a Blu-ray release some day.
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