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Old 2010-03-11, 17:30   Link #6461
Jan-Poo
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nge's letter was the only one that was never found. She was sure she might have gotten one, but I'm not exactly sure the third letter even existed. If it did it doesn't follow the pattern since the rest of them were sent to the family of the servants. Why is Ange the only Ushiromiya to receive one?
Your pattern is wrong. The letters were not sent to the servant's relatives, they were sent to the direct relatives of the people that were at the family meeting of Rokkenjima in 1986.

Ange is the only Ushiromiya that didn't go there, so how could any letter be sent to some other Ushiromiya?

And Nanjo is not a servant. Even if some likes to think of him as one, he's definitely not a servant. Proof is the fact that he's allowed to dine with the family as a guest, unlike every other servant.

So we actually have 3 letters, to the son of the family doctor, one to the son of a servant and to the daughter of one of the 4 siblings. The only thing they have in common is that they are close relatives of someone who died in Rokkenjima.

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I don't really agree with anything else you've said, but I really want to re-emphasize this. I've yet to see a sufficiently reasonable justification for Shannon or Kanon to be pretending to be another person actually visible on the island.
It is very easy to imagine that if the shkannontrice is true it has very important implications on what is happening in this story. It is almost impossible to understand what exactly, but you can be 100% sure that provided the shkannon theory it's true there's no way it'll be just a dirty trick. You can expect tons of text describing the story in detail involving "Beatrice"'s past and how and why she ended up being Shannon, Beatrice and lastly Kanon. That will be something comparable to a certain "34"'s story from Higurashi. It won't be something that will be dealt with with just 2 sentences.


On other hands if Ssol's theory is true I can't see how this could have any profound implication. Jessica is merely missing from EP6, well what else could be said about this? It's just something that happen in one game and not even one of Beatrice's games.

The Erika doesn't exist theory is just slightly better. It would still be something that has nothing to do with Beatrice's game, it won't give us any insight on Beatrice's game and it won't be worth enough to have a "past story narration" to explain how it happened, although it might have a full talked explanation.
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Old 2010-03-11, 17:42   Link #6462
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
On other hands if Ssol's theory is true I can't see how this could have any profound implication. Jessica is merely missing from EP6, well what else could be said about this? It's just something that happen in one game and not even one of Beatrice's games.
Look back at the friggin' scene after the boat arrives. Kanon confesses to Jessica, is not shy about his feelings at all, and tells her his real name (maybe). In every other episode nothing like this happens until their lives are threatened but in this one Kanon seems to have no problems sharing what's in his heart to Jessica. The more I think about it, it's clear that this episode shows a completely different Kanon than any other episode. Kanon was delusional in episode 6.

By the way, the damn love trials occurred entirely in the meta world so there is no problem with Jessica being there and not being on the island on the game board.
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Old 2010-03-11, 17:54   Link #6463
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Things that happen in essentially the same way in more than one episode:
- Letters with keycard and number are sent.
- Maria receives the letter from "Beatrice" by the rose.
- Rudolf says he'll probably be killed tonight.
- Natsuhi's door is vandalized.
- The letter with the discord circle appears when Maria is present.
Therefore, I suggest that all of these events have a common origin. (While the letters to Ange, Nanjo's son, and Kumasawa's son are only mentioned in one episode, the letters were sent before Oct. 4, so should be the same across episodes.)
I think that Kumasawa and Rudolf are involved in this plot. (Rudolf because of his comments and because his son's birthday is part of the number; Kumasawa because she had the opportunity to deface Natsuhi's door and give Maria the discord letter.)

On the other hand, the murders vary heavily between episodes: who is killed, where are the bodies, how are they killed? So I think that the murderer(s) did not initially plan on a witch-themed murder, but changed plans when Maria's letter turned up. (Probably the killer planned for a non-supernatural crime, but possibly there was no plan for any violence until the letter appeared.)

