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View Poll Results: Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 24 Rating
Perfect 10 22 13.17%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 15 8.98%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 19 11.38%
7 out of 10 : Good 39 23.35%
6 out of 10 : Average 16 9.58%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 14 8.38%
4 out of 10 : Poor 15 8.98%
3 out of 10 : Bad 2 1.20%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 5 2.99%
1 out of 10 : Painful 20 11.98%
Voters: 167. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-12-14, 17:59   Link #261
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
But Beatrice always referred to him as Kanon in every game before Evatrice.

Again even if Beato is a troll I don't like the entire "she's tricking us using Kanon and Shannon's work names". It's not even a dirty trick it's a cheap trick.
Marion is offline  
Old 2009-12-14, 18:03   Link #262
Letter from lost days ~
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Netherlands / Turkey
Age: 29
We'll just have to wait and see read the actual truth then (:
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Old 2009-12-14, 19:14   Link #263
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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
I'm not going to argue back due to spoilers, but I really hate theories which go "Oh when Beatrice refers to Shannon she really means a Shannon in America who died recently" or some such bull. Theories which attempt to twist the red to suit their own ends irritate me, as it opens a door where we can remodel the red to suit us however we like, and thus makes it completely useless in the process.
And if the wordgame is what I think you're referring to, that's a completely different thing from "Kanon is dead" or "Shannon is dead."
I agree. Ive seen some people that have played the VN use similar wordgame theories when it comes to whos dead.
CainSonozaki is offline  
Old 2009-12-14, 22:51   Link #264
Join Date: Mar 2008
death time is a fair game, tho.
maximilianjenus is offline  
Old 2009-12-15, 02:55   Link #265
Dlanor A. Knox
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Netherlands
Age: 25
Beato is using some kind of trick so she can say the person is death w/o him/her being rlly death.. Kanon or not
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Old 2009-12-15, 07:17   Link #266
Join Date: Dec 2006
My belief is this: if an idea requires that you "interpret" the red then it should be immediately discarded.

Why? When it comes down to it, the interpretation could very well be right, but I must remind myself that this is a story and as a result, in addition to following the rules it sets up for itself, an idea must also make narrative sense.

In other words, it's a common sense thing. Ask myself not only if it follows the rules in red but also "would I think this was dumb if I read it?"

And that is why I think that trying to heavily interpret the red is pointless. I imagine reading it: "No, see, Battler, when I said, Kanon is dead, I meant he was dead INSIDE!" or, "Actually, I was just talking about a bum on the street in France. Joke's on you."

Narratively, the red truth isn't just a random factoid that pops out of the ground. There are presumably two reasons why it is used:

1. In the interest of making it possible to play a game where you are guessing at the truth hidden behind a world where you can't even trust what you see, the red truth exists as a gesture of sportsmanship from Beatrice. As a result, there is no point in her giving a clue unless it's meant to be read as it is. If we stretch the meaning of what she says so far that something straightforward like "person is dead" can mean they actually never died, it loses any meaning it had and we might as well throw away the whole idea.

And so, while the consequences of what she says may not be what we initially expect, when you know the truth, it should then be possible to read the red truth without rolling your eyes. If I understand what you were referring to, this is the difference between her "word game" and the ones that are sometimes introduced.

Also, if the red truth is really up to loose interpretation, then one would wonder why Battler was unable to say he is Asumu's son in this episode, as he certainly considers that to be the case and it's presumably written that way in the public family register, even if it turns out that he isn't biologically related to her.

2. In the fourth game Beatrice has supposedly started to hold back on the original kind of hint. Now the red truth serves a different purpose, to counter Battler's blue. So, red truth stated in the fourth game must nullify something in the blue theory or there is no point in her saying it in the first place. If Beatrice theoretically said that the first twilight victims were dead, but she was actually talking about a criminal gang somewhere called first twilight, then there would be no point in saying it because it would do nothing to work against the blue.
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Old 2009-12-15, 08:53   Link #267
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I agress with Arkwright almost on all levels, except that I would say that a certain amount of freedom giving the Red Truth is still given.
Like for example the fact that we only know so far that there are 'No more than 18 people on this island'. Of course this is a playful remark, because 'No more than' (or 以上・・・いない in the original) says nothing about the actual number of people.

Beatrice is still playing a game and will of course bend the rules to her liking.
But I agree with the reasoning above, that there are limits to this bending. For example that the things said in Red are limited to the game board and things leading up to it and resulting from it...nothing that is not connected to it should have any mention in the game.
I would also disagree with what many people assume about the red truth being a lie or anything to begin with.

Arkwright hinted at something quite reasonable: The trust between the author and the reader...which is one of the basic principles of 推理小説 (detective novels)...assuming this trust is hurt, the whole story breaks apart, which is why of course an author should be interested in keeping it up, too.
Re-introducing the red truth at a later point of the story, of giving it new limits that go against something that was elaborated before, wouldn't only stire disbelief in the viewers/readers, but would also give them good reason to doubt anything....which in the end makes it impossible to reason.

It would be like starting a detective story set in an old mansion and it is explained on multiple occassions that there are hidden tunnels connecting the mansion and a nearby house...only to reveal in the final conclusion that it was impossible to use them because they accidently caved in a day before the murder.
Of course if you had hinted at them being unstable, or mentioned an explosion being heard in passing, the reader would have been able to guess...but introducing things for the sole reason of leading the reader astray, without a reasonable explanation in the end, always leaves the reader bitter...

And I don't know why, but I think Ryukishi is a better author than that.
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Old 2009-12-15, 08:55   Link #268
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Location: HK, China
There was trust between Beatrice, her league and Battler, but I doubt there was any trust between Bern, Lambda and Battler.
ijriims is offline  
Old 2009-12-15, 09:01   Link #269
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 33
Trust is pretty much one of the main issues of the entire series, as this greatly affects how people treat each other (for the Rokkenjima survivors) and how they believe each other (for the metaworld players).
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Old 2009-12-15, 10:17   Link #270
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
There was trust between Beatrice, her league and Battler, but I doubt there was any trust between Bern, Lambda and Battler.
I was not talking about trust between characters within an existing universe.
Of course the detective wouldn't trust a possible culprit, that is his reason for existence, to doubt.
It is about trust between us and Ryukishi, who created those rules to begin with.

A situation like Bern saying 'I went to get you sister from the future' to Battler is not problematic and nothing strange. Of course we can reason wether she lied or not...but even if she lied it would just be her devious character (which is how she was written) leading another character would be part of the plot.

But if she said 'Beatrice the witch with whom you are talking right now killed all the people on the island' and it later proved wrong, it would not only destroy the concept of red truth within the story and therefore rob the characters of a way to reason.
It would also rob the reader/viewer of any chance to reason and would imply that he was toyed with by the author from the beginning. That would hinder the reader from ever trusting anything introduced by the author ever again and would destroy the basis of 'investigation'.
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Old 2010-01-27, 13:54   Link #271
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I wonder what did Maria do in order to pass... it is sad that she wasn't the one who got killed, she annoys me -_-
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Old 2010-01-31, 16:46   Link #272
Arbane the Terrible
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Originally Posted by kitten320 View Post
I wonder what did Maria do in order to pass... it is sad that she wasn't the one who got killed, she annoys me -_-
If it makes you feel any better, in the sound novel Battler finds her corpse, without a mark on her. He guesses she was poisoned.
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