Madoka Magica - Episode 06 Discussion / Poll

[garbage]

wow great episode all i can say, about QB being evil is inconclusive at the moment for me, but he is definitely not looking good and has very questionable way of doing things. For me withholding key information is not good at all especially since it literally a matter of life and death contract.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

But during Kyubey's spiel where he talked about how humans react to this aspect of the magical girl profession, do you know who he made me think a lot of?

He made me think of this guy:



.

i don't know if you have watched the whole TV episodes or even most of them or even read the books. I have, I'm a trekkie and they are definitely not the same.
QB withheld information. knowing full well that those information will have a great impact on the person's decision
SPOCK is super logical but it is shown again and again that he is a believer of justice and "humane" (whatever you might call it) he will not withhold vital information. in fact the reverse would happen he would probably bore you to death with so many details. because he is also a believer in sharing information.
his ultimate course of action would be to FIND ANOTHER WAY with his friend capt. kirk and the rest of the crew, that would be beneficial without resorting to such tactics. that is one of the MAIN THEMES of Star Trek. " to go where no man has gone before" and the never say die attitude of kirk, spock and the rest

[Guardian Enzo]

"It (being a Vulcan) means to adopt a philosophy, a way of life which is logical and beneficial. We cannot disregard that philosophy merely for personal gain, no matter how important that gain might be.";

Mr. Spock, "Journey to Babel", Stardate 3842.4, Episode 44

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by Makender

I'd say it would be evil if QB's purchase of said insurance unduly harms a MG without adequate compensation. A granting of one wish, magical power, and nigh immortality is certainly due compensation. I shan't lose this argument!

To keep in context, it is necessary to keep in mind that we are talking about the basic needs for survival vs the desire for multiple insurance.

If carving out a still beating human heart was easy, it would be rational to get hundreds or thousands of such "insurance" policies correct? Especially if each earns you income in a form you desire.

Let us factor in compensation. In return for your still beating heart, i send a lackey to wait around until you're seriously injured (or maybe engineer the injury), i then tell you that i can call the paramedics and keep you alive with an artificial heart http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_heart but only if you give me your real heart. In addition i give you a hundred million US dollars.

However i'm not going to tell you that there's a risk of infection and other complications and you dying because i don't care if you die and you might get turned off the idea.

So are my actions evil?

[creb]

Walpurgis Night looks to be a big witch invasion then? Kyoko knew what Homura was talking about it seemed, so is it safe to assume she's experienced one previously (Kyoko)? I wonder if this particular Walpurgis Night is what the first episode was alluding to, which would possibly make Homura's declaration of basically not caring what happens after it to make sense.

People will defend Kyuube because this is the internet and there's never a shortage of people who will take the contrarian view. That's fine. It's the internet after all. You'll find moderately reasonable people in the real world turn into raving defenders of anything your imagination can spew up on the internet. I only hope, for their sake, they're not that naive in real life.

Homura shows more and more hints at coming from an alternate future timeline or something similar. Kyuube seems to have possibly figured out something important about Homura based on his comment about her. I'm sure, if he has, he'll use it to his advantage. I think most of us know that Homura can't possibly keep saving the day. This is Urobuchi Gen after all. Her eventual fall will be painful, I'm sure. She's definitely my favorite character, and I'm sure I'll be crying (internally of course ;p ) when she eventually meets her doom.

Btw, Homura spelled out she's willing to whatever it takes to keep Madoka from contracting. I suspect that even means killing, if necessary. I'm a tad bummed we didn't get to see her in "serious mode", as she put it, against Kyoko.

As for why she doesn't just explain everything? Who knows. It'd make for a bland story though, so if that's reason enough, keep staying mysterious Homura! I think it's important some of you realize this is, after all, a story. Not real life. Get a grip. ;p It's very difficult to make an interesting story that makes 100% sense.

