2010-08-24, 01:36 | Link #8721 | |||
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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Making use of a glow stick is a nice try though since the bus is dark inside. They could have attached high powered tac-lights to their weapons though and stormed the bus with small arms like SMGs and pistols rather than the AR-15 carbine mods. I would rather they duct tape high-powered flashlights to their rifles instead. The escape door is the worst place of entry IMO. Besides, there is a big mistake in their entry tactics - 1. The objective is not properly illuminated at night. Light can at least pass through the curtains and disorient the hijackers. 2. STACKING - That is the panic moment of the SWAT team. They stumbled, and why is there only a three-man stack at the front? The stack should cover the entire side of the bus so messages can be passed down fast enough. 3. Lighting up the bus - the glow stick could be better thrown from the front or the back of the bus. Or even better, flares. Quote:
If you ask me about professionalism of the police, I would say it would be better if they blow the whole bus up. The Russians did the same in the Moscow Theater siege by flooding irritants through the air-con vents and even better, Beslan which they sent a T-72 and fired three tank rounds into the school. Quote:
Finally, a bus hijack is the most difficult to rectify compared to other hostage scenarios. Cramped spaces, little room for surprise, there is bound to be casualties - so in most cases it would always be easier to blow the whole bus up, write off the hostages as casualties and collaterals, then forwarding a "If you think you can do better, give suggestions or be there. Otherwise, STFU." to all relevant bleeding heart groups. Funny that out of so many posts, there is only one sensible one :
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2010-08-24, 02:10 | Link #8723 | |
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
Age: 43
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@SaintessHeart, at night SpecOps can use the advantages of night vision and infrared cameras. The attacker would still think he is protected in the darkness, but his warmth would tell people outside where he is (only possible through the windows, not the metal). Storming the bus is a different matter. However, after the bus driver was safe - it could have been done from the front side (on the large window use taped explosives that cut a frame into the front window after throwing in flashbang grenades from the sides). The whole thing must be executed in under 2 minutes. But, and that is where I am with you... it requires the correct equipement.
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Last edited by Jinto; 2010-08-24 at 02:20. |
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2010-08-24, 02:22 | Link #8725 | |||
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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Besides, I have already iterated that : Quote:
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Frame charges aren't cheap despite its widespread appeal in hostage scenarios. The frame itself has to be heavily reinforced with ceramics and kevlar to direct the blast forward. Also, from what I have learnt, using it is rather risky because the shrapnel it propels forward is no different from firing a shotgun at high velocity into the bus - possibly slicing through the front seats and killing passengers. Stun grenades are effective, but some SWAT teams aren't allowed to use them because of PR reasons - bleeding heart groups spread propaganda about how it can cause shock and heart attacks on passengers when it only applies to a minority. So I proposed the decision of blowing up the bus instead since no matter what the police do, it would still be met with opposition who use the scenario for their own political purposes and spread panic.
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Last edited by SaintessHeart; 2010-08-24 at 02:34. |
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2010-08-24, 02:39 | Link #8726 |
MJ - Forever King of Pop
Join Date: Dec 2008
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Oh yeah, blowing up the bus, HUH? Very smart of you.
They didn't have the proper equipments. They had no plans. They were in panic. They might end up killing more hostages than the gunman did. They are the PNP. Feel free to defend them.
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2010-08-24, 02:57 | Link #8727 | |||
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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You can't blame the police in this case due to their lack of proper training and equipment. You blame the politicians who allocated them their budget. Quote:
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Being the PNP doesn't mean that they should not be defended for their actions, or at least the SWAT team themselves. And without proper equipment, plans or professionalism, all the more we should defend them from public ire, which is usually misguided armchair politicking, or simply sheep following the commentary from opposing political parties. Like I said, if you have a better plan, present it. Otherwise, don't espouse the "rights" and "wrongs" when you aren't exactly sure what you would have done yourself in their place. And with that commentary, what do you think they should have done? Leave the hijacker hanging?
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2010-08-24, 02:58 | Link #8728 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
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After watching YouTube about the hostage situation, I must say we should consider the turnout of the event as lucky. When the police start hitting the window with the hammer, the gunman knew he is toast. I am surprised there are survivors at all. With all the time lapse between the window hit and the entrance, the gunman can go around shooting hostages execution style and then kill himself.
