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View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 07 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 58 | 41.13% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 47 | 33.33% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 23 | 16.31% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 9 | 6.38% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 3 | 2.13% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 0 | 0% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 0 | 0% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 1 | 0.71% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 0 | 0% | |
Voters: 141. You may not vote on this poll |
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2011-02-18, 13:37 | Link #201 | |
Cross Game - I need more
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: I've moved around the American West. I've lived in Oregon, Washington, Utah, and Oklahoma
Age: 44
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It's because she's already dead, can never have children, and from the backstory of Kyoko- will never age. Sayaka realizes that she is no longer a good romantic match for anyone, and she is absolutely correct. This is something that a lot of shows gloss over- if you are an undead eternally 15 year old girl, normal guys are not going to want a romance with you. And you will only bring misery to those that try. Sayaka realizes in her head that she's already lost Kamijou the moment she decided to become a magical girl- all because Kuybee didn't tell her everything about the price. (Yeah, "it's an irrelevant detail"). However, I don't get the whole "Sayaka is evil now" from the ending. What I get is that Sayaka is in enormous emotional pain and is dealing with it be taking a lot of risks, and aggressively attacking and going berserk on an acceptable target- a witch. She hasn't attacked anyone else because she's still got some metal inhibitions up. Sayaka is a very moral person who punishes herself for not being as moral as she aspires to be. We'll see what happens in the future- she could go off the deep end and become insane, dark, and evil. She could become a cynic like Kyoko, or a depressed fatalist like Homura. Or Sayaka could decide that even morally flawed as she is, she won't stop trying to live up to her ideals (essentially a reconstruction of the normal heroine archetype). I actually think that this last one is the most likely.
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2011-02-18, 13:43 | Link #202 | ||||||
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Like I said, I'm not buying it yet. What's happening here is no different than every other show out there, and yet we're told it is supposed to be bad somehow. Why? Because one person died and teenage girls are angsting? People die in other shows. Teenage girls angst in other shows. I'm sorry, but it's not convincing. Now, if they wanted to convince me, then show me exactly WHY they have to keep fighting. Does their soul gem darken automatically and they die when that happens? Or become a witch? Or do they lose their sanity as it goes dark? Mai HiME did a good job showing why the powers were a curse; it meant their loved ones were at constant risk. Not themselves, but the people they cared about most in the world. And the clash of personalities was believable, because everyone had a good reason why. So show me WHY I should believe that this universe is so grim dark. Hell, in Nanoha, there was blood and injuries were bad. But in Madoka, they have convenient bodies which can feel very little pain and be rebuilt easily! If anything, that makes Nanoha more threatening. Quote:
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"This trope is a major source of Angst Dissonance — if not used carefully, then a character being Cursed With Awesome carries the risk of plummeting straight into Wangst or Deus Angst Machina territory, as nothing is guaranteed to piss an audience off more than a character complaining about having abilities that are, on the face of it, utterly fantastic and that the audience would kill to have. This is especially a risk if a balance between the awesomeness of the powers and the suckiness of the consequences of possessing them is not maintained; if the drawbacks are outweighed by the benefits, then the character just looks whiny." I'm reminded of that sword chick from Negima, the one with the white wings. "*sniff* Look at me, I'm a monster!" That's why I'm not buying the "look at how awful and grim dark all of this is!" line of thought yet. Quote:
And I think Kyoko's story did have an effect on Sayaka; she realized where she was heading, and that Kyoko was the cynical example of what she could become. Sayaka decided she wouldn't be like Kyoko, but hold to her ideals of using her power to protect people. So while Kyoko helped, it just wasn't in the way Kyoko expected. Quote:
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I suppose we would know for sure if someone asked Kyube, but I doubt any of the girls will. =/ |
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2011-02-18, 13:43 | Link #203 | |
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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2011-02-18, 14:06 | Link #205 | |