I have to say, it's refreshing having a character like Kyuube. It's rare to get someone as manipulative as he is in anime. Usually you get someone like Light from Death Note, or Lelouch from Code Geass, who's ideas of manipulative fit a six year old's. Kyuube puts those children all to shame. Even if he's an evil little bag of...well, evil, I have to say I find him oddly lovable for it. Who doesn't like the evil baddie in fictional stories after all? ;p Even if, at the same time, one wishes awful things to befall it. There seems to be a real disconnect, however, in the audience in regards to Kyuube's motives. I've certainly seen zero evidence that he cares one lick at all about saving humanity from witches. To each their own, I suppose.

Btw, one has to wonder what his mouth on his back actually opens up to. Obviously, he can't possibly have every grief gem he's eaten stored in his stomach after-all. So, where does that little evil gaping portal go to?

Right now, the big question is why he's so itching to get Madoka turned into a magical girl. I suppose he could be bugging plenty of other girls off-camera, but I'm pretty sure everything he's doing is focused on this one goal for some reason. Sayaka is just a means to an end there.

Madoka continues to annoy, especially since she apparently has yet to tell Sayaka that Mami..you know...chained up Homura before arrogantly fighting that witch alone (hey, I liked Mami, but let's not call a goat anything other than it is ok), despite Homura's warnings. So, as angry as I am at Sayaka for being a hot-headed fool who blames Homura for Mami's death, I'm even angrier at Madoka for allowing this pretty important point to remain unclarified. For someone desperate to get Homura and Sayaka on the same page, she's not helping matters by not clearing this huge issue up.

Madoka's mother, on the other hand, is possibly the best mother in anime history. If I ever had children, I could only hope to be as straightforward with mine as she is with Madoka.

I don't know where we're going from here. Kyoko has food for thought. Her confidence in the system she had all figured out, especially in her amusement at Sayako's naivety, has been shaken. What will she do about it now that it's apparent she's been naive to some things as well. She has to be asking herself, if she didn't know about this rather important aspect of the job, what else doesn't she know? And, if Kyoko wasn't completely stupefied by shock, I'm sure she's going to start seriously wondering just who is Homura, and how does she know so much. Unlike Sayako, Kyoko seems to be moderately intelligent and fully capable of "befriending the enemy" so to speak. ie: It seems likely Kyoko will make some attempts at not actually fighting Homura, despite her almost doing so this episode, at least not until she gets some answers.

Sayako is just a naive idiot, who's continual survival leaves me wondering if she might not be death material after-all. At least not for the immediate future. Certainly, the real flag for her impending death, will be some sort of conflict surrounding her wish, which we haven't seen yet. Between Mami, and now Kyoko, saying wishes for other people turn out horribly wrong, it seems a sure bet we're going to have to witness exactly how bad they can turn out before Sayako can become fish food (for real, since apparently all magical girls already are fish food). ;p Btw, does Kyoko's comment about Mami must have warned Sayaka hint that Kyoko knew Mami personally?

Ah, the eternally optimistic who didn't know Gen was behind the script in this show. Those of you still around that is. ;p Your hearts must be all aflutter with news that the body is just a husk and that the soul gem is all that matters. Are you going to bed dreaming that Mami will come back to life? Heh. I don't really know how to take this info in regards to Mami. As far as I know, we saw no direct evidence that her soul gem was destroyed. But, this being Gen, if Mami returns at some point, I sincerely doubt it is as her previously charming magical girl self.

Which continues to touch on the biggest question unanswered. What happens when a magical girl's gem fades? I'm sure we'll find out before this all ends.

In the last few years, decent anime has been hard to find. Just when you start loosing all hope in an industry that pumps out harem and panty shows galore, you get something like this that reminds me why I started watching anime in the first place. Here's hoping for another great episode next week.

[technomo12]

Fu** it i soo effing hate you even more now kyubey!! Damn you argh!! Episode 6 was an effing wakeup call

[Makender]

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

To keep in context, it is necessary to keep in mind that we are talking about the basic needs for survival vs the desire for multiple insurance.