Can anybody work this into a fuller explanation?
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Old 2010-03-11, 18:34   Link #6464
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Look back at the friggin' scene after the boat arrives. Kanon confesses to Jessica, is not shy about his feelings at all, and tells her his real name (maybe). In every other episode nothing like this happens until their lives are threatened but in this one Kanon seems to have no problems sharing what's in his heart to Jessica. The more I think about it, it's clear that this episode shows a completely different Kanon than any other episode. Kanon was delusional in episode 6.
Well I have no problem with that, but I don't see how this affects the statement you quoted. it's Kanon who is strange here, not Jessica.
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Old 2010-03-11, 18:36   Link #6465
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Well I have no problem with that, but I don't see how this affects the statement you quoted. it's Kanon who is strange here, not Jessica.
If Battler is the game master and knows the truth then why is he portraying Kanon as delusional? How is that not important to the story?
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- Natsuhi's door is vandalized.

I think that Kumasawa and Rudolf are involved in this plot. (Rudolf because of his comments and because his son's birthday is part of the number; Kumasawa because she had the opportunity to deface Natsuhi's door and give Maria the discord letter.)
What about Shannon? I'm pretty sure Shannon has the opportunity to deface Natsuhi's door as well.
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Old 2010-03-11, 18:54   Link #6466
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If Battler is the game master and knows the truth then why is he portraying Kanon as delusional? How is that not important to the story?
But what has this anything to do with Jessica missing? Whatever is the explanation you have in mind, couldn't it be true regardless?
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Old 2010-03-11, 19:02   Link #6467
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But what has this anything to do with Jessica missing? Whatever is the explanation you have in mind, couldn't it be true regardless?
Well, if Kanon is confessing his feelings of love to a figment of his imagination he's pretty messed up.
I see your point though. Battler could just as easily show this as a fake scene even if Jessica is on the island. Therefore, she doesn't necessarily have to be off the island for this.

I guess this theory has all the problems of Shkanon and Erika0 because I still need to explain what scenes are true and what scenes are false.
Basically, the problem is not us, it's Ryukishi. He created a riddle that makes no sense and trying to explain it leads to far out wild theories that completely mislead us from finding the truth.
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Old 2010-03-11, 19:24   Link #6468
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Your pattern is wrong. The letters were not sent to the servant's relatives, they were sent to the direct relatives of the people that were at the family meeting of Rokkenjima in 1986.

Ange is the only Ushiromiya that didn't go there, so how could any letter be sent to some other Ushiromiya?
The letter was supposedly addressed to Rudolf not Ange. If it existed at all, there should be more letters, that were sent to every Ushiromiya family member. And yet if that is true then there are no hints that Eva discovered a letter when she returned. There is a contradiction here.

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And Nanjo is not a servant. Even if some likes to think of him as one, he's definitely not a servant. Proof is the fact that he's allowed to dine with the family as a guest, unlike every other servant.
Well than what Nanjo said about himself and the other servants secretly placing sweets somewhere in episode 2 doesn't make any sense. It sounds like he's implying that he's a servant since he says Kumasawa does the same thing. So maybe even though he may not officially be one he thinks of himself as one. He's probably more like Gohda in rank though since he can be in the same room with them at Dinner.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-03-11 at 19:42.
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Old 2010-03-11, 19:44   Link #6469
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Rather, the problem I have with this and with what Ssol just proposed is that this kind of "tricks" do not seem to have a real purpose except being dirty tricks that trick us.

What I think it's important to consider is that even if you don't like the shkannon theory, you'd have to consider that it is heavily hinted in EP6. Renall explains this fact by saying it's a planned troll. That's an acceptable interpretation. But it can't be denied or ignored.

Now let's suppose it's a troll, if it is, it's a big one. I can't believe Ryukishi made all of this just for trolling. I can only find it probable if Ryukishi used it to hide something else.

