2010-07-15, 15:36 | Link #13921 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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I'm really not so fond of the idea that shkanon can be true in one episode and not in another. If it's true it must be a core truth, something that can't really be changed by the Game Master.
The same goes for ghosterika. If she doesn't exist then that means it is impossible for her to exist in Rokkenjima, else I really can't see why she would only appear as a ghost. That being said we are all facing a big dilemma of how 18 people could be seen in the same room in EP5 despite the fact such a thing was denied in red and despite the fact that a detective was present. chronotrig believes to have the solution to this problem, however it doesn't seem very probable to me. Another more common belief is that Erika's absolute perspective is simply a lie. While it sounds less far-fetched to me, it's still something that completely defies everything that has been told to us and that would make me question the credibility of anything that happens in the metaworld. Do anyone have a better idea? Personally I'm kinda at loss in this case.
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2010-07-15, 15:52 | Link #13922 |
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Join Date: Sep 2007
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I really don't see where you guys are coming from on this. On the one hand, you admit that EP5 makes no sense as presented and that a lot of the truth is hidden or twisted. On the other hand, you claim that certain statements must be true no matter what, even though I've shown things that could point to the contrary and you have shown no proof.
Here's yet another possibility for getting around this: when was meta-Erika created? It's possible that Bern was able to put piece-Erika on the board, but there's a lot of evidence suggesting that it was Lambda. If so, when was Bern given control of Erika's piece? Do we know for a fact that Lambda gave her control as soon as Erika washed up? The first time we even see meta-Erika is well after the gold has been discovered, and long after the scene where everyone appeared in the parlor. So, what if Bern was given control of Erika sometime after the parlor scene? The opening scenes, including Erika's dramatic entrance, were shown to her in the same way Battler saw them. In fact, if this weren't the case, it would mean that the first chapter or so of the replay would have been mostly original material for Battler's benefit, since Erika is clearly shown from an outside perspective. I'd hardly call that a replay. In this case, Bern has already seen the parlor scene just as we have (meaning that the replay was actually fair for this part, hardly an ridiculous assumption). She saw it from Battler's perspective, and saw Kanon and Shannon together. By this point, it would not have been in the least bit stupid of her to assume that this was the total list of people on the island. So, in the future, she had no need to worry about problems like that. In other words, Bern's assumption was stupid only if nearly every person who denies Shkanon based on that scene is similarly stupid. Why should she force Lambda to go back and check everything again with Erika? What reason could Battler possibly have for lying about Shannon and Kanon both being there? Has the thought of Shkanon even crossed her mind? (Let's be fair now; the vast majority of readers heard of Shkanon from someone else instead of thinking it up themselves.)
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2010-07-15, 16:00 | Link #13923 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Anyway again I can't accept this interpretation. Bern knew that Battler wasn't the detective anymore since the beginning. Even if she didn't know she still learned about it later and what's more important even Meta-Erika learned about that. Again you need to assume that Erika's level of intellect is below that of the average player of Umineko. Well that apart your theory is simply devoid of any real clue to support it. And BTW why you want at all costs to make us accept it as truth when you are not sure yourself about its validity?
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2010-07-15, 16:03 | Link #13924 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
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I'll try making a poorly drawn diagram to show what I mean.
Spoiler for Horrible diagram:
Kanon is described by Battler as being behind Gohda. Now, if he's somewhere where Battler would be able to see him and Erika wouldn't (due to Gohda's large frame) then Erika would find nothing odd about the way Lambda is telling the story. However, she won't have actually witnessed Kanon with her own eyes, and Kanon might not be in that position at all (with everyone else thinking he's just out busy in the garden). |
2010-07-15, 16:05 | Link #13925 |
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Exactly my point. I'm not telling you to accept this as the truth. Nowhere have I offered proof that this is the answer. All I'm saying is that to you cannot prove that Erika must have been able to figure out Shkanon. In fact, if Shkanon is true, it is impossible that Erika found out about it in EP5, as EP6 shows. So, if Shkanon is true, it proves that Lambda must have had some way to keep Shkanon a secret from Bern, or at least Erika. Since that would have been pretty much Lambda's only goal (she wasn't trying to win), then it should be no surprise that she succeeded in it.
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2010-07-15, 16:24 | Link #13926 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Seeing everyone in a room except one person is suspicious enough. In addition Erika is depicted as being in the same place with Shannon and Kanon in other instances. Quote:
I have never said that there is no explanation to this mystery. I simply said that I don't find your explanation probable. And If you noticed, I asked for other interpretations. If I really thought there was no explanation at all I wouldn't ask for one. I'm quite sure there is one, but it doesn't have to be yours, and it isn't certain at all that we can find it before Ryuukishi himself will clarify this point.
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2010-07-15, 16:47 | Link #13927 |
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I cannot accept the notion that Erika's piece-existence, whatever it might be, was handed over to Bern at a particular time and place and that she was in no way suspicious of any events which may have transpired before that point. Bern does not play fair, and she does not trust Lambda.