If carving out a still beating human heart was easy, it would be rational to get hundreds or thousands of such "insurance" policies correct? Especially if each earns you income in a form you desire.

Let us factor in compensation. In return for your still beating heart, i send a lackey to wait around until you're seriously injured (or maybe engineer the injury), i then tell you that i can call the paramedics and keep you alive with an artificial heart http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_heart but only if you give me your real heart. In addition i give you a hundred million US dollars.

However i'm not going to tell you that there's a risk of infection and other complications and you dying because i don't care if you die and you might get turned off the idea.

So are my actions evil?

No it is not rational to overinsure from an efficiency standpoint. At some point the costs are greater than the benefits so you only reach the point where they fully insure at cost=benefit.

And I posit that it is the negligence of the MG for not inquiring into all of the necessary, important facets of the deal. Omission doesn't constitute evilness in my book. Outright malicious intent to harm is evil. QB omits to benefit himself to insure survival and his way of life.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Your point about Kyube being Spock really hit home. I suppose that's why I don't see him as evil, because I myself am a very coldly logical person, not as swayed by emotion as some might be. So I find his pragmatic attitude to be entirely believable and justifiable.

I'm glad that you see the Spock analogy as well.

Anyway, just speculation. Primarily, she does come across as dumb, though. I mean, if she really cared about stopping Madoka from being an MG, there were already things she could have done prior to this (such as vow to work with Sayaka to protect the town). Her actions and her stated goal aren't matching up well.

One thing with Homura is that she's only using fear and good timing to stop Madoka from becoming a magical girl (and even then, she never played all of her top 'fear' cards). I mean, why not comfort Madoka and say "Don't worry about Sayaka, I'll look after her. You don't need to concern yourself with Sayaka, and this city certainly doesn't need yet another magical girl, so you just continue being a normal girl"? To a certain extent, Homura's words to Madoka have actually backfired, I think. They've made Madoka even more concerned for Sayaka's welfare than what might otherwise be the case, which makes it more likely for Madoka to choose to be a magical girl in an act of desperation.

So if Homura's chief, main goal is simply to stop Madoka from becoming a magical girl, her approach is quite questionable.

Not saying she isn't a very cool character (stylistically, in combat, great timing, etc...), just that there is a disconnect between her stated goals and her actions, yes.

Originally Posted by garbage

i don't know if you have watched the whole TV episodes or even most of them or even read the books.

I've watched all the TOS episodes (some many times), but I haven't read the books.

I have, I'm a trekkie and they are definitely not the same.

They're not identical, but there is considerable similarities there.

QB withheld information. knowing full well that those information will have a great impact on the person's decision
SPOCK is super logical but it is shown again and again that he is a believer of justice and "humane" (whatever you might call it) he will not withhold vital information.

From a cold, logical perspective, is this vital information? When it comes to choosing to be a magical girl? Does it make a moral difference if one's soul is in their body or in a small jewel that one owns?

Creepy is not the same as evil. Loads of people (in his own universe) find Batman creepy, it doesn't make him evil.

I definitely know that there have been times when Spock has been very circumspect about the information that he chose to share with others. He just doesn't always put it all out there for everybody to hear. Sure, he trusts Kirk, but there's information he might keep from the rest of the crew from time-to-time.

his ultimate course of action would be to FIND ANOTHER WAY with his friend capt. kirk and the rest of the crew, that would be beneficial without resorting to such tactics.

Tactics such as blowing up a dangerous Klingon Bird of Prey or Romulan Warbird, hence killing its entire crew?

Come now, let's not act like Spock is Superman, and is totally unwilling to get his hands dirty at all.

" to go where no man has gone before" and the never say die attitude of kirk, spock and the rest

Agreed. I love that about it myself. It doesn't really relate to what we're talking about though.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

"It (being a Vulcan) means to adopt a philosophy, a way of life which is logical and beneficial. We cannot disregard that philosophy merely for personal gain, no matter how important that gain might be.";

Mr. Spock, "Journey to Babel", Stardate 3842.4, Episode 44

Good quote.