That's why I can't think that Ryukishi created this whole situation using all those ambiguous reds, only to tell us: "hey well actually it's just that this time Jessica isn't on the island." or "it's just that this time Erika doesn't exist".

This would give us 0 insight on Beatrice's game, it would be something completely useless to the end of understanding what is really happening on Rokkenjima.
Here's the thing. Ryukishi told us several pieces of info about the "dirty trick" that he used in EP5.
  • It was originally planned to be used in EP3.
  • The content related to the trick was never discussed by Bernkastel, Erika, or Battler at all before EP6.
  • Its presence isn't strictly necessary for solving the mystery. That is, the trick doesn't relate to any critical piece of information that wasn't already available.
  • People who completely understand the "answer" should see through it easily.
  • If you don't see through it, you will almost certainly reach a specific wrong conclusion.
Based on that information, we can arrive at a couple of conclusions:
  • Whatever this trick is, we shouldn't expect it to give us blockbuster insight into the game, because if we saw through it, we probably already had the related information to begin with. On the contrary, if a proposed solution does seem to reveal something new and shocking about the core mystery, that itself should make us treat it with suspicion. In other words, the sole purpose of this trick is to be a massive red herring for everyone who didn't already figure out most of the truth.
  • This is a trick that was first presented in EP5. After EP5 came out, Ryukishi didn't say the trick would be venomous in six months, he said it was venomous now. By seeing through it, we should get some understanding about the truth of EP5 specifically.
  • The trick should point to a specific wrong answer. Ryukishi believes the trick is something phenomenally devious and evil, so we should probably be highly suspicious if practically the entire fanbase quickly converges on one explanation.
  • The trick was originally planned for EP3, so we shouldn't be surprised at all if there were already preparations for it in EP1 and EP2. It wouldn't be much of a trick if it was already contradicted before its presentation.
To me, all of this practically screams that Shkannon is a deliberate troll. It's based on a bunch of flimsy and totally circumstantial evidence from EP1 and EP2, it explains exactly nothing about EP5, and a huge portion of the fanbase has quickly decided it's true on the basis of a superficial reading of EP6. Not to mention it claims to expose a critical component of the mystery.

Compare Erika Doesn't Exist. It's completely extraneous to the original mystery, but it can't be seen through unless you totally understand the illusion rules. If you don't see through it, you almost invariably end up at Shkannon, which is a massive red herring that sabotages attempts to reach the truth. But if you do see through it, a bunch of weirdness from EP5 is explained.

If you buy Shkannon, what is the false solution that everyone else should arrive at? It can't be Erika Doesn't Exist, because everyone who arrived at that theory already knew about Shkannon and just deliberately chose to disregard it.
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Old 2010-03-11, 19:52   Link #6470
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Anyone else think that Nanjo is an accomplice? He's never in the First Twilight, and he definitely diagnoses someone who is alive (likely the culprit or a fellow accomplice) as dead. You could chalk this up to him being a crappy doctor, but since he manages to correctly diagnose the cause of death of Rosa and Maria in EP3 (it's in red that he is correct), he is not incompetent as a doctor unless he witnessed the deaths, in which case not revealing the killer's identity makes him guilty anyway. Thus, he is an accomplice.

You know, maybe there should be a crazy theory thread, more for lols than anything...
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Old 2010-03-11, 19:55   Link #6471
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Anyone else think that Nanjo is an accomplice? He's never in the First Twilight, and he definitely diagnoses someone who is alive (likely the culprit or a fellow accomplice) as dead. You could chalk this up to him being a crappy doctor, but since he manages to correctly diagnose the cause of death of Rosa and Maria in EP3 (it's in red that he is correct), he is not incompetent as a doctor unless he witnessed the deaths, in which case not revealing the killer's identity makes him guilty anyway. Thus, he is an accomplice.

