2009-12-06, 16:00 | Link #1821 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
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Wow, 10 was another crazy episode, nice to see Mikoto's feelings come out. Poor Natsuru, "They're like marshmellows!!" made me laugh. I hope there's a second series/season to this show, it's fun. Though with current revelations in the story, opening and endings don't fit so well any more.
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2009-12-06, 17:11 | Link #1822 | ||||
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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There were some interesting character discussion opinions I wanted to comment on.
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Shizuku doesn't fill this bill at all. She is very much at ease with her emotions, and very honestly and openly deals with them in the few scenes when she feels them to be out of synch (e.g. her self-reflection on feeling jealous in ep7 or a potentially missed chance in ep10). Also, she is completely in control of her behavior. And except for a gradual development from toyfriend to boyfriend, there are no major jumps from tsun to dere. Mind you, I do see certain resemblances between Lisa Hayes/Madoka and Shizuku, in particular the strong personalities and their ability to succeed in what they start, I see several big differences which make Shizuku particularly appealing to me, and which justify calling her an example of a new archetype. More about that later. Quote:
No, there are two characters which I'd consider relatively close to Shizuku: Shinra from "They Are My Noble Masters" and naturally Senjogahara from Bakemonogatari. The defining quality is their playfulness and teasing disposition. The fact that this extends to sexiness doesn't hurt at all, but I wouldn't even say that this is "it". It's the mindset of expressing their minds and their feelings very openly and confidently (or "aggressively" if you prefer that). Why do I consider this so very refreshing? Because as a lover of the tsundere template, I get burned (and irritated) again and again by their inability to properly act on their feelings. This leads to tension and drama which is usually good... but from time to time it's nice to have a girl just SAY what it feels and wants and ACT on it. The main difference between Senjogahara and Shizuku is Araragi: He's receptive and happy. Natsuru is a much harder nut to crack ... but both ACT decisively. And after the constant hesitation of the tsunderes, this is such a wonderful break. Quote:
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Anyway, if you guys come up with female leads showing the following characterization, please by all means give me examples and hints. I'd gladly admit that the Shizuku template was already used well in the past - but I can't think of many examples at all: 1) Capable and confident, in a cool/calm way 2) Playful/flirtatious 3) Open and honest about their feelings, and acting on them 4) Overall kind disposition (devious streaks are welcome though) |
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2009-12-06, 17:15 | Link #1823 |
GT-R Fanatic
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto, Canada
Age: 34
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If they're want to chain another Gundam reference into the show, maybe during the next episode, someone could try naming the katana in a certain person's hand (not Mikoto) "Gerbera Straight".
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2009-12-06, 19:43 | Link #1825 | |||
Casting a spell on you...
Graphic Designer
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Treated equally, no. Romantic feelings in these situations are hardly equal, but these are the telling of stories, so why even include other characters not pertaining to the immediate romantic chemistry? If you're going to create characters with names, faces, and feelings, make them people, not extras. That's what I'm saying. But anyway, if you're happy, that's great. Your message seems to me that if you want someone bad enough, just do whatever, without their consent and to hell with the consequences. You may get lucky. Pfft. In fact, I don't think Shizuku perfectly embodies everything you've put on that list as well as you seem to think. It rather seems like things just snapped into place to fit that train of thought. But since she pushes your kink buttons so hard, what can I say? *shrug* As for examples of that character archetype, both male and female: Kazuma from Kaze no Stigma Nishino Tsukasa from Ichigo 100% Quote:
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"By gum I'll get 'em kicking and screaming I will! And make 'em like it!" Good for comedy, bad for romance (for my taste) unless you're some kind of masochist. And before you hang me for that, in this recent episode she ran under some rather baffling contradictions, since she's always been getting her taste of the snack, for her to say she'd rather have him going after her baffled me. OF COURSE we like it when the one we love reciprocates that love. But seriously, come on, she'll just go ahead and rape him eventually. Its rather unconvincing to me that she's projecting this illusion that its anything but her voicing the fact she'd like it better if he openly admitted her feelings for him. She just gets what she wants and there are no real repercussions for her actions, when I would see other characters get the cold, cold shoulder for just doing what they wanted. *Sigh* Though as bitter as I might seem, I don't really hate her, I did in fact like Shinra from TAMNM. Last edited by Altima of the Gates; 2009-12-06 at 20:02. |
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2009-12-06, 19:54 | Link #1826 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
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*Claps**Sheds tears of joy* You have managed to say why i think Shizuku isn't good. And you realised this was a story, not a Shizuku fest. Guess i'm not alone. Just because Shizuku is a refreshing character archetype in this story and appeals to many audiences,she does not save it from its flaws. |
2009-12-06, 20:58 | Link #1827 |
*(RAWR*)&rawr
Join Date: Dec 2005
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So, Sakura goes out of character and drags Natsuru away and... they just let her? It takes them that long to mount a search, and the only idea that comes up is "they might have been attacked by White Kampfer"? I thought Shizuku was on the ball about that... was I wrong? Yes, PORN! Damn he's smooth. Just great. Super evil, mind control, and a lesbian harem. It's just such an abrupt chance in character. I keep waiting for the punchline, but instead I just get more and more cheese. And just what good is that remark going to do you, Miss Evil Overlord?