And your point?

[garbage]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

But it is interesting that Homura knew this, too, and didn't say anything. So if Kyube is evil and bad for withholding information, then so is Homura. Personally, I don't think either of them evil, but time could change my opinion.
.

i don't think you can compare the two like that just on the basis of WITHHOLDING INFORMATION. the point is WHY?. QB did because it will lessen the chance of girls signing up. why homura did so is not yet clear

"Sign up for World War II, kids! You'll risk death, losing limbs, and come back with mental issues, but you'll be helping to save the free world from a dire threat!"
...

"Hmm, why is no one signing up? Maybe we need a different campaign, and should probably gloss over the bad stuff, or else we'll lose the war..."

i can take issue on this with you. because for one MANY did sign-up and volunteered during WWII. in fact my ancestors ( mmm great grands are ancestors right? eheh) did KNOWING full well what they're getting into. you're borderline insulting the WWII veterans.
you can't compare QB contract signing with war effort because those people in the real world mostly know what war is all about and what would happen should a bullet ever cross your head or any vital organ for that matter. those that don't, would be so stupid or disabled to be practical on the battlefield and the recruiters themselves would not accept them. they will turn into a liability.

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by Makender

No it is not rational to overinsure from an efficiency standpoint. At some point the costs are greater than the benefits so you only reach the point where they fully insure at cost=benefit.

And I posit that it is the negligence of the MG for not inquiring into all of the necessary, important facets of the deal. Omission doesn't constitute evilness in my book. Outright malicious intent to harm is evil. QB omits to benefit himself to insure survival and his way of life.

Ah good, now we have your stand point though he does have the "Outright malicious intent to harm" indirectly does he not .

So here are some examples that fufil that stand point of omission to benefit themselves and insure their way of life (eg require a lavish lifestyle). Please tell me if they are evil or not.

i) Your girlfriend/boyfriend tells you that she/he needs one of your kidneys or they will die and its true. While you're under anesthesia, they take both your kidneys and she/he disappears leaving a note saying that it was a last minute decision to take your other kidney in case the first transplant failed as she/he was going to continue their hard drinking. Now she/he can drink twice as long before problems occur and she/he thanks you. Now you're on dialysis for the rest of your life or until a kind person donates to you.

ii) You see your retired father and mother lying on the floor bleeding from shotgun wounds a burgler inflicted. You consider that if they died, you would get the house and their savings now and it would not be reduced because of their continued spending on food and paying the bills. You decided to leave them to bleed to death since you did not cause the wound in the first place.

iii) Your 3 year old child is walking towards the stairs and there are marbles scattered over the floor. You think of the insurance policy that you bought for him and the payout is still the same if he dies now or later but if he dies later you have to pay the premium longer. You decide to let him tumble down the stairs since the marbles were not put there by you anyway, you're not responsible.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

One thing with Homura is that she's only using fear and good timing to stop Madoka from becoming a magical girl (and even then, she never played all of her top 'fear' cards). I mean, why not comfort Madoka and say "Don't worry about Sayaka, I'll look after her. You don't need to concern yourself with a Sayaka, and this city certainly doesn't need yet another magical girl, so you just continue being a normal girl"? To a certain extent, Homura's words to Madoka have actually backfired, I think. They've made Madoka even more concerned for Sayaka's welfare than what might otherwise be the case, which makes it more likely for Madoka to choose to be a magical girl in an act of desperation.

So if Homura's chief, main goal is simply to stop Madoka from becoming a magical girl, her approach is quite questionable.

Not saying she isn't a very cool character (stylistically, in combat, great timing, etc...), just that there is a disconnect between her stated goals and her actions, yes.

Her friend is seen as an obstacle. She even stated this episode that she was going to take care of her herself. She doesn't want to help her because Sayaka so far is just getting Madoka more involved. Homura helping Sayaka just prolongs Madoka's involvement in the issue, which is exactly what she does not want.

Homura telling Madoka everything there is to know about the mahou shoujo world is also just getting her more involved.