You know, maybe there should be a crazy theory thread, more for lols than anything...
I'm not even sure that Nanjo is a real Doctor. Does he keep a stethoscope in his front pocket? Nobody knows...
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Old 2010-03-11, 19:58   Link #6472
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I bet Nanjo isn't an accomplice, just for the major mindfuck
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Old 2010-03-11, 20:04   Link #6473
Judoh
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I bet Nanjo isn't an accomplice, just for the major mindfuck
The only time I find him being an accomplice in anything is when he closes the window in episode 3. Besides that I always thought he was waiting out the whole meeting for some reason. He just seems so out of place there.
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Old 2010-03-11, 20:16   Link #6474
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@LyricalAura
I don't think the dirty trick of EP5 is related to the riddles of EP6. Ryukishi said that if you don't understand it you won't see through the illusion... but he said it before EP6.
In other words you are placing that sentence in the wrong context, making it look as if the illusion was shkannon even though in EP5 there was no such an illusion, on the contrary EP5 seemed to deny it.

As I always said the dirty trick is something that always existed, either way it wouldn't have any relevance on the whole picture. What Ryukishi meant to say is that he introduced the hints of that trick on EP5 rather than EP3. The fact that he said that Bern and the rest never "discussed" about it, proves that they are "aware" of it, they just do not say it, which is another reason why I don't think it can be "Erika doesn't exist".
I am almost sure that the dirty trick is the fact that the games are fictions and not kakera from a many world interpretation. I've reached that conclusion after EP5 because Ep5 was the first episode that really made me realize it, there are many subtle hints scattered around. and in EP6 and especially the most recent TIPS, everything seems to confirm that.

This interpretation fits a lot more imho, and it works regardless of EP6.

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The letter was supposedly addressed to Rudolf not Ange. If it existed at all, there should be more letters, that were sent to every Ushiromiya family member. And yet if that is true then there are no hints that Eva discovered a letter when she returned. There is a contradiction here.
And the sender was Ange Ushiromiya. What is really important is the sender not the receiver. Considering the method that beatrice used, the real receiver is the sender.
Why Eva should get any letter? The letters were sent on October 3, Beatrice knew that Ange wouldn't come, but she couldn't possibly know that Eva would survive. There is no contradiction.

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Well than what Nanjo said about himself and the other servants secretly placing sweets somewhere in episode 2 doesn't make any sense. It sounds like he's implying that he's a servant since he says Kumasawa does the same thing. So maybe even though he may not officially be one he thinks of himself as one. He's probably more like Gohda in rank though since he can be in the same room with them at Dinner.
You are forgetting Ange's perspective from 1998 which confirms Nanjo was a doctor. You'd have to question even her. Nanjo was never said to be a servant by anyone, where did you get this idea? And how can be ranked like Gohda, if Gohda was never allowed to see Kinzo, while Nanjo is?
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Old 2010-03-11, 20:54   Link #6475
Judoh
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And the sender was Ange Ushiromiya. What is really important is the sender not the receiver. Considering the method that beatrice used, the real receiver is the sender.
Why Eva should get any letter? The letters were sent on October 3, Beatrice knew that Ange wouldn't come, but she couldn't possibly know that Eva would survive. There is no contradiction.
Okay we're getting a bit off track here. What I meant in my theory originally was that there is nothing supporting a third letter other than Ange's vague memory of one. And it was never found. So a third letter was never confirmed to exist. She was six years old. Maybe she believes there was a letter, but maybe at the same time no letter was ever sent to her. Nanjo and Kumasawa were people who worked for the Ushiromiya family for quite a few years so it makes sense that they would be sent something, but Ange has no relationship with Kinzo or Beatrice for that matter. Who would send her a letter if one existed?

And right back at you. Why should Ange receive any letter? And why is Beatrice the sender?


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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Nanjo was never said to be a servant by anyone, where did you get this idea? And how can be ranked like Gohda, if Gohda was never allowed to see Kinzo, while Nanjo is?
Nanjo implies it. I never said he was said to be a servant. Where did you get that idea? In episode 2 he implies doing something that he says other servants do. Therefore he thinks of himself as a servant. Why should I have to repeat myself for this?