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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Here I'll outline the differences for you, but just because you seem to be confused, let me define a term for you. Deconstruction a philosophical theory of criticism (usually of literature or film) that seeks to expose deep-seated contradictions in a work by delving below its surface meaning Now I'll explain how Madoka has done this so far. Magical girl series usually present the idea of becoming a magical girl as something incredibly heroic. It's the superman role. Superheros fighting against a clear evils or threats. Madoka on the other hand so far seems to go against this. The magical girls are almost more like victims rather than heros fighting against evil. They've been coerced into a situation where they think they're supposed to do something noble, fighting witches, when they have very little grasp of the situation they're actually in. We don't even know what witches are right now! Series like Nanoha have failed at this. They tried to bring in morally grey enemies, but through sheer idealism, were able to change their hearts in the end and made them friends. Now we're back to magical girls being simply good and protectors of justice. Nanoha tried to bring in more mature themes in Strikers, but again there's a serious lack of impact when no one ever has suffered major consequences for their actions and no one dies. They were too afraid to take the next step. Magical Girl series usually make the idea of magic fun. It's something cool, and something you'd like to be able to use. The world is interesting, and you possibly would like to take part in it. Madoka on the other hand shows this to be anything but that. Becoming a magical girl is not what you want to do. Sure you may have some powers, but the consequences, the physical and mental costs, and the depressing reality all trump the idea of magic being something worth wild to use in this world. This will especially be the case if they're constantly at threat of becoming a witch if they don't purify their soul gems. Series like Nanoha are anything but this. In the end, the Nanoha world is a colorful place, and Nanoha is shown to be happy all the time with her friends. Even Fate who was in a terrible situation ended up find salvation in a happy family and her friend Nanoha. The magical world was something you wanted to be a part of actually. Magical Girl Series usually have enemies that they can at least talk to. They are able to be judged with a human's morality. Again, Madoka doesn't do this. Witches are inhuman. Kyube isn't really their friend either and doesn't share their notion of human morality. Death comes quick. They don't even understand what is threatening the world. The enemy is not something as tangible as they would like. Series like Nanoha don't do this. The enemies have motivations and desires. They're humans, even if they disagree, they know and can eventually understand how to cope with the troubles they are to face. And many times, the enemies aren't even bothering to threaten their actual lives. Fate? Yeah right. The knights? Lol. The enemies are not truly presented as threatening as they are supposed to be for so called people woh may destroy the universe. Magical Girls usually simply fight for the ideas of justice. It was their choice to defend the world on their own. Again Madoka trumps this. Kyube used the idea of a miracle to coerce the magical girls into doing his dirty work. People like Sayaka can fool themselves all they want, but it was the wish in the end that made her do what she did. Magical Girls are shown to be fighting for themselves (Mami, Kyoko). They're not these noble people who only serve to protect humanity. =-====== Honestly I can keep going on and on.
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2011-02-18, 14:09 | Link #206 | |
Cross Game - I need more
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: I've moved around the American West. I've lived in Oregon, Washington, Utah, and Oklahoma
Age: 44
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Magical powers, fast healing, death avoidance, sounds pretty good... oh wait, there is that little having your soul ripped out and stuck in a gem thing. What we have here is Values Dissonance. You agree with Kuybee. "Who cares where my soul is, it's not like I can sense it anyway." Which by the way implies: "My soul is unimportant as anything other than a necessity for life." Which most people do not agree with. Kuybee even identifies why it's important to people (although he misses the importance). Human souls are contained throughout their bodies. It's in their nerves, their blood, their skin. Consider Sayaka's grief about how she can never kiss her love- because it won't be her. It won't be her lips on his. Her soul will not be intertwined with his. It will just be a lump of flesh, not a living soul, kissing her love. To you that is unimportant. "Who cares as long as I can feel and touch, and sense things." But that is a very materialistic (in the philosophical sense) way of viewing the world. Most people have a more mystical way of viewing things, particularly things revolving around love. Nor does this even get into the religious aspect, in that most religions identify life as a soul inside a human body. If you remove the soul from the body you are no longer alive. (I believe that Shinto holds this view too). This isn't some minor thing that has no importance, this is Fate Worse Than Death territory. It's eternal damnation stuff. Because your values about the location of souls are such an outlier compared to most people you simply can't understand the horror than other people are seeing. That's not because the anime is poorly made- it's just not made for someone who doesn't care about the location of their soul.