Honestly, if it weren't for Sayaka's decision, Madoka wouldn't be pushed so hard to make this decision right now. Homura is trying to reduce the damage as much as she can. As far as she sees it, Sayaka is an inevitable death, much like Mami. Her life is just going to increase the likelihood that Madoka gets involved. She also shouldn't have to be the one who has to look out for someone who is as naive as Sayaka. That's not her job.

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

From a cold, logical perspective, is this vital information? When it comes to choosing to be a magical girl? Does it make a moral difference if one's soul is in their body or in a small jewel that one owns?

Yes because logic dictates that the person offered the contract (aka contractee) may place a different level of importance to a certain contractual point than the one offering the contract (aka contractor). Thus each information must be explained to the contractee as the contractor will not know the contractee well enough to make a decision for him or her

Hence if your goal is to allow a contract acceptable to both sides, all information must be given out.

If you goal is to make the contract acceptable only to the contractor, then information that would prevent the contractee from signing must be hidden.

Shortform: Why do you think you can make decisions for others you barely know in matters of critical lifelong importance.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Her friend is seen as an obstacle. She even stated this episode that she was going to take care of her herself. She doesn't want to help her because Sayaka so far is just getting Madoka more involved. Homura helping Sayaka just prolongs Madoka's involvement in the issue, which is exactly what she does not want.

Homura telling Madoka everything there is to know about the mahou shoujo world is also just getting her more involved.

Honestly, if it weren't for Sayaka's decision, Madoka wouldn't be pushed so hard to make this decision right now. Homura is trying to reduce the damage as much as she can. As far as she sees it, Sayaka is an inevitable death, much like Mami.

So you're saying that Homura really did intend for Sayaka to die?

Then why the heck did she go to such great lengths to save Sayaka at the end of this episode?

I mean, after that stretch of impressive heroics, I just assumed that Homura was frankly BSing Kyoko and had no intention of killing Sayaka at all.


And while telling Madoka all that there is to know about the magical girl world is now only getting her more involved (since her friend Sayaka is in that world), if she had told Madoka and Sayaka this back in Episode 1 or 2 or 3, it might have freaked them out enough that they wouldn't even consider becoming magical girls.

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

Snip to save space

Shortform: Why do you think you can make decisions for others you barely know in matters of critical lifelong importance.

There's a very famous quote of Spock's that I think applies here:

Spock: "Logic dictates that he needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few..."

Kirk: "... Or the one" - Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan


If what Kyubey is doing serves to protect the lives of many, at the disadvantage of the relatively few lives of the magical girls, then what would Spock make of it based on these lines?

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Good quote.

And your point?

As Creb said, this is the internet and people will defend any point they wish to defend - and I'll defend their right to defend it. By all means, defend Kyuube. But the Spock thing is really a dead-end - you're just embarrassing yourselves with that one. I'm not a Trekker (globally more of a Doctor Who fan, locally I prefer TNG to The Original Series) but I love science fiction and I think Spock was by far the most interesting thing to come out of that show, so I know the character pretty well. And there are countless examples from multiple TV series - not to mention the movies - that show that he not only would never stoop to Kyuube's tactics no matter how worthy the goal, but that he would be repulsed by them. Not only was the truth Spock's religion, but moral relativism was anathema to him. To link his professed love of logic to an "end justifies the means" argument is a complete reversal of his actual world view - just because he was logical it doesn't mean he didn't believe in right and wrong. And he viewed all situations through that lens - there was a right way and a wrong way to conduct himself at any given moment. That doesn't mean he didn't believe some sacrifices were necessary (more in a minute) but he would never willfully use innocents and throw away their lives in pursuit of some so-called "greater good" because that would contradict the logic of his very existence.

