2010-09-12, 23:06 | Link #1281 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
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I counter that with the death of Kanon in the first game.
Moreover, the suicide itself isnt the crime of the story, therefore Dine's 18th doesnt apply to a suicide being a part of the story being told itself. Quote:
We would be using "motive x", but it'd work. Quote:
Actually, if we take the tact that someone faked their death in that room, then we could only conclude the individual to be George, since he's the only one of those three Battler didn't check. Shannon personality death followed by George stomping Yasu's face into a stake and leaving it on the dresser? |
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2010-09-12, 23:18 | Link #1282 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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(referring to Kanon's death in ep1) All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon! Kanon did not commit suicide Kanon did not die in an accident! again only pseudocide is left as an answer.
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2010-09-12, 23:23 | Link #1283 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
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2010-09-12, 23:23 | Link #1284 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
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>_> But w/e. |
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2010-09-13, 00:05 | Link #1285 |
The Death!
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Purgatorio
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I can name one theory that has to do with Kanon that has nothing to do with personalities, and fulfills the Red TRUTHS.
He faked his DEATH. Where does it say in Red that he had DIED? It was never confirmed, Jessica and Nanjo were the ones who told the rest of Kanon's STATUS.
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2010-09-13, 00:23 | Link #1286 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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In this case at least, I can deny that personality death occurred.
Kanon didn't commit suicide, so he didn't kill his own personality. And, all of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! In short, no kind of human or dead person could have killed Kanon! This rules out all of the other human characters. The killer can be an alternate personality of Kanon, but only if personalities don't count as "survivors" or "humans". However, it was established in EP3 that absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board. Therefore, personalities may not participate in this game board unless they are humans. Based on that contradiction, any kind of split personality is also ruled out as Kanon's murderer, so it's impossible for Kanon to be dead (barring Frisko's theory, which is probably a Knox violation).
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2010-09-13, 03:28 | Link #1287 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Until a certain twilight, all deaths were homicides in any game. The late games were stopped early, so there were only homicides. Quote:
When Will detects that someone has faked their death or some other trick, he uses "Illusion to illusion" line. See his ep1 1st twilight (Shannon faked), 5th twilight (Kanon faked) explanations, for example. However, when the victims are really dead and there are no major illusions he uses "Earth to earth". See the murder of Rosa and Maria in ep3, that was almost immediately confirmed with red and he used that line for it. |
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2010-09-13, 07:47 | Link #1288 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
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As for Will's "A coffin is not a locked room" I thought it was a reference to one of Ellery Queen's novels, that has almost the exact same quotation.
Spoiler:
So yeah, that's what I took it as. Almost all of Will's responses were, word per word, a quotation from some Golden Age detective. I just automatically assumed the same tricks were used for those locked rooms as the locked rooms/quotations were very similar. |
2010-09-13, 08:03 | Link #1289 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
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It may be a reference, but Will said that "There is no one who would argue against a coffin being a closed room.", not that "a coffin is not a locked room".
Could it be that the trick used is the opposite of what you've described and the victims really died in that room? Last edited by cmos; 2010-09-13 at 08:21. Reason: better use LyricalAura's translation, I guess |
2010-09-13, 08:08 | Link #1290 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Alright, this part fits a bit better, though it still has locked room over closed room. "The criminal wanted us to be chasing a ghost, chasing an illusion. But this locked room he so carefully prepared to us is useless. After all, a coffin is a coffin. No one would argue that a coffin is a locked room. Yet one person did. That person was, of course, the true murderer. Isn't that right, [here he points to the killer, so I'm going to cut it here]" |
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2010-09-13, 09:19 | Link #1291 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Then, what about a theory like this?
At the time Rosa had Battler open Natsuhi's room, she had all five master keys. The keys never left her hands after she gained possession of them. However, it was never confirmed that Rosa received each key at the time she believed she did. One of the "master keys" she acquired earlier was a fake. The culprit used the real key to construct the locked room, and then had Maria switch it with the fake key in her bag. This could have been done most easily during the time when Rosa and Battler were both asleep in the parlor. ...Although, the door and windows were locked from the inside so external tricks are probably all denied anyway. EDIT: Another version. Rosa was still in fake murder mode, and was fully aware that she'd received a fake key because this was planned ahead of time. While Battler was asleep in the parlor, the culprit passed the real key to her through the window. This is why she checked the window locks before leaving with Genji.
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Last edited by LyricalAura; 2010-09-13 at 10:07. |
2010-09-13, 10:28 | Link #1292 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Either way I have to say I was impressed with his quotations. They could be just obscure references that only 3 people in the world will get or clues. Either way I'm one of those 3 people so I'm happy. |
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2010-09-13, 10:43 | Link #1293 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Turns out, the most exhaustive reference list of his works is in Japanese. It's quite possible that more than three people in the world will get those references, but most of those who will are in Japan.
