2010-12-26, 19:53 | Link #7481 | |
*ignoring*
Join Date: Aug 2009
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2010-12-26, 19:57 | Link #7482 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Hinagiku and Nagi haven’t yet hit that string in Hayate heart or else we wouldn't have a gag manga to write about. From the viewers perspective we support different characters based on events that Hayate cannot see, This is where at a personal level we tend to believe more than we should. Hence this is my issue with nagi while being important I would still regulate her as a sister or family he cares about however it is not of the romantic type. Hinagiku still hasn't confessed and there is no evidence to suggest Hayate has realised that someone else likes him. I will come back and give you a cookie once Hinagiku has confessed, It is going to be like ichigo 100% if she just sits there and pray a wind will bring Hayate to her lol. P.S O no, I'm drag back into the storm again lol. |
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2010-12-26, 20:26 | Link #7483 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2010
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I really like Ayumu's character, but I don't think anyone ever considered her a serious contender to start with. She was very obviously introduced as a foil to Nagi, which makes it funnier (and cuter) that they're like best buds now. |
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2010-12-26, 20:40 | Link #7484 | ||
*ignoring*
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Categorized Nagi with Hina and Maria? Uhmm... he does think of them as "women" or, at least, Nagi is becoming more mature as a girl. If you know Hayate's personality, you should know that he's almost always avoid 'staring' and 'talking' about a girl's feminine traits. He's too innocent for that. Anyway, do you remember the first thing Hayate noticed about Athena when they re-encounter? No, no, that's not what Hina really thinks (nor what the viewers think, either way is fine). From the subtext, it's very clear that she's a hopeless girl about "love." WTF, subtext? Yes, subtext. It rules. |
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2010-12-26, 21:33 | Link #7485 | |||
*boot to the head*
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He's also blushed, rather significantly, when given views of some of the other harem members' more chest-oriented growth, including Maria, Nishizawa and Sakuya. And his reaction to finding Hinagiku and Izumi (two attractive young women by his own admission) in a compromising position was the source of much amusement for the fans. Quote:
It's not clear, in either text or subtext, exactly what he'd noticed, but given his non-perverted nature, I would venture to guess that he'd just noticed that her height had grown, which would need significant stretching to say that there was anything romantic about. Quote:
Yes, she is clueless about love, since this is the first time in years that she has allowed herself to feel this way. That doesn't change the facts that she clearly is in love with him romantically. Hayate doesn't seem to react to Athena's presence in a similar manner.
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2010-12-26, 22:08 | Link #7486 |
*ignoring*
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Spoiler for bastion:
He did noticed Hina and Nagi being unladylike and corrected their behaviors. He did thinks some of the girls have attractive faces. He did say that Athena is beautiful. (not really "stare" and "talk" about the skirts, their faces like a pervert) What of it? It's unimportant when you are talking about his feelings. He pretty much was honest with himself when he said he noticed her chests, because most boys normally will not say such things (they don't want to be punished), especially since he is innocent. He was honest with her. It looks like what you considered of her feelings, and what I considered from the subtext are different. Dam, subtext are useless. Spoiler for Subtext:
Last edited by zodanhko; 2010-12-26 at 22:20. |
2010-12-26, 22:46 | Link #7487 | ||
*boot to the head*
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When he thought Hinagiku was angry with him, he immediately asked Nagi if he could go apologize for whatever he'd done to anger her, this was before either of them made any attraction for the other known. When he angers Athena, he leaves her alone for some time before trying to reconcile and then finds he is unable to, and leaves her alone for ten years. Also, when he was staring at Hinagiku until it made her uncomfortable, it clearly wasn't her face he was staring at. Neither did he appear to be directing his stares at any of the other young women above their shoulders I'll talk about attractive women being ones that I'm interested in pursuing (a friendship with), and 'beautiful' women being ones that look nice on the outside, but not interesting. If I call someone beautiful, it's actually an insult XD Quote:
There's no real indication that he'd even noticed her chest, even after she told him to look. Erm, no, you didn't change anything about the subtext, which clearly stated that he was uncomfortable about something. Given what we know of Hayate, it was probably the fact that he was being seen in his sleepwear and not to do, as much, with the young women standing in his room. He's a little wary of things when it's Nagi essentially in a similar situation within canon.