Before anyone pukes up the "Needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few - or the one" thing, that was again an illustration not of the end justifying the means, but of a logical act in Spock's world view - sacrificing himself for the good of others. Indeed, the theme of self-sacrifice is a common one for Spock - not just in "Wrath of Khan" but also when he embarked on a probably hopeless and possibly fatal mission to Romulus to try and reunify his people and the Romulans in order to achieve peace. And even his behavior in the latest Trek film (which, though wildly entertaining, is far enough in opposition to the spirit of it's predecessors that I don't really consider it canon) involves his self-sacrifice in order to give hope for the future.

The whole argument for Kyuube, for those who choose to make it, rests on the notion that the end justifies the means. Now let's set aside the fact that at this point we have absolutely no proof whatsoever that Kyuube's ends are anything more than self-serving - only his own word, and he's already proven himself untrustworthy at best and an outright liar at worst. If you want to make the argument for Consequentialism, you certainly can - but that's a slippery slope. It's both literally and figuratively a Machiavellian idea, with all that's implied. Consider some of the historical acts that were justified by this argument - the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and both sides of the current "global war on terror" - torture and suicide bombings targeting civilians - and that's just for starters. If that's the path you choose to defend you better be ready to defend it all the way to it's logical conclusion - because it can (and the guy - Machiavelli's Prince - who invented it, did so) be used to justify any action, no matter how heinous.

[Makender]

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

Ah good, now we have your stand point though he does have the "Outright malicious intent to harm" indirectly does he not .

So here are some examples that fufil that stand point of omission to benefit themselves and insure their way of life (eg require a lavish lifestyle). Please tell me if they are evil or not.

i) Your girlfriend/boyfriend tells you that she/he needs one of your kidneys or they will die and its true. While you're under anesthesia, they take both your kidneys and she/he disappears leaving a note saying that it was a last minute decision to take your other kidney in case the first transplant failed as she/he was going to continue their hard drinking. Now she/he can drink twice as long before problems occur and she/he thanks you. Now you're on dialysis for the rest of your life or until a kind person donates to you.

ii) You see your retired father and mother lying on the floor bleeding from shotgun wounds a burgler inflicted. You consider that if they died, you would get the house and their savings now and it would not be reduced because of their continued spending on food and paying the bills. You decided to leave them to bleed to death since you did not cause the wound in the first place.

iii) Your 3 year old child is walking towards the stairs and there are marbles scattered over the floor. You think of the insurance policy that you bought for him and the payout is still the same if he dies now or later but if he dies later you have to pay the premium longer. You decide to let him tumble down the stairs since the marbles were not put there by you anyway, you're not responsible.

i) Evil in the sense that they harmed you unduly. In no way were you compensated for TWO kidneys. This isn't even a contract to begin with; it is a gift. This would be a form of overinsurance anyways. A rational person would learn their lesson and not squander the kidneys as it places greater costs upon themselves than the benefit.

ii) Evil for same logic as above. You take without due compensation.

iii) You'd never make this decision in the first place as any rational, forward-thinking person would see they had kids in order to benefit themselves in the long term. Ie the kid will theoretically take care of you in your old age. That benefit outweighs the cost of supporting him in the long run.

All of these are really rather moot anyways. All of the above hypotheticals are not required for survival. I'm arguing here that QB isn't gathering as many MGs in order to live lavishly. He does so because the high probability of destabilization of his life if he didn't do so would threaten his existence. Honestly, I would also allow him a little bit of leeway even for an adequate standard of living. You can survive on poverty wages, but does anyone want to do so? Should they be forced to do so? Seems to me like you're saying he just needs to take what he needs in order to not be evil in this instance when it is not so. He should be allowed comfort as well.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So you're saying that Homura really did intend for Sayaka to die?

Then why the heck did she go to such great lengths to save Sayaka at the end of this episode?

I mean, after that stretch of impressive heroics, I just assumed that Homura was frankly BSing Kyoko and had no intention of killing Sayaka at all.

And while telling Madoka all that there is to know about the magical girl world is now only getting her more involved (since her friend Sayaka is in that world), if she had told Madoka and Sayaka this back in Episode 1 or 2 or 3, it might have freaked them out enough that they wouldn't even consider becoming magical girls.