And some people mention fear, of the police? You got to be kidding me, right? The police/ firefighter/ security guard/ armies are trained for this kind of situation. If you cannot cope for fear then you should quit the job. Remember there are hundreds of firefighters die during 9/11 attack when they try to rescue the survivors? They could totally sit back and chill and wait until everything die down before they go in and dig up the corpse, but they didn't. |
2010-08-24, 03:12 | Link #8729 | ||
MJ - Forever King of Pop
Join Date: Dec 2008
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2010-08-24, 03:14 | Link #8730 | |
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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There is an ad verbatim recount of an ex-executioner here who trained a junior officer as his understudy. The latter freaked out and quitted his job in the civil service because he couldn't bring himself to pull the lever and drop the death-row inmate. I don't blame him because he's still human. Similarly, I have seen people who freeze up during my boot camp's live grenade throw - and it isn't like a war film where the grenade just go poof, the explosion literally shakes the ground from where you have thrown that bomb. I believe it is a mental block factor which freezes people in place as the brain couldn't discern the next action - fear isn't as easily overcome as it is shown in popular media.
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2010-08-24, 03:18 | Link #8731 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
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Many are started to point fingers on who's to blame including the President (Srsly, crab mentality). But another sector who is also at fault is the media, who broadcast the whole thing on air.
Well, they know that the bus has a TV and a radio. They know that Mendoza (the hostage taker) is watching and listening. Since they even broadcast what the police are doing, Mendoza was aware of it. They even broadcast the arrest of his brother which actually provoked him and started shooting. |
2010-08-24, 03:24 | Link #8732 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
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Your two examples just prove my point: they are in training exercise. So whoever think they cannot overcome fear should quit so they don't freeze in real life situation. Of course people freeze up during live grenade throw. I am sure that I will freeze up on the first training as well. However, after many trainings I am sure everyone who stayed in the force can get use to it. |
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2010-08-24, 03:28 | Link #8733 | |||
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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Another thing : it is a conscription over here. There is no quitting unless we declare ourselves gay or medically prove ourselves to be mentally handicapped. Of course, it boils down to the personal psychology, Alderfer-Maslow ERG, blah blah blah which most people will never attempt to understand. It is always much more easier to criticise someone for the things he/she can't do and feel morally high and good about it rather than asking ourselves why they can't.
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2010-08-24, 03:31 | Link #8734 | |
MJ - Forever King of Pop
Join Date: Dec 2008
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That said, I wonder if there is any kind of procedures or jammer device that can prevent the gunner from knowing the outside via radio and especially TV...?
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2010-08-24, 03:47 | Link #8735 | ||
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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Though they could have been less hestitant in what they did by smashing every window looking for entry rather and sit there and wait for the truck. Quote:
Honestly speaking, they have conducted the raid at the wrong time - at night, where the darkness in the bus already made it bad enough for maneuvering. They could have kept negotiating and pushed for more time to cover everything. Sacking police officers won't solve problems in its aftermath - proper training and equipment buildups through accounted budget allocations still constitute much to national security and reinforcement. It would be best that they take this as a learning scenario and get down to work rather than just shifting blame and playing political games.
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2010-08-24, 03:57 | Link #8736 | |
MJ - Forever King of Pop
Join Date: Dec 2008
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There are quite some conspiracy theories regarding the Philippines government's reactions regarding the whole incident, such as their absurd reluctance to negotiate or fulfill the gunman's needs, and all those unnecessary actions that could provoke the gunner (and they did), as if they were trying to hide up some truths and didn't want the gunner to surrender and walk out alive. Unfortunately, all these investigations are going to be conducted by themselves, so we may never know the true story...
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2010-08-24, 04:08 | Link #8737 | |
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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2010-08-24, 05:29 | Link #8740 |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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The death toll for the Manila tragedy is confirmed at eight, not nine.
Rationalisations and justifications aside, my personal opinion is that of disbelief over the sheer incompetence of the would-be rescuers. That said, I don't suspect foul play. In general, most governments rule out negotiation with hostage takers; doing so would encourage others to use the same means to force a response. Negotiations, when they happen at all, are meant to be no more than a stalling tactic for rescuers to plan the operation. One thing is for certain: This does nothing to improve the Philippines' reputation. |
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current affairs, discussion, international |
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