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2009-12-06, 21:26 | Link #1828 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 35
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Instead it's revealed that she isn't really into her own looks and in fact her real aloofness is to stop herself from getting hurt by the plotting of said moderators/evil eyed sakura. In fact she does like natsuru probably because of his niave, I don't want to kill people attitude which did save her from a pyscho akane. Here sakura/shizuku are infact quite similar, their willing to do what it takes to get with the person they like, although sakura is willing to lie so this establishes the moral guides of their characters. The whole point is that she in fact does like natsuru because she possibly thinks that he could like her for not just her beauty, and he's a good guy. Let's not forget that she is a girl, and that she does want to be with Natsuru in more than just oh hey kaede asked you to fuck me so i'll do it way, and more like hey i really like you and you wanna do it so i'm down with that kinda thing. This is hinted at during the whole Ima rape you scene, when she talks about her firsts. Very much like senjougahara she's a girl who wants to be loved. her attempts earlier where more to plant seeds for captain dunce to notice her. |
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2009-12-06, 22:03 | Link #1829 |
Awe of She
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Orlando
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Hnnn, seems while Mentar is glorifying Shizuku, Altima and Adr are not happy at the lack of a story behind the other characters, thus weaking the overall story, correct? seems to be the core of the argument and Shizuku is the focal point of it.
One can say that the others are not being treated fairly by the author but then again, in RL, we aren't treated fairly either and there's no 'author' to convinently complain to. Even if one pursues a guy/girl that they like, doesn't mean they'll always end up with them. Shizuku's not being as aggressive as she is just to be mean to the other girls - she rather likes them as friends (they're interesting) but she only got involved with them because of Natsuru so she doesn't have any obligation to keep the playing field 'fair' for the others. If she, Akane, and Mikoto were friends before they met Natsuru, then yeah there would be something akin to betrayal to hold her back. As for her personality, she seems that she's been allowed to get her way throughout life and she's learned that almost no one refuses her because of her pedigree, attitude, and her beauty. She doesn't get flustered like the other girls because she's kept her emotions on lock. It seems that she used to be an ice queen but she's voluntarily breaking that down to go with a guy who doesn't chase after her at all. Maybe she likes the idea of being in control of a younger man in a relationship.
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2009-12-06, 22:03 | Link #1830 | ||
Casting a spell on you...
Graphic Designer
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I'll say it again, do you really find it okay to just have someone do things against your will or without your consent? That's what she does, a lot. Lots of other character I would hear they being called a slut for this, or clingy. Frankly, that was what got on my nerves, nobody cites her lack of tact at all. Seriously, if I kiss someone in their sleep, or just on the spot and I don't know them, I'd expect someone to slap me. I wouldn't just do that, and I appreciate people who are affectionate, and I myself am an affectionate person. There is little you could do that would change my mind here. Sorry. @Tempest35: Quote:
Its less about me knowing that fictional stories have the hierarchy of main character/hero/heroine/ ---->supporting characters, and more about my feelings on the show's progression as well as my thoughts on Shizuku. Last edited by Altima of the Gates; 2009-12-06 at 22:29. |
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2009-12-06, 22:15 | Link #1831 |
Carbon
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Shizuku gets more attention because Mikoto is a decoration and Akane is a gag character.