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2010-12-26, 23:27 | Link #7488 | |||||
*ignoring*
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Yes, every he thinks Hina got angry at him, he wants he apologize even if it's her fault, and try not to anger her. That's pretty much it. O gosh, I might come to pity Hina if we keep comparing. He may just came up with an excuse after his mind wandered from thinking about Athena, and not stare look at Hina at all. Quote:
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Spoiler for Subtext:
The meaning of the subtext did change. Right now, he's uncomfortable or nervous about asking her to let him kiss because he doesn't know whether she'll accept it or not. "clearly stated that he was uncomfortable about something." You failed to know why he was nervous or uncomfortable? And must use the word 'something' to describe it. Yes, the vague meaning that you used for the subtext(without the text) didn't change, but the real meaning of the art changed. Although whether we know him or not is irrelevant in interpreting images, he and Athena kissed at least more than 100 times already. WTF, how did a wall of text appears??? I thought I wrote 4 sentences previously. Last edited by zodanhko; 2010-12-27 at 00:08. |
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2010-12-27, 02:50 | Link #7489 | |||||
*boot to the head*
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Yukiji had a strong desire to win against the debt her parents left her and her younger sister. Hinagiku still sees this as a sign of maturity, as shown by her choosing to call her 'Onee-chan' instead of some belittling term because of the elder sister's tenancy to drink herself into oblivion, which she sees as immature. Athena is shown as Hinagiku's equal in maturity when described by the student council (at that time, Hayate's only source of recent information about her). If he thought Hinagiku and Nagi weren't even ladylike, why would he be rebuking them for acting it? He is trying to make sure they act like they're appearing, their actions are providing a dissonance that he's trying to help them overcome. He's trying even harder in Nagi's case actually, since he sees it as his duty as her butler to do so. Quote:
When he was staring at Hinagiku at the beginning of the evening, I doubt Athena even entered his mind though. Quote:
He clearly will lie if it's the answer they want to hear, he's done it several times around Nagi. The fact that it isn't until after the clear indication of what answer Athena is expecting that he does answer that tells us it is a lie. He did get punished for the last lie (that we saw) him give to Athena, so he wants to make sure not to provoke her again. Quote:
We know a lot about Hayate especially because he's the main character of this manga and has appeared in most every situation in it's 300+ chapter run. Would Wataru's gamble of calling Hayate have been as amusing to us if it had happened at the beginning of the story instead of extra within the Golden Week arc? In contrast, we know very little about Athena's subtext and have to figure it out based on what we know of Hayate's reactions to her. Yes, as 'kids', Hayate has matured since then, and knows what a kiss truly means now. At least, 'kiss' as you're choosing to interpret it. Quote:
The text in the piece you provided doesn't fit what's drawn. That's why I enjoy pieces from other languages/cultures, the text may change, but body language is universal. Trying to change what it says just makes things look like a tangled mess, as that piece clearly shows.
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2010-12-27, 03:38 | Link #7490 | ||||||
*ignoring*
Join Date: Aug 2009
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What are you talking about? Quote:
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It's too bad I haven't seen anyone who agreed with you about the important of subtext. Quote:
Last edited by zodanhko; 2010-12-27 at 04:02. |
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2010-12-27, 04:07 | Link #7491 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
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That depends on if she becomes a regular or not. If she doesn't, then I'd expect a small flurry every time she shows up, but not a lot when she's offscreen. If she does become a regular, expect her to be consigned to the same "no movement" hell that Hina is spinning her wheels in.
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2010-12-27, 07:48 | Link #7492 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2010
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2010-12-27, 08:16 | Link #7493 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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Feels like a strange discussion ^_^;