She saved Sayaka at the end probably cause of either one of these two reasons

1. She didn't want Madoka to have an excuse to become a Mahou Shoujo. In this case it would be the guilt of having killed her friend.
2. She has some sort of connection to Madoka. Perhaps they were friends and her love for her as a friend is her sole motivation to see her not get more hurt than she needs to be. If she actually killed her friend just like that. Then that would go against this.

Remember, Homura said she wanted to take care of Sayaka discreetly.

As for the rest of what you said... She hasn't told Madoka all that much since episode 1 except to just not get involved. Remember Homura tried to kill Kyube, if she succeeded, then Madoka would never have even made contact with the magical world. Homura has not told Madoka ANYTHING about the magical girl world that she already didn't know.

In the end, Mami's death was useful to her goal. But she didn't want it to come to that by any means.

[Archon_Wing]

Anyhow, since my friend and I were kinda Trek fans, I was discussing this with him and he came up with the perfect comparison with QB; sadly for those that don't care/know about trek are gonna be left in the dark again, so I may as well as hide it in spoiler tags.

Spoiler for Star Trek and Deep Space Nine:

Isn't QB more like the section 31 guys? They even had a quote: "someone has to protect men like you from a universe that doesn't share your sense of right and wrong." <<-- Quote STRONGLY relates to Madoka as a series, but you can substitute men for girls, etc.

Much like QB, they were recruiting and using talented people in order to protect others. They also used the same sleazy guilt tripping tactics to recruit and acting in a very Machiavellian manner-- using tactics the protagonists wouldn't consider.

QB also has more in common with your average Trek villain of the week who tries to accomplish something good and practical but having no sense of morality.

So I can't agree that QB has in common with Spock; in fact QB almost stands for everything Trek is against... Vulcans weren't bound by pure logic-- that's just the result of flanderization as the series went along.

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by Makender

i) Evil in the sense that they harmed you unduly. In no way were you compensated for TWO kidneys. This isn't even a contract to begin with; it is a gift.

ii) Evil for same logic as above. You take without due compensation.

Eh, the points here are not about contracts. This is your stand point distilled into a more easily discerned state. Your standpoint was thus "And I posit that it is the negligence of the MG for not inquiring into all of the necessary, important facets of the deal. Omission doesn't constitute evilness in my book. Outright malicious intent to harm is evil. QB omits to benefit himself to insure survival and his way of life."

In i) you were negligent for not inquiring on the possibility they would take your second kidney.

In ii) you're taking no action other than the basic (taking a look at the situation), corresponding to not explaining or stating relevant points other than the basic (you get a wish, you fight witches)

Originally Posted by Makender

iii) You'd never make this decision in the first place as any rational, forward-thinking person would see they had kids in order to benefit themselves in the long term. Ie the kid will theoretically take care of you in your old age. That benefit outweighs the cost of supporting him in the long run.

Actually it doesn't. The amount of money spent to raise and educate the child if taken and placed in high interest rate facilities or bonds would give you a certainty that the amount of money would be there. A child could abandon you, place you on a low pirority after wife/kids/etc, die on you, etc.

Hence the logical decision if you wanted a comfortable (in terms of cash) old age, would be to reduce the premium payment to minimum and profit from insurance payouts.

Originally Posted by Makender

All of these are really rather moot anyways. I'm arguing here that QB isn't gathering as many MGs in order to live lavishly. He does so because the high probability of destabilization of his life if he didn't do so would threaten his existence. Honestly, I would also allow him a little bit of leeway even for an adequate standard of living. You can survive on poverty wages, but does anyone want to do so? Should they be forced to do so? Seems to me like you're saying he just needs to take what he needs in order to not be evil in this instance when it is not so. He should be allowed comfort as well.

Well even if its truly for survival, do we know how long he will last without grief seeds? We know a human can go 30+ days without food, do we know similarly for Kyubei?