People cling to the "replay" notion as though it's provable that the replay is not an exact reproduction. While it's certainly possible it isn't, it's equally possible that it is as accurate a representation of the game up to that point as Lambda is able to make it. And I don't think a deliberate inaccuracy or perspective trick would have escaped the notice of Battler, Erika, or Bern, especially in the lattermost case where we know that she (if no one else) saw the original events and the replay. I think you might be able to slip something past her once. Twice? She's pretty sharp. Maybe not infallible, but I think it's a stretch to think she wouldn't question a scene where Lambda declares everyone on the island is present with a conspicuous absence of numbers. So can Piece-Erika's perspective be accessed even if the narrative doesn't rely on it, or not? I'm not denying that Battler's perspective might be falsified, but if it were, there is no way that Shkanon would have escaped the notice of either Erika or Bernkastel. If that's true, there is likewise no way they would have been bamboozled by it in ep6. That's not to say an alternative doesn't exist, if Bern or Erika can have a plausible motivation to allow Battler to be presented with a falsified replay that neither objects to.
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2010-07-15, 17:26 | Link #13928 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Brazil - São Paulo
Age: 31
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2010-07-15, 17:39 | Link #13929 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
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Well, it'd probably be Lambda doing her best to ensure that neither Bern nor Erika realise about it.
You might say "You can't trick Erika" but... she's actually rather careless, in some ways. After all, she let 6 non-dead bodies slip past her in episode 5. And 6 fake deaths slip past her in episode 6 until she retroactively killed them. If she received the red truth "Everyone is in this room" she probably isn't gonna bother to check that all 18 people are accounted for. |
2010-07-15, 17:42 | Link #13930 | |
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2010-07-15, 17:50 | Link #13931 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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On the underlying layer, there are only 17 people, one of whom was playing the role of the character "Erika". That character was created by somebody, probably Piece Battler on the phone with Jessica, for the game they were going to play. However, neither of those facts matter to Erika's perspective because they apply to a level of reality she doesn't exist on. What she sees is the truth of the game that the "more real" people are playing. Bern never realized what was going on because she thinks the board only consists of a real world and lies by the game master, and has no idea a middle layer of truth exists at all. Now if only I could come up with a consistent way of prying the red truths from the two layers apart, it might be possible to move forward from there...
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2010-07-15, 17:59 | Link #13932 | ||
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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I just thought of something. About the last few lines in the epitaph for praising the wise.
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I don't have an interpretation for resurrecting the lost love, but I thought if the other lines were metaphors maybe this could be too.
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2010-07-15, 18:00 | Link #13933 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2009
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2010-07-15, 18:01 | Link #13934 |
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Location: Russia, Moscow
Age: 35
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I still can't understand how Shkannon can get past the last riddle of ep6.
It was stated clearly that three bodies have entered the room and only one left the room, as well as only the person can use his name |
2010-07-15, 18:04 | Link #13935 | |
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That aside, the burden most assuredly is on a person who believes Shkanon to be true to reconcile Erika's perspective problems in ep5 and ep6 alike. Every explanation I've seen is inconsistent at best and a dodge at worst. There exists, at present, no satisfying way in any theory to why Erika can't see that there are only 17 people present in ep5 yet can at the same time view events not depicted by anyone in the narrative in ep6. It's a flat contradiction. To everyone's theory. It is intensely problematic.
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2010-07-15, 18:13 | Link #13937 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2010
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And it's not so much a matter of being unable to see as just not realising. I mean, you'd expect Bernkastel to at least mention it after 4 episodes, but she seems completely oblivious to the possibility of Shkannon. Therefore it wouldn't be odd if Erika is equally oblivious (she doesn't see Kanon >at all< in episode 6 anyway). |
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2010-07-15, 18:17 | Link #13938 | |
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In any event, you have to admit that the scene where Battler looks at everyone and sees Shannon and Kanon together can easily be viewed as a hint supporting the Shkanon theory. In fact, it's the first time I ever thought of the theory as anything more than a somewhat pointless coincidence that some people took too seriously.
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2010-07-15, 18:39 | Link #13939 | |
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Because no, I don't admit that.
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2010-07-15, 18:45 | Link #13940 |
ANTI-Nonsense
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Not a Hijack, But Really Gobsmacked N00b
Not trying to get in anyone way here, but I'd appreciate it if some the gurus here could give me their impressions of what's next for the series and-or what in the world happened in Episode 6.
See, I just got done reading it, and I shamefully admit, I was kinda letdown by it all. In hindsight, Episode 6 really felt like one long gigantic shoujo love story that some folks have probably been clamoring for a while now, but if there is one Episode I can call "Filler", sadly, this has to be the one. Yes, Ryukishi dropped some pretty snazzy new hints, but I still don't feel I'm any closer to figuring out just what are the real guts and bolts running beneath the stage yet. The other Episodes in comparison were drolly stringing me along to become more engrossed in the mystery, but this time---it didn't happen. I suppose, in that respect, I should be grateful that seems to be the intention in Episode 7: to rip art even more of the stage's curtains and lay bare more of its ugly innards. Hey, I loved the character development, and the new characters were just totally off the wall. But even, the now expected final clash at midnight "Event", this time around felt really watered down compared to the example of excellence set by the previous episodes. I'm not trying to be the pessimist here, but even the seemingly shorter length of Episode 5 felt better than what I just digested. ...although I suppose I should admit that I feel Episode 5 had the best 24:00 Answer Session in the entire saga thus far. Guess I just set my expectations too high for something even more stupendous... Anyways! O Wise Ones, please help me renew my faith in this series. Right now, I just really don't know what I supposed to have "Gotten" from Episode 6. Yes, there's a couple things that resonated with me, namely: the deepening conspiracy surrounding Ange, and we got another look Mystery Person X who could be "Origin" behind the present Beatrice. Other than that, all this business about "Love" and "Furniture" went right off the deep end!
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