Spoiler for space:


Also when was Nanjo in Kinzo's room? Excluding episode 5, every scene where that happens is a fantasy scene. There are only two keys to Kinzo's room right? So if he is always there before dinner than what is he doing? Certainly he's not talking to Kinzo ....So is he playing chess with Genji to pass the time? I see no reason for him to even enter Kinzo's room since he's dead.

Also Nanjo doesn't wear the eagle his rank should be as low as Gohda's.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-03-11 at 21:38.
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Old 2010-03-11, 22:03   Link #6476
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I am almost sure that the dirty trick is the fact that the games are fictions and not kakera from a many world interpretation. I've reached that conclusion after EP5 because Ep5 was the first episode that really made me realize it, there are many subtle hints scattered around. and in EP6 and especially the most recent TIPS, everything seems to confirm that.

This interpretation fits a lot more imho, and it works regardless of EP6.
How is that a dirty trick? It doesn't have anything to do with the identity of the culprit or any of the mysteries on the island. There's no deceptive power as a red herring.

Also, assuming you're right, what do you consider to be the "huge bit of red text info" Ryukishi put in EP6 regarding the EP5 trick?
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Old 2010-03-11, 22:38   Link #6477
Judoh
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@LyricalAura
I am almost sure that the dirty trick is the fact that the games are fictions and not kakera from a many world interpretation. I've reached that conclusion after EP5 because Ep5 was the first episode that really made me realize it, there are many subtle hints scattered around. and in EP6 and especially the most recent TIPS, everything seems to confirm that.

This interpretation fits a lot more imho, and it works regardless of EP6.
Well I've seen you mention this a fiction thing a few times so I'm going to give my opinion on it. I think your emphasizing the way the story is written way too much. If you were like me I was reading it from the point of view that, it's a book, with fictional characters, written by a real life person who has fans. The definite tell for me that Umineko was a fictional story was the disclaimer at the start of all the games: "This is a fictional story any resemblance to any persons, events or parties is purely coincidental" I didn't need anything else. Whether the plot of the book is "fiction or not" has no bearing on the mystery at all really... and it's certainly not a "trick" it's just the way the author chooses to write the story... Whether there are "kakera", alternate worlds, or not it doesn't make it any harder to figure out who the mastermind is and it doesn't complicate the mysteries very much if you beleive the latter. If anyone thought there were going to be "Kakera" like in Higurashi than they probably didn't have much faith in the author anyway. In the end we're all just betting on the horse we like the most and the author reveals the winning horse at the end of the story.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-03-11 at 23:01.
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Old 2010-03-12, 01:26   Link #6478
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LyricalAura summed up my thoughts on the Shkanon/"Erika"/Dirty Trick thing better than I really could have done. More or less entirely what I'm thinking as well.
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
It is very easy to imagine that if the shkannontrice is true it has very important implications on what is happening in this story. It is almost impossible to understand what exactly, but you can be 100% sure that provided the shkannon theory it's true there's no way it'll be just a dirty trick.
Not really. I can't be 100% sure it's going to have any implications on the story (assuming for the sake of argument it's true). Why? Because if I accept it and look at the rest of the story through the lens of Shkanon, I learn basically nothing new. Now, Shannontrice or Kanontrice, yes, I learn some interesting things from those. But not from Shkanon. And Shkanon is not necessary to any -trice theory. Even assuming it's true, I don't really understand what it tells me.

Surely the truth should have implications more meaningful than that.
Quote:
You can expect tons of text describing the story in detail involving "Beatrice"'s past and how and why she ended up being Shannon, Beatrice and lastly Kanon. That will be something comparable to a certain "34"'s story from Higurashi. It won't be something that will be dealt with with just 2 sentences.
That's basically just making up the justification after the fact, though. If it's true, I should already be able to understand why it is necessary. If I can't, then either there's nothing there to understand, or I'm just not getting it and someone who does understand should be able to explain it to me. People who claim to understand and promote Shkanon have never really been able to adequately do that.