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2011-02-18, 14:11 | Link #207 | |||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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Nanoha used an unorthordox setting for the MG, but by essence, the execution itself is quite standard. By contrast, Madoka series is different considering the actual themes and messages behind. Whereas you had a "happy go lucky" crew in Nanoha dealing with remotely tortured antagonists, using the almighty "friendship" power, such thing does not work in Madoka. I think you are taking way too much on the logical side like Kyuubey is doing, and don't see the point in term of a psychological aspect. Certainly, they have more convenient body, but is that what they want? Is that truely allright to be basically a little gem piloting a flesh robot? I think you are not giving the appropriate credit regarding the issue about "not feeling human with this body", which leaves a weird conclusion regarding the theme used in Madoka. The deconstruction is there: you arguably have a mocking situation for the self righteous character, the main character is arguably -not- the happy go lucky ally of justice, the messenger/mascot itself has a very dubious agenda and/or methods, the antagonist is arguably not pleasant one bit etc. You really don't need any sense of physical impact to be different, and honestly, the fact there was potential wounds and blood in Nanoha was vastly overshadowed by its presentation and execution, leaving almost a perfect guarantee that "no one will die", where the sense of death in madoka is arguably present, even if it isn't really the physical death per se. Quote:
I wouldn't say it is really a cultural issue, but I do think it is belivable to think that not everyone can accept to be "not human anymore". As long as it is in line with the character and the given context, I don't get how one can blame the characterization given here. In appearance, Sayaka is the same as human, but in essence she is no longer human. That simple thought lead to a lot of complications, such like the plain and painful "immortality". Defining a human is a tad difficult, because the definition itself can be a sketch (for instance, those who have read Ever17 will understand, as I'm referring to Tsugumi speech: what is "yourself"? If you cut an arm, can you still call that arm "you"? What defines you with a body that is constantly renewing its cell etc? What is your own existence actually?). However, the representation of one's own existence is always personal and you can't have a formula. You might think that Sayaka didn't change, but as far as her characterization went, she cannot see herself human anymore. I will actually use the example you have brought: you seem to think it is ridiculous for Setsuna to complain about her powers. The problem isn't actually the powers themselves, it is actually what define them, and sorry to say, but she is "not human". No matter how you look at it, by essence she isn't, but her problem is that she didn't learn that "being human or not isn't the most important thing". That being said, you have to factor the fact that people react extremely differently when their "body" isn't the same. In reality, it happens much more often than people might think: people with a scar, an amputed limb etc will react extremely differently, and some might even consider them as "monsters". That is reality, and I think it is extremely weird and preposterous to put a logic like "she LOOKS human, and CAN act human, so no big deal". Not everyone are fine with what they "can" do, but what they "ARE". Which is the problem with Sayaka: even if you tells her that she can hug and kiss Kyousuke with this body, it doesn't mean she is human one bit. She can -act- as a human, but she is by essence not the same. This point is very important to define the thought process of such character. Quote:
Sayaka was characterized as a girl who push herself too hard, but for the wrong reasons. That is why I was criticizing her character, because to me, she was sheltering herself with a sense of "justice" whereas the true goal of hers was arguably not the same. The fact she thought for a single moment that Hitomi should rather be dead is a huge blow on her psyche, because it actually crumbles the so called "righteous justice facade" she made herself, unable to accept what Kyoko was saying: that this power is made for the MG's own sake. Even now, she doesn't exactly acknowledge that she did that for Kyousuke, thinking it is actually for justice and concern. However, once she realize that she has a selfish and gruesome thought, she snapped because she no longer has a solid conviction anymore: she cannot lie herself anymore, that she made such efforts in order to win Kyousuke. And because of the revelation she is "not human" anymore, it leads to a mess: that no matter what she does, it is "wrong": 1) even if she acknowledge she is doing it for herself, she cannot win kyousuke, because she is not human. 2) she cannot claim she is doing it for justice, because she wanted her best friend to die. The solution may be simple at the first glance, but such characters are unable to see through the situation, and just compute themselves with a "black and white" way, much like what she did with Kyouko etc.