If you try to examine the issue with a bit of neutral distance, it's easy to see that Hayate totally and utterly sucks at romance. With pretty much every girl, even with Athena (though she clearly came farthest). Hayate did not display any kind of authentic _romantic_ interest stemming from himself that I can remember, with the exception of his naive childhood time with Athena. Even during the end of the EOTW arc, his primary concerns were "I must rescue A-tan" and "I need to apologize to her", not "I want to be with her". And he was able to very readily accept their splitup afterwards, even though it clearly pained him. The "problem", if you can call it that, is that Hayate has no real concept of "self". He doesn't show interests, or needs. He doesn't really wonder what HE would want to do, what HE would like or hate. Instead, he purely submits to his responsibilities and tasks, and here, romance really plays no role. In addition to that, Hayate is extremely dense when it comes to recognizing romantic interest in other people. Add in the fact that he has a strong tendency to "obey" without having an opinion of his own, and you come up with someone totally unsuited for mutual romance. I'll try to briefly sum up how I believe Hayate sees the main girls. Feel free to give examples where you disagree. 1) Nagi: His Ojousama. His savior who he's sworn to protect and serve. Especially in the scene where she destroyed the jewel and forfeited her riches for HIS sake, and the manga side-commented that "Here, the boy saw his future", we can see that this is his prime directive, his absolute priority. He will serve her till she releases him by her own volition. At the same time, Hayate feels like a parent towards his child: He feels like guiding her out of her hikikomori shell, to become a normal person. He does not consider her romantic interest material at all, she's not even on his radar. I believe it would require alot of development to change that. 2) Maria: Nagi's surrogate mother. Perfect in everything she does. Along with that comes the feeling that Maria is more mature than he is, that she is "older" (to Maria's constant chagrin). In a few scenes where the two of them were physically close, Hayate reacts embarrassed and blushing, so a physical attraction does exist. However, Maria never tried to develop any initiative towards him, and he knows that Nagi reacted extremely jealous on any suspicion that he might have interest in Maria, so barring any huge upheavals, I don't foresee any developments here. 3) Hina: Someone he admires and feels indebted to, but who is out of his reach. Right after the tower scene, the issue whether or not Hina might like Hayate is openly breached (Nagi is worried that she does), and Maria determinedly states that "there's no way that someone as great and super-cute like Hina could fall for Hayate", and Hayate concurs in a subdued manner. He's depressed because he thinks that he constantly makes her mad, even though she's helping him all the time, so his feelings about her have a strong component of guilt. We know from various scenes that he considers her very charming and feminine, albeit a bit "unguarded", and he chides her for it (which is particularly humorous because Hina is every bit as shy as he is). Both of them tend to react very strongly to physical touch by the other, so a general attraction is obvious. However, he totally hasn't realized Hina's feelings, and he considers her unattainable anyway. In my opinion, this is the biggest obvious and predetermined breaking point remaining. It is hard to predict how Hayate will react once he realizes the truth, but it will have significant repercussions and will IMHO trigger the end run of the show, no matter where the dice may fall. 4) Ayumu: Warm, close and precious friend and great person. He knows how she feels, and he admits that he feels happy about it, but he doesn't actively react to it. He passively accepts her embrace and feelings, but he doesn't reciprocate. On one hand, it's due to obvious formal reasons: His current task forces him to fully concentrate on Nagi. Also, Hayate feels that he doesn't meet the (Athena-induced) requirements for having a girlfriend. He also doesn't react as extreme to physical touch as he does with other girls. I think that these two have come as close as they're going to get, but not further. Hayate likes her, but not "like that". No misconceptions or miscomunications remain. I don't expect many changes here. 5) Athena: A-tan. Childhood friend. Childhood lover. Expelled over a mistake Hayate feels he made, and which he desperately wanted to remedy again. The only character Hayate ever showed signs of personal affection to, out of self-born impulse. Especially towards her, Hayate displays a high degree of unquestioning obedience, and where Athena shows initiative and determination towards Hayate, he will quickly play ball. The only character Hayate declared to "love"/"have loved", though at the same time he never realized it over all the years and only came to this conclusion when he was prodded. So, their relationship is a peculiar one. Hayate's primary desire wasn't to be with her, but to SAVE her and APOLOGIZE to her. And when Athena reminded him that she couldn't be with him, since he had an overriding obligation to Nagi, he quickly accepted it, albeit with tears. I find it extremely hard to predict how this is going to develop now that Athena has reappeared. He's obviously still unquestioning and obedient, but how he sees her now remains unclear. We'll have to see if Hayate ever develops personal initiative to get back with Athena, or how he deals with the current unclear status. At the moment we only see that he's still willing to unquestioningly follow her lead. |
2010-12-27, 09:03 | Link #7494 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
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I'll actually agree with you broadly, mostly to the extent that there are only three girls at this stage with unexplored romantic potential remaining--Nagi, Hina, and Athena.