and Sakura being the main heroine (and final boss) has singled her out as rival. Was this intentional? maybe, maybe not Fiction is often unfair. There are always characters that are meant to be flat and caricatures. There is always a hierarchy. Sometimes Bobba Fett really was meant to be that poor schmuck side character who was unceremoniously killed off by Luke Skywalker, despite how the EU wants to portray him otherwise. |
2009-12-06, 22:41 | Link #1833 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
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See, thing is, why do we have to be Shizuku fans just to enjoy this work?Or better, why all the focus on the harem aspects?Did we already forget there was a story going on? Much of the criticism of this story i see people giving it out there,is actually all valid. My problem is that this thing has misrepresented itself.If it wanted to be about all of the fluffy aspects, it should be that way and represent itself as such. Or, i should not had been drawn to this story at all. Last edited by Nemesis; 2009-12-06 at 22:58. |
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2009-12-06, 22:56 | Link #1834 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 35
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again, your making this personal when in fact it isn't. I'm refering to the characters, and what they actually do. And really the whole convo in the almost rape scene again alludes to the fact that Shizuku does want natsuru for more than her conquest. Conquest is through humiliation, degradation and control over another, but when natsuru was leading she was submissive, clearly not the mindset of someone wanting to notch one on the bedpost.
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2009-12-06, 23:10 | Link #1835 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
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The most important issue in Kampfer is clearly who he's going to end up with; in a secondary sense we care about what happens to the red/white/blue Kampfer wars. Also, to the people looking for characters to compare Shizuku to; the most apt comparison is probably Ageha from TAMNM, not Hitagi or Shinra. I say this because relationship wise, Ageha is in the most similar spot to Shizuku in trying to snare a male who's loyal to another woman. Ageha swoops into TAMNM and basically takes what she wants of the main character (nearly everything heh >_>), and forcefully flirts with him to the point of multiple kisses even as he's trying to stay loyal as the devoted servant of Shinra and co. She does attempt to sleep with him, although probably slightly less forceful in her attempt than Shizuku is in her seduction. I usually like female characters who know what they want and aren't afraid to try to get it in these kinds of shows. The males are mostly spineless, so it's up to the females to make something happen if anything's going to happen. Last edited by vio5555; 2009-12-06 at 23:28. |
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2009-12-06, 23:39 | Link #1836 | |
Casting a spell on you...
Graphic Designer
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2009-12-07, 00:15 | Link #1837 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 35
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2009-12-07, 02:17 | Link #1838 | |||||||||||
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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Sorry, but that was quite a confusing reply of yours. Could you please try to differentiate between what I actually say and what you THINK I said?
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Nishino is not exactly what I have in mind. She's way too normal that 1) would apply. All the other points would also be "more yes than no, but this trait isn't so particularly noticeable about her to list it". These points should be so obvious that you'd list her quickly in a characterization summary. Quote:
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Particularly with the current situation - Natsuru unreasonably hardwired on a girl which dislikes him - you have two real options: Go after him the way Shizuku does, patiently and repeatedly, to make him notice you and gradually change his mind. Or step back "tactfully" and wait for Kingdom come. Akane demonstrates nicely how well that works. In Real Life too, by the way. At least, in my experience (I've tried things both ways, with comparable results). Quote:
"She'll just go ahead and rape him eventually" you say. Well, obviously not. She would have had a chance in ep10 to do just that. But she didn't. She doesn't want to escalate to this level without at least Natsuru's consent (passive), and preferably his own initiative (active). So there's no contradiction at all, unless you incorrectly label her as a marauding kiss fiend who only wants to ravage the victim's body for her own pleasure. Maybe you should reevaluate your prejudice then. And about what you'd rather see or not - sounds to me like the real beef you have with the show is Natsuru, then. HE is the guy who tolerates Shizuku's advances and shows a cold shoulder to the other girls *shrug* |
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2009-12-07, 02:40 | Link #1839 | ||||
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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2009-12-07, 02:59 | Link #1840 |
Mad Scientist #0000
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Shizuku rejected Natsuru's "advances" there especially because she knew it was Kaede's sheme and as prideful as she is she didn't want to play along with it. And even after that she somehow minded to miss such a great opportunity.
Ialso feel it unjustified that while Shizuku always suceeds Akane's plans always shutted down. Mikoto is a late comer so she's out of picture. But Akane should have also her moments with Natsuru. I mean she's also trying hard despite her clumsiness and shyness. Maybe even harder than Shizuku. But so far either Natsuru was dense like hell or something happened to make her moves fail. It isn't realism as the luck(or anime's director?) always favors one character's moves while the other always fails. In reality someone shouldn't be always lucky. (not to mention Natsuru-level dense people shouldn't exist in the real world making the debate about realism already meaningless) I just want to see what will happen as Akane suceeds one of her moves... |
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action, comedy, genderbender, light novel adaptation, romance, shounen |
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