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2011-02-18, 14:22 | Link #208 | |||||
スマイリウム
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Iwakawa Base
Age: 32
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2011-02-18, 14:38 | Link #209 | ||||||||||||||
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Big post due to several people to respond to. Tried to trim some stuff I thought unimportant. If you wanted me to respond to something specific and I didn't, please re-ask and let me know.
On the contrary, I've even listed criteria that would convince me, and a show that did (Mai HiME). I'd like to be convinced, but I'm not there yet. And I know what deconstruction is, thank you. My point was not about deconstruction at all, but about making me believe this is all bad. Quote:
And partially I'll agree about Nanoha, because that is an idealistic universe, whereas Madoka is a cynical one. Quote:
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This is exemplified in Kyoko. Sure, she had a bad past, but she enjoys her powers and the present. If someone is enjoying the powers, then it's not really a "Suck" situation. Quote:
We have many stories of people where their spirits disconnect from their bodies, or say someone becomes a ghost. Are they any less human, if they still possess human thoughts and feelings? You're right that I'm looking at it in a coldly logical way (which I've stressed over and over). Because emotions are just in the mind, and each of us decides what we want to be, and what we want to think of ourselves. At this time, there is nothing preventing her from having a relationship with Kamijou, except herself. When she kisses him, both of them will still feel it. Yes, you can postulate possible reasons, but we don't know any of that at this time. She still eats, shits, and sleeps, feels joy and pain, and can spend time with friends and family. To me, that's human enough. Quote:
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I'm reminded of the Doctor from Star Trek: Voyager, and how he became human. And one episode in particular, where he had a breakdown because he saved one patient and not another. They deleted his memory, but later were convinced to let him sit in the holosuite and work through it. He seemed very much a sentient creature to me, despite a lack of a flesh and blood body. I think you are not giving the appropriate credit regarding the issue about "not feeling human with this body", which leaves a weird conclusion regarding the theme used in Madoka. Quote:
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Just like with Setsuna, who thought her wings made her ugly and inhuman, when really most people would love to have such wings. Quote:
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The rest of what you're saying, I understand, it's just not convincing. The fact that Kyoko is living proof that one can accept it, and still lead a "normal" life shatters the notion. If Sayaka can't get over it, that's her problem. And I expect some angst; just not endless amounts of it. As the trope said, then it drops down into wangst territory. Quote:
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Where do witches come from, really? And what are they? Is there another way to deal with witches? Why is it only young girls being used? Can we get our soul back in our body and fight normally? What else is changed about us by becoming a magical girl? And these are just off the top of my head. I'm sure if I thought more, I'd come up with tons. Perhaps it's just me, but I have a hankering need for more information about what the hell is going on, and there is someone right there who can answer. |
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2011-02-18, 14:43 | Link #210 | ||||||||||||||||
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But I've read Gen be built up as this incredibly twisted writer that puts his characters through dementedly dark meat grinders. Going by that, I was expecting something at least as dark as Full Metal Alchemist, Ga-rei Zero, Higurashi, Shakugan no Shana, and Umineko. And so far, I haven't seen that. Quote:
Too much exposition, not enough "show, don't tell", imo. At this point in the anime, there probably should be a bit more visual confirmation to the bleak nature of the magical girl's life in this universe. Quote:
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I mean, if her body's appearance changed, even just a little bit (her eyes becoming entirely white, or perpetually bloodshot, for example) then I could relate a bit more to her being freaked out. But as is, she really does seem to be overreacting to me. Quote:
So I'll give the anime a slide here. Actually, I'd like a few more unusual developments (as long as the plot eventually makes sense out of them, of course), not less. Quote:
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Most magical girl animes have far more subtle and less flashy action scenes than Nanoha's. Quote:
One death in seven episodes doesn't really give a sense of unusually high degrees of danger for super-powered combatants. At least not for me. As for their enemies being inhuman... this is actually quite common in magical girl anime. Sailor Moon utilized the "Monster of the Week" approach just as much as Power Rangers did. And many magical girls do fight alone. Not all are in teams like we see with the Sailor Scouts or Nanoha and friends. Sakura was mostly fighting alone, albeit with her friend tape-recording her every move. Quote:
If Sailor Moon had died while fighting one of the monsters of the week, her parents would be unaware of how exactly their daughter died, and would simply notice that she's now gone. Quote:
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In complete honesty, I was hoping for this show to be a bit more action-packed than this. And a bit less exposition-heavy. Quote:
What makes you think that Nanoha was trying to make a cynical magical girl show? The whole idea behind Nanoha was to take magical girl character types, narrative approaches, and genre conventions, and spice it up with mecha-style action and conflict. In that, Nanoha was an exceptional success. Quote:
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2011-02-18, 14:58 | Link #211 | |
Varsity Slacker
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 33
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Otherwise, I'm feeling his limited in a sense by what's acceptable by whatever standard this show has presented so far (which seems to be more psychological than physically brutal). And at that Gen is then somewhat unable to really delve into the psychological states of each girl like he could do in a visual novel. So yeah, long story short I'm disappointed by Urobuchi Gen standards (unless last five episodes are freaking amazing).