With Nagi, there is the fundamental misunderstanding that goes back to the first chapter, and there's still a lot of ambiguity as to what exactly 252-253 meant to either of them. Did Nagi tell Hayate "words only cause misunderstandings" because she had figured it out? We don't know, but she hasn't been seen fantasizing about him like she used to and she's been much more open with him since then. With Hayate's "Here, the boy saw his future" explanation and all his talk about "not being able to move forward" and "I promise I'll come back to you" did he finally get Nagi's feelings? Well, he's unbelievably dense, so probably not, but again he's been acting a bit differently and it's not really explained anywhere. I would say at a minimum he now has an idea how much Nagi values him and that only strengthens his devotion to her. I would say they've made progress, (If nothing else, the whole "Silly misunderstanding" thing doesn't seem to happen anymore.) but it's still got a long, long, way to go. Hina, as you've said, he doesn't remotely understand her feelings and we don't know exactly how he'll react if she ever tells him. I have a hard time seeing that development as "endgame" myself, but Hata only knows it sure feels like she's never going to make any progress before then. With Athena, we just don't know how he's going to react to her yet, despite 264-265 giving us a sense of closure between them. Could go in a number of directions, but Hayate being Hayate I wouldn't be surprised to see him just assuming the romance is over for good and acting as an intensely loyal childhood friend to the point that Athena considers throwing a brick at him. We should find out soon enough. |
2010-12-27, 09:47 | Link #7495 | |||
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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I'm very sure that if/when the bubble bursts, and Hayate realizes Hina's feelings, it will be at the climax of a crisis. And I'm 99% sure it will be in a way that she will run or maybe even actively call it quits from her side, and Hayate will immediately thereafter learn what she has been doing for him in the past, without him realizing. What this is going to lead to - either just a guilt trip of gigantic proportions or a reevalutation of his feelings in this new light - remains to be seen. But after already 200 chapters of "dancing around the issue", something big is going to happen when lightning finally strikes. I'm sure of that. As a side remark: It seems that some spoilers for chapter 302 say... Spoiler:
This issue is definitely going to matter. And once it breaks into the open, things are going to be very interesting Quote:
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2010-12-27, 11:28 | Link #7496 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
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The issue is why it matters. To be honest, I really think the reason he hasn't done anything with Hayate and Hina's relationship is because Hina is hugely popular with the fanbase and he knows there would be trouble if Hayate had to turn her down. Which, judging by the Athena arc, would almost be a given. (And that's even assuming Hayate has clear feelings for her that he's willing to personally acknowledge.) Nagi is number one to him and I fully expect the end of the series to maintain status quo.
To be honest, as much as I love Hayate/Athena, I have no trouble with their relationship transforming into something else with a lingering affectionate tinge. Their backstory is detailed enough that I think they would make excellent friends on a level unmatched by anyone else Hayate interacts with. Their bond will always be unique and precious to one another even if it's not romantic. Spoiler:
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2010-12-27, 11:43 | Link #7497 | |||
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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I do not however foresee any ending which would "maintain the status quo". That would be no ending at all, as in "no closure". Quote:
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I mean, what's a little bit of blackmail of someone who saved your life? And whose help you seem to require in the future? Who cares, it's about ME. Yep, that's our A-tan... |
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2010-12-27, 11:53 | Link #7498 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Of course I do. I don't love A-tan because she's a delicate flower of humility and sacrifice, I love her because she's strong willed and does what it takes to meet her goals. I like her because she's entertaining to watch and I adore her personality as a whole. So seeing her put a plan in action and carry it out perfectly is great. The biggest crime a character can commit, to me, is to be boring. I find Athena to be the most interesting character in the series, thus she's my favorite. Spoiler:
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2010-12-27, 13:15 | Link #7499 | |||
*boot to the head*
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The translators of the Bible are trapped by the subtext. You cannot change the meaning of the text. There are many ways to translate things into other languages, given the evolution of language and such, but if you do it incorrectly, it's clear that there's something discordant about it. I saw a 'modern' translation of the Christmas story video this past weekend, it was significantly different, and made to be humorist, but it still told the same tale. I've seen a lot of examples of this. Quote:
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Though Silver Red's continued existence may be of importance later, I don't think it'll play a role like you're expecting, as several more have come about since that center around Red, including the color of the uniform being a rather selective meaning to Hina-tan, plus her own red (flavored) hair. I saw someone mention how Hayate would never give up his devotion to Nagi as her butler and thus wouldn't be able to pursue anyone else as a romantic prospect, until released, which we were told would take fourty years before Hayate would be able to pay her back (and that was back when Nagi had all the Sanzenin money to back her up, we haven't been told if that's changed since), which the other young women would never respect, since that would require giving up the dream of having a family with him. I personally solved this issue in my fanfic by forcing him to request from Nagi the right to date another girl while still working for her, allowing him to take romantic interest, while still holding true to his promise to protect her. This also allowed her to show him that she was maturing, as he was trying to get her to do. She's going to be holding onto romantic hopes for the whole storyline because of it (while the other girls of the harem move on), and even lets the other young woman play a significant role in Nagi's growing maturity, while Hayate fills both the roll of continuing to teach her to be mature, and giving her the romantic pushes she's wanting from him, continue to protect her, and pursue someone else romantically at the same time. She's also the one who got to throw the 'spike-lined brick' at his head to make him realize the romances around him, so I'm not doing away with the humor while running to the end-game.
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2010-12-27, 13:54 | Link #7500 | |
*ignoring*
Join Date: Aug 2009
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The "Christmas story" you watched seem to change the texts to create more humor and still works. That's no different from what I was saying. Of course, they have to make the video having same theme. |
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comedy, shounen |
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