2010-05-23, 15:44 | Link #10541 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Quote:
The rescuer is defined as the person who reset the chain lock after Battler unset it. Let us set aside the question of whether the rescue was intentional. Kanon can still enter the room at this point in time and according to the red he does.
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2010-05-23, 15:48 | Link #10543 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Quote:
she completely severed all of the victims' heads. I'm wondering whether she carried the severed heads with her after she killed them.
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2010-05-23, 15:51 | Link #10544 | |
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Join Date: May 2009
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Quote:
I don't see a particularly logical reason to be cutting people's heads off in the first place, as it's very much out of character for any killing previously in the series. There were some sliced throats, but no complete severances. This could suggest a new killer, or the use of a non-preferred weapon. |
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2010-05-23, 15:51 | Link #10545 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Quote:
Oh wait but she can't break the seal that way.
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2010-05-23, 16:18 | Link #10546 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Quote:
I'm also wondering if Battler knew about how one or more of the mothers usually survived the first twilight in the question arcs and if he deliberately set up the game this way knowing that.
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2010-05-23, 17:41 | Link #10547 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Quote:
One of the basic tenets of the ghosterika is that the "Erika" in red truths refers to a person in a gameboard even if that person isn't actually Erika Furudo. That "Erika" has a body, is in the gameboard, and being the detective she should have an absolutely reliable perspective. The idea that Erika doesn't have a POW then is completely unreasonable. She has a POW. Even admitting she isn't physically in the gameboard, she still has a POW as a spectator from the metaworld. If you think that that isn't a POW then you are redefining the meaning of POW.
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2010-05-23, 17:56 | Link #10548 | |
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Join Date: May 2009
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Quote:
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2010-05-23, 18:33 | Link #10549 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Quote:
To further clarify that yet again, Erika has a 'point of view', but my idea is, that as Erika does not exist in red, from that point of view, the events on the board cannot be seen directly, and are only heard of -- from the current gamemaster or possibly other meta-entities. Which means that while Erika has an Objective Detective Viewpoint, from that viewpoint she can only say that it is a fact, that Gamemaster told her that Erika did X... which has no bearing on what really happened on the board. What we see as Erika's adventures and actions on the board are actually nothing but magic scenes, to be taken with the same scrutiny as other magic scenes.
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2010-05-23, 18:41 | Link #10550 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Quote:
So she has to be relaying someone else's lie.
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2010-05-23, 18:52 | Link #10551 | |
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Join Date: May 2009
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Quote:
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2010-05-23, 19:26 | Link #10552 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Quote:
Imagine, for example, a story wherein the Hero ends up with about 24 hours of memory loss. He is then told by multiple people that during those 24 hours, a closed circle murder occurred, and he was present, and they describe various scenes from what happened. After piecing together a theory he realises it works only if he has been the culprit, but it is well supported by testimony. Later he finds out that he was not anywhere near this place, but was hospitalised -- and all the testimony actually converged to make him think he was in the closed circle with everyone, because it was a deliberate lie by multiple people for different unrelated reasons. Contrived, I know, but I'm not about to write one right now. Is the Hero a detective in this story? Undeniably yes. Was his perspective reliable? Yes. Was he actually there? Nope. In Umineko that works easier, because the gamemaster is the central relay who tells the story and can twist the truth in a more organised fashion. I'm not sure it's very well supported for Erika, but the alternatives seem to be worse:
No, really?
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2010-05-23, 21:01 | Link #10553 |
Intellectual Rapist
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
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The key in the whole detective issue is that the detective is not reliable. The detective has the potential to find key information but can also miss it. For example, Battler. Battler did zip as detective though he was claimed to be detective for the first 3 episodes.