Explain why Shannon or Kanon is Beatrice? Sure, and I can see and even accept those explanations, because they make sense and provide insight. Explain why Shannon is Kanon or vice-versa? Not really.
Quote:
On other hands if Ssol's theory is true I can't see how this could have any profound implication. Jessica is merely missing from EP6, well what else could be said about this? It's just something that happen in one game and not even one of Beatrice's games.
I agree, it's kinda out there.
Quote:
The Erika doesn't exist theory is just slightly better. It would still be something that has nothing to do with Beatrice's game, it won't give us any insight on Beatrice's game and it won't be worth enough to have a "past story narration" to explain how it happened, although it might have a full talked explanation.
It sort of does though. Battler was distracted by the magic world actions of Beatrice (or EVA, or Goldsmith) in previous episodes. His "strong magic resistance" is basically his capacity to deny magic out of hand without bothering to actually put some thought into why he's seeing these scenes. He assumed Beatrice was being antagonistic, and that she was trying to mislead him. Once he realized she was leading him to the truth, he thought about all the previous games. Remember, this was at the end of ep5. So he had ep5 to work with as well.

So what does Erika Doesn't Exist give us? The ability to filter an illusionary scene through a different type of fake scene. Instead of magical witches, we get a magical detective. Her actions are no less ridiculous, but they are different. If Battler were to see through and realize this, he might realize - as we might, though many of us already did - that there is still value in the "fake" scenes. Even with Erika messing around, Battler could find an element of Beatrice in the game, something about her that would make him realize something about the first four games.

If the thing he suddenly realizes is that magical scenes are important and can be portrayed in many different ways, that's a pretty profound effect and it's fairly meaningful. Maybe not to the sleuthing reader, but to Battler at least, and to anyone who hasn't gotten further than Battler has by that point in ep5. It's useful, it's meaningful, and yet at the same time it has no new information for someone who has already realized that.

On the other hand, if Battler suddenly realizes Shkanon is true... why does that suddenly put all the pieces together? All he'd get from that is "Huh, I never saw them together, and never found Kanon's body." Literally, that's the only thing it teaches him. How does that get him - or a reader - closer to the truth? The truth being what actually happened, that is.
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Well I've seen you mention this a fiction thing a few times so I'm going to give my opinion on it. I think your emphasizing the way the story is written way too much.
Ep6 has direct support for his idea though. He's arguing that the individual stories themselves are fictions within the fiction of the meta-narrative (or is that meta-meta-narrative now?). It's kind of hard to wrap one's head around, but if one considers that ryukishi is explicitly trying to address the act of writing mysteries itself - something he has claimed is a theme of Umineko - then the theory is valid.

However, "it's a series of fictional accounts" does somewhat seem to suggest an "only one 1998 world is real" perspective. That would be... interesting, if somewhat depressing, even if Amakusa is Battler or something along those lines.

It certainly wouldn't lead to too many happy endings.
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Old 2010-03-12, 01:52   Link #6479
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
How is that a dirty trick? It doesn't have anything to do with the identity of the culprit or any of the mysteries on the island. There's no deceptive power as a red herring.

Also, assuming you're right, what do you consider to be the "huge bit of red text info" Ryukishi put in EP6 regarding the EP5 trick?
Ryukishi has not commented on the dirty trick after episode 6 to my knowledge. Remember, at the time of the interview he said that he might end it with EP6 but he also said that ending on either EP7 or EP9 would even be possible as well. It’s possible that he planned for the red truth to appear in episode 6 but it was not included in episode 6:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryukishi
It's something that neither Battler nor Erika nor Bernkastel has ever brought up in discussion. Maybe they didn't even realize that it was a riddle. Well, you'll probably find out soon. In EP6, a huge bit of red text info will appear regarding this point......according to the current plan.
We won’t know the answer to that until he comments on it again or episode 7 reveals something that confirms it.