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2010-09-13, 11:09 | Link #1294 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
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It's worth noting that Clayton Rawson's novel Death from a Top Hat was ranked #7 in the list of best locked room mysteries of all time.
Which is worth noting, since the top 10 is pretty much taken over by Carr(who won 1st place, of course.) Ryuukishi sure did his research. I was able to find Death from a Top hat, No Coffin for the Corpse and The Headless Lady. I found those 3 together last year. But I have yet to find his short stories anywhere. |
2010-09-13, 11:35 | Link #1295 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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We checked on this; Rawson's work is, amusingly, vastly more available in Japan than it is in his native America. I'm quite surprised, honestly; you'd think there'd be some mystery libraries in America or something. It's possible there are, they're just probably a bit obscure. Certainly you can't find anything by Rawson at a public library in New York or Dallas (places I've lived and have library cards).
Except, amusingly, a book on children's magic by Rawson (a stage magician, he apparently did a lot of magic books in addition to mysteries) which the Dallas Public Library has. EDIT: Now if we can just get a John MacDonald shout-out, I'll be content, but I suspect post-Golden Age American mystery fiction becomes a tenuous thing for Japanese consumption after Chandler or so.
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2010-09-13, 11:52 | Link #1296 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
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So who's the culprit then?
Also: Spoiler for ep4:
Do you trust Beato's non-red words by now, after 7 episodes, unlike Battler at that time? It's the matter that is directly connected with the point of her game, understanding her goals and her means. |
2010-09-13, 13:04 | Link #1297 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Japan took Britain's crown as the nation of mysteries some time ago, so it doesn't surprise me that they have those novels available. It is also why I began to study Japanese literature. Even with those novels available, it's still impressive how much Ryuukishi has read. I mean, I don't know many mystery writers who actually read that much about mysteries. Even in Japan, for people to catch those ALL those references is...Yeah. Ellery Queen and Van Dine were referenced a lot in episode 7, so I imagine those 2 are rather popular over there as well(as they should be!). |
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2010-09-13, 14:10 | Link #1298 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Jessica, Genji, Kumasawa, Nanjo. Pick one you like. I'm opening a line of inquiry, not proposing a grand unified theory. Don't give me that line about how Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers either, because it can also be translated as "They are not the murderers [for the 6th-8th twilights of EP1]."
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None of these things obliges me to swallow every word she says as truth. She is the witch, and her job is to mislead the detective, especially during a climactic logic battle. It's exactly because I trust her as a fair but skilled opponent that I want to understand her strategy in this scene. When Beato said before that the door and windows were locked from the inside, it wasn't completely clear if she was confirming that the door was last locked from the inside or not (as opposed to saying that windows were locked from the inside and the door was just locked). If that is what she meant, then the whole premise of Battler's theory should have been denied from the outset. But instead of repeating that and continuing the fight elsewhere, Beato chose to follow that line of reasoning. Even Lambda, who had no trouble mocking Battler's other theories and declaring some of them ineffective, chose to specifically address that one with new information. Why was this necessary? The information that the door was locked from the inside was already presented in a fantasy scene earlier. Shouldn't reinforcing that with red have just made the witch's illusion more solid? Or was this continuation followed because Battler was close to something important and his theory needed to be deflected, just like in the matter of the person count in EP3? There is absolutely no conflict with anything Beato or Lambda said if Rosa never came into possession of the missing master key until after the murders occurred. Furthermore, because she was already confirmed to be cooperating with the servants to deceive Battler about a faked second twilight earlier in the day, there's not even any need for her to be a knowing accomplice of the culprit.
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2010-09-13, 14:21 | Link #1299 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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This is interesting. Considering this, it is possible that Will's answer doesn't have a meaning by itself. What Will tried to do was to provide a proof that he solved the mysteries without telling the truth explicitly. The reason is that telling the truth hurts Beatrice (as we have seen in EP4 and EP5), so Will used the most merciful method (he didn't even use blue). That however was only possible through a certain "code" that he and Beatrice would understand. Will as an inquisitor must certainly know the mystery genre and its canons, Beatrice is also an expert, so probably Will took for granted that Beatrice read Ellery Queen. If my reasoning so far is correct, then what Will wanted to tell to Beatrice is: "You used the same trick Ellery Queen used in that book". Now I only need to understand how exactly that can work in umineko. The victims or one of the victims didn't die inside that room? I don't get it... Will can you tell us more about that closed room? Maybe the trick is not related to the bodies... how exactly was the closed room created?
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