I think detective in this story is more like a super power, Spider-Man isn't constantly shooting webs but he can choose to do so. I am not exactly sure what Oliver is trying to say but this would be my opinion on detectives in Umineko. |
2010-05-23, 21:07 | Link #10554 | |
Blick Winkel
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
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Quote:
The mystery cannot be solved with clues not presented to the reader. The detective can miss clues. However, all the clues that are used in the "verdict" must be discovered by the detective (and thus the reader). So, Battler's enlightenment in Episode 5, if he is indeed the detective in Episodes 1-4, can only incorporate information that Battler finds and we are given. Since Erika is the detective, then she cannot "lie" to us, or "withhold information" from us. ...The problem becomes two things: 1.) Who is Erika? 2.) Is this really a fair-play mystery in the first place? |
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2010-05-23, 21:27 | Link #10555 | |
Intellectual Rapist
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
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Quote:
Spoiler for Episodes 4-6?:
Last edited by Smeckledorf; 2010-05-23 at 21:45. |
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2010-05-23, 21:53 | Link #10556 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Quote:
Even those who speculate that Erika ended up on Rokkenjima (which is a farfetched theory totally made up by "witch hunters") say that Erika washed there still alive, not dead. It's not the first time that I come across this false rumor.... @Oliver: There are two problems I have with your way to see it. The first is the fact that you assume Erika is seeing the gameboard through the eyes of the Game Master. This is totally at odd with what we see in EP6. Since the Game Master of EP6 is Battler and if really everything that Erika sees is filtered through Battler's eyes, then how it is possible that Erika can do anything without Battler knowing it? For Example, how Erika can have a 100% certainty that Natsuhi died, while Battler does not? And here comes the second problem. The matter of having a 100% reliable perspective but a not reliable source of information is a logic loophole that I don't think would be allowed by Dlanor's standards. And the problem here comes from the fact if really Erika doesn't have a 100% reliable source of information, then she couldn't tell with 100% certainty that Natsuhi and the others were dead.
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2010-05-23, 22:09 | Link #10557 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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Quote:
- answers - restating a mystery presented in 1-4 but in a way that would cause you problems if you didn't know already But that EP5-6 will not bring up new mysteries. For example, none of us are fooled into thinking that Mr. Kaasan represents a new 19th person on the island. He is not a new mystery but a restatement of an earlier problem that you can't have a new Person X on the island, no matter how compelling the idea is. So we've started thinking that Mr. Kaasan is one of the existing guys calling Natsuhi. However, I think all these theories about Erika came about because people were desperate to explain the count of 17 people if you included Erika. But before this, no one was trying to do anything about her in say, EP5. If you view that EP5-6 present no new mysteries then this count of 17 should be something solvable with information from EP1-4. The theories that Erika do not exist can only be made with EP5-6 information. I think we've always had this vague notion that Beatrice was two people because of the Suit-Beatrice in EP2 and the usual long-dress Beatrice (not the meta one, but the one on the gameboard.) EP6's split into Moetrice and Older-Sister-Beatrice kinda provided the answer to us that yes, there were two Beatrices created for two different purposes. One to 'be' the witch of legend and the other one was created to love Battler. And of course we have the hint from Meta-Beatrice herself that she's some kind of rigged explosion event or device. 8) By the way, my bet is on Shannon portraying the Beatrice that loves Battler and Jessica portraying the Beatrice of Legend. Though I'm not sure it's always divided on those lines. Some people have also speculated Rosa portrays Beatrice. (At the very least she lies for her faction.) By the way, in line with the theory I put forth earlier that the servants are also maintaining some kind of illusion... If Shannon is being forced to portray Beatrice, this seems to make more sense. George would feel the need to 'fight the whole family' and Shannon would want to get away from the island and the two would resort to more dangerous moves if they felt threatened. |
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2010-05-23, 22:11 | Link #10558 | |
Intellectual Rapist
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
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Quote:
If Shanon is Beatrice then I would say Battler broke a promise to her and that was his sin. It would explain why Beatrice would get so emotional over a matter that did not particularly involve her. Since Shanon would be Beatrice but Beatrice would not be Shanon. |
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2010-05-23, 22:23 | Link #10559 | ||
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Quote:
a quote I found from /seacats/ Quote:
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