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2011-02-18, 15:04 | Link #212 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Just finished watching the episode. It was really nice to see Kyoko loosen up(she's still a bitch though) after Kyubey revealed they are like zombies. I love the way they revealed Kyoko's past. The backgrounds they used and the BGM are superb. Well the animation is actually high quality this time around but I really find the abondoned church and the surroundings beautiful.
The end part was awesome yet depressing. I'm really feeling sad for Sayaka now and I hope Madoka will be able to save her later. Giving this episode a 9/10. Probably 10/10 after they remaster this episode in blu-ray / dvd. edit: uhhh... guys even though Madoka is planned to be grim dark. It is still a mahou shoujo anime and they stated they will be keeping elements of the genre so I don't see why you're expecting some super grim dark story.
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2011-02-18, 15:18 | Link #213 | |||||
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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It's just interesting to note because it seems people here probably also have differing perspectives on Nanoha. Quote:
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The reason I said it wouldn't make sense is that, if we were just dropped into pure carnage, it would be hard to take this seriously as a deconstruction of the magical girl genre. Also, I think the lack of overly exciting action is just again part of the deconstruction. Although you may not enjoy it, they're actually trying to make the battles seem not that exciting,b ut rather just brutally quick fights to the death.
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2011-02-18, 15:21 | Link #214 | |||
スマイリウム
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Iwakawa Base
Age: 32
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For instance, Homura seems to know a lot about MG business but I doubt she'd be less cold (or whatever) if she knew less. And Mami probably would have still died anyway, too, just with more knowledge which is basically mere info. Like I said I understand what you mean and there ought to be at least one or two very essential questions that could very much help in specific situations when answered. Like if Madoka knew about the SG earlier etc. but still. I think you're a bit too concerned about this. For that matter, all the other MG shows are in similar fashion, no? Quote:
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2011-02-18, 15:25 | Link #215 |
Varsity Slacker
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 33
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I wanted to say this, but just didn't have the heart to do it. Maybe if it was Urobuchi Gen directing himself he'd have the balls to send this anime into complete despair and carnage. However, with Shinbo at the helm he's held to abiding by some semblance of a magical girl standard and that may be admittedly a bit depressing. Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying Madoka Magica to a degree, but not to the degree of how I absolutely love Kikokugai and the like. Eh, at this point I'm just going to let the sadistic side of me take over and hope that at the end Madoka, Homura, or someone becomes lost in an inescapable pit of insanity and despair or some kind of sneer, bittersweet ending just so I can say that's the good old Gen I know. Sayaka's a start. One domino falls to start the chain they say.
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2011-02-18, 15:25 | Link #216 |
One-Eyed Dragon
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: NJ, USA
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Didn't expect Kyubey to hurt Sayaka, at least we finally get to see his dark side.