As for comfort, even when it is based on the suffering of others? Take for example, there is a Gongxiao village in china that kidnaps children, maims them and forces them to be beggers. Surely they cannot be held accountable as the villagers should be allowed comfort? The kids after all are generously given food and shelter as compensation. removal of the kids would lead to a high probability of destabilization of the villagers' lives as well

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

So, do you believe Homura is evil then? Is she a liar as well?

Kaijo,I'm surprised you can't see the difference

There's a BIG difference between saying "Make a contract with me" and once it's done "oh by the way,I just took your soul and put it out of your bodies" and homura saying "DON'T make that contract,it'll mean the end of you" even if she doesn't tell you why.


Though about this system,can your soul gem allow you to switch bodies?If so I find it interesting that prople think nobody would take the deal when in the the anime Kaiba this is pretty much what's going on and I remember people saying "hey,wouldn't it be great if we could do that?"

As for why didn't Homura tell anyone I can see something like thishappening in the near future:

Kyoko: this is horrible,we must tell other MGs or anyone QB contacts about this
QB: silly,I wouldn't do that if I were you.
Kyoko:Why?
QB:Well,I didn't find it very practical to have people going around and dissuading girls from making the contract so I had to take measure
Kyoko:what did you do?
QB:there's a non disclosure agreement in your contract,say this to anyone and you break your contract and your wish will get undone.

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

If what Kyubey is doing serves to protect the lives of many, at the disadvantage of the relatively few lives of the magical girls, then what would Spock make of it based on these lines?

Well then i assume Spock killed off many red shirts? in pursuit of the goal? Sure he did not kill off only himself right? Because if he did then it would be a decision made by himself for a matter critical to himself.

If he only killed himself, then i am puzzled what that would have to do with "Why do you think you can make decisions for others you barely know in matters of critical lifelong importance."

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

And there are countless examples from multiple TV series - not to mention the movies - that show that he not only would never stoop to Kyuube's tactics no matter how worthy the goal, but that he would be repulsed by them.

The key moral dilemma in Kyubey's tactics is about keeping important secrets from people that serve to be directly impacted by them, correct?

Well, the Federation served to be directly (and possibly negatively) impacted by Spock's hopeless and possibly fatal mission to Romulus to try and reunify his people and the Romulans. So, did Spock choose to inform the Federation of his plans?

The answer, of course, is no, he didn't. And that ultimately placed Jean-Luc Picard and Data in grave jeopardy, and may have cost them their lives.

In any event, I'm not saying that Spock would morally approve of Kyubey's actions, just that he would likely have to concede that there's logic to it.

If you prefer, we can make a comparison between Kyubey and a generic Vulcan, not Spock. I thought of Spock because he tends to be the first Vulcan you think of when you think of Vulcans.

Edit: I'm also fine with the Section 31 comparison that Archon_Wing brought up. I never really thought of those guys as just outright evil, to be honest with you. I definitely could see why they were doing what they were doing.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

She saved Sayaka at the end probably cause of either one of these two reasons
[LIST=1][*]She didn't want Madoka to have an excuse to become a Mahou Shoujo. In this case it would be the guilt of having killed her friend.

Madoka would feel guilt simply from Sayaka dying, period, at this juncture.

Remember, Homura said she wanted to take care of Sayaka discreetly.

Discreetly or not, Madoka would likely suspect that Sayaka's demise was tied to her being a magical girl.

As for the rest of what you said... She hasn't told Madoka all that much since episode 1 except to just not get involved.

And that's certainly working out well, isn't it?

Originally Posted by totoum

As for why didn't Homura tell anyone I can see something like thishappening in the near future:

Kyoko: this is horrible,we must tell other MGs or anyone QB contacts about this
QB: silly,I wouldn't do that if I were you.
Kyoko:Why?
QB:Well,I didn't find it very practical to have people going around and dissuading girls from making the contract so I had to take measure
Kyoko:what did you do?
QB:there's a non disclosure agreement in your contract,say this to anyone and you break your contract and your wish will get undone.

That's honestly the best possible explanation I've heard yet. Well done!