Do you believe the games are fictional tales? Do you think there is a real world explanation that involves the games being fictional tales?

I wonder who a real world author of tales would be.
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So what does Erika Doesn't Exist give us? The ability to filter an illusionary scene through a different type of fake scene. Instead of magical witches, we get a magical detective. Her actions are no less ridiculous, but they are different. If Battler were to see through and realize this, he might realize - as we might, though many of us already did - that there is still value in the "fake" scenes. Even with Erika messing around, Battler could find an element of Beatrice in the game, something about her that would make him realize something about the first four games.
A magical detective? Sorry, but that is completely absurd and violates Knox's 2nd. It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique.

Perhaps you can elaborate on this theory a bit further.
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I agree, it's kinda out there.
Well, forget that ‘Jessica wasn’t on the island’ theory. Excuse me for analyzing the story and trying to come with alternate solutions.

I was planning to use Shkanon to explain the “18th person, 17 people” thing in the first place anyway. I don’t agree with Jan-Poo’s version of Shkanon but are you just going to assume that Battler never finds Kanon’s corpse and that is just a red herring? Battler never sees Kanon and Shannon together in the first four episodes? They were only given a single golden broach in episode 2, what is the symbolism of this in your opinion?

The significance of Shkanon in my theory shows the how far they are willing to go to attain love.
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Last edited by luckyssol; 2010-03-12 at 02:35.
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Old 2010-03-12, 02:21   Link #6480
Judoh
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Ep6 has direct support for his idea though. He's arguing that the individual stories themselves are fictions within the fiction of the meta-narrative (or is that meta-meta-narrative now?). It's kind of hard to wrap one's head around, but if one considers that ryukishi is explicitly trying to address the act of writing mysteries itself - something he has claimed is a theme of Umineko - then the theory is valid.
And I'm okay with that theory because it shows how Umineko is different from Higurashi. I knew that Umineko didn't have Kakera was obvious by episode 4 and 5. In Higurashi the point was to stop all of the things that happen in the X Y Z rules so that Rika can have a happy ending. Umineko is different. It looks to me that (unlike Higurashi) it should already have been shown that finding the truth in Umineko, and preventing the murders from happening =/= the same thing. So Umineko's X Y Z rules probably serve another purpose. The point isn't to get a happy ending since the end is bitter sweet and the murders are going to happen regardless of what Battler does. The point is to find out who the mastermind behind the "Rokkenjima accident" is so that it can be solved in 1998.

The problem I have with Jan-poo is that he puts way to much emphasis on the theory and abuses it by saying you can't solve it without knowing that. Which isn't true. The mastermind is going to be the same whether you beleive that there is a fiction within fiction narrative or not. There's only going to be one winning horse and you don't need that perspective to pick the right horse.

If all the games are fictions than to me that suggests that when they find the truth in all of them the truth should be released as the nonfiction version that summarizes the entire story. So my best guess is that when Ange finds the truth she writes an autobiography about the culprit or something.

or Ryukishi07 is the culprit. That would be the ultimate troll.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
However, "it's a series of fictional accounts" does somewhat seem to suggest an "only one 1998 world is real" perspective. That would be... interesting, if somewhat depressing, even if Amakusa is Battler or something along those lines.

It certainly wouldn't lead to too many happy endings.
Well I've been suspecting an "infinite game end" ever since the end of episode 5. Basically Battler discovers who the mastermind is, new information comes up that contradicts it, and then Battler goes "this can't be right" and the story ends on a cliffhanger with him suggesting a new game. He plays hundreds of games and has a happy existence in his world of infinite meta characters and debates. Arguing forever and ever. The irony of that ending is that Meta Battler denies the truth forever while Ange accepts it and publishes a book about it in the present day.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-03-12 at 02:43.
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