Interesting that Kyoko shared her story with Sayaka. Explains why she's always eating something. Sayaka again proves why she's an idiot for ignoring the advice. Enjoyed how they made Hitomi her rival in love, i think it's a better decision than having some unknown girl take Kamijo. At least Sayaka admitted tha she has regrets. Though at the end think she lost it. Definitely think she's a lost cause now. Madoka better listen to Homura now.
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2011-02-18, 15:28 | Link #217 | |||
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Join Date: Oct 2004
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2011-02-18, 15:30 | Link #218 | |||||||
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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I also disagree with the "depressed fatalist" notion for Homura, but I guess we better postpone this for 1-2 more episodes, when the focus will shift over to her. Quote:
Urobuchi said that he'd begin to throw at the viewer what he could come up with after ep6, and if you ask me, I see a kitchen sink incoming. Sure, I might still be wrong, but I don't think so. You know my predictions. Would you agree that if most of that came to pass, it would qualify as a "dark meat grinder" after all? Quote:
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2011-02-18, 15:32 | Link #219 | |||||
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Yeah, honestly speaking, I find that scene to be more powerfully moving and emotional and tragic, then anything I've seen in Madoka. Well, Mami's death was just about as moving, but ever since then, I haven't felt much. And this is coming from someone who isn't such a Fate fanboy. Quote:
As far as better position, I'm of the opinion that more information is rarely, if ever, a bad thing. I like to have as much as possible before making a decision, especially a life-altering one. For as much as I talk about how cool these powers are, and how great a situation these girls are in... I can imagine several scenarios which would instantly change my mind. I'd like to find out about any pitfalls in advance. So I suppose, I'm waiting on the series to actually show me why this is supposed to be bad. Quote:
But consider this: A number of people ardently believe there has to be a better way to handle this witch situation. We don't know how because... we lack information. Wouldn't you like more information so you could see if you could find a better way? A way to eliminate witches that doesn't require contracting young girls for life? Quote:
I don't blame a character for not picking up clues. I do blame them for not asking questions. While I like Sayaka, I see her main flaw is that she just made an assumption and jumped in without waiting or asking for clarification. So you can see how getting too comfortable with assumptions can blind someone. Quote:
The problem is, you can't protect people from themselves. No matter how many laws and such you lay out, nature will always give you a bigger idiot. At some point, you have to stop and say, "Look, we can't coddle you. We need people to exercise some discipline and personal responsibility." Sayaka a tragic case of someone who didn't ask to see the fine print. In any court of law in the US, a court would rule that she made a fair contract, and can't sue for damages just because they didn't read the fine print. I do place some blame on Kyube for not telling them, even though I understand why he doesn't. But Sayaka is equally to blame, here, and I LIKE her as a character. |
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2011-02-18, 15:37 | Link #220 | ||||
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Join Date: Mar 2010
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There is also a difference between fighting alone by choice and being alone. A person in the former may be physically alone, but she has friends that she can fall back on, either just to talk to about their abnormal situation, or as an ally to help in battle. Many of the Sailor Scouts also had solo battles, and Cardcaptor Sakura usually fought alone, but they still had someone they could trust. The only person whom the MGs can trust in Madoka in Madoka herself. Quote:
In Madoka, the Witches fight in their own little world. Should a MG die there and the Witch disappears, the MG stays in the Witch's world. In that case, without a trace of her body or a struggle taking place, the MG in Madoka would be considered just missing, not dead. Mami raised little, if any commotion, even though she's obviously absent from school now. No one would know, and I'm sure many students would just think she's home and sick instead of being killed. The MGs in Madoka are also a secret. In Sailor Moon, plenty of normal people knew who the Sailor Scouts were, even if they didn't know their true identity. In Madoka, a regular person does not even know that MGs exist, so when MGs die, their death is also unknown to the public, whether as a regular human or as their MG identity. Quote:
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Anyway, as for Kyousuke, Hitomi gave Sayaka plenty of time. While it looks like Hitomi only gave her a day, there's also the fact that Sayaka has known him since she was a child. Kyousuke should also be fairly popular, since he has his own professional CD and a career to go along with it. It's very likely that someone other than Sayaka could like Kyousuke, even with little on-screen development. |
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