2011-04-14, 00:16 | Link #22621 | |||||||||
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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The author theory was created to explain the meta world as being sort of a fictional intermission world. That serves to guide readers yes, but also allows character to grow without out-branching kakera fragments. Since the similarities between worlds didn't seem to be an emphasized point.
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Last edited by Judoh; 2011-04-14 at 00:37. |
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2011-04-14, 00:42 | Link #22622 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
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Well, that kinda answered a bunch of questions I had, glad to have that much cleared out for me.
I still am not totally enlightened about the Meta-world though. I guess I should ask the main question I have about it: Am I supposed to see it's plot only as a means for hints on the game board, or do I need to keep track of the magical plot in it? Like for example, should I ignore the fight between Will and Bernkastel, and only listen to what Bernkastel told Ange about what happened after Eva left the island as a clue? My main problem with that is Bernkastel and Lambdadelta, what about them? Are they ''not real'' as well? Erika said to Beatrice: ''Well, alternate dimensions like this are actually becoming common in detective novels'', and then Beatrice says ''(forgot the name) doesn't make his debut until next year''. And then there's the whole part where child-Ange is crying and Battler comes to tell her the story of ''what really happened'' (end of EP 7), this just really confused me. When did this happen? Was Bernkastel's torture of Ange just a metaphor for kids bullying her in the aftermath of Rokkenjima's tragedy? Is a different form of Ange living in a different dimension(meta world), and the real Ange living in the real world, and BATTLER was telling the story to Meta-Ange, who has nothing to do with the Ange of the real world? Was the whole court of illusions just a metaphor for Erika pinning Natsuhi as the culprit? Or are both scenes true, just the court of illusions scenario happening in a different dimension? Stuff like that, basically. Oh, and yeah I knew that Kyrie had said her baby was stillborn in EP 3, what I was saying is that I never saw it revealed that Battler was her son, basically, where it is revealed. But if she wasn't entirely sure it survived, that answers my question. I was just wondering how someone as smart as her could honestly not realize that her child was conveniently alive, and never heard from it again, not realizing it was Battler all along. |
2011-04-14, 01:08 | Link #22624 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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There are a lot of people don't think Ep7's Tea Party is reliable at all if you ask them. But yeah the meta world is ripe with metaphor. It's not all important though. It's a good idea to pay attention to the gameboards too. But I don't think you can call the gameboard more "true" than the meta world or anything. They're both sort of happening.
I've also heard it's been implied in EP8 that Lambdadelta and Bernkastel will appear in a later when they cry series if that helps any. And that Ange probably represents Ange's inner child or something. Since she appears in Episode 8. Quote:
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2011-04-14, 01:16 | Link #22625 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
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In other words, the whole Meta-World thing is just like the Catbox? In that case I guess I should just reread it from both perspectives when I have the time.
If Episode 8 really does reveal this much, I can't wait to buy it, I want to wait until EP 8 before I reread through the entire tale. |
2011-04-14, 01:22 | Link #22626 |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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I won't bother to type the whole theory since it's probably going to be shut down entirely anyway but...
Basically I'm thinking Rokkenjima Prime doesn't even really matter. "Reality" could be a girl who writes a book and showed it to someone in her class whom she has an interest to. That way trying to make said reader understand a message that's sorta "hidden" in the story. That seems to me to make as much sense as a Rokkenjima prime we have between next to none and none at all information about. Even if that is wrong it at the very least allow me to try to see the story from a perspective of messages rather then anything, and it seems to be the goal of the arcs. Making us understand messages while playing a mystery murder game. |
2011-04-14, 02:55 | Link #22627 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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read toward the end of this http://witch-hunt.com/hist.html I think the EP3 interviews are also sorta relevant http://community.livejournal.com/witchhunters read these http://darenome.wordpress.com/2009/0...i07-interview/ http://darenome.wordpress.com/2009/1...7-interview-2/ and this interview on EP 8 http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...34#post3293734 Be prepared.
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2011-04-14, 08:27 | Link #22628 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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Understand that R-Prime itself need not necessarily be the top-level fiction. To use your example, you could have something like: Story Some Girl Wrote In Class > "Rokkenjima Prime" & Meta-World > Rokkenjima Stories > Embellishments of Stories In your example of a "no Prime," R-Prime is not a developed universe, but more of a template in which the girl writing the story is drawing from. People, places, and events are all the same, allowing the Rokkenjima Stories to pull things from them (Battler and Yasu, Kinzo's mysterious condition, the Ushiromiya family and their business problems). It "exists," but the girl writing the higher-order fiction isn't concerned with fleshing it out, opting instead to use the Meta-World as a bridge layer where she'll develop her characters. Of course, this could go on forever; you could insert an additional heretofore-unseen fictional layer above that one, and another above that, and perhaps a meta-reality layer on top of ours. But they're not as strongly supported as an R-Prime is by the Rokkenjima Stories, which is why I think a "no Prime" ordering is unlikely but not impossible. It's very much a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude thing.
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2011-04-14, 12:23 | Link #22630 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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It's the "real world" of Umineko, if such a thing exists at all.
Basically the "reality" in which the Rokkenjima Incident happened and the world that discovered the message bottle stories and the world in which the subsequent stories were written and read. If it exists.
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2011-04-14, 13:51 | Link #22631 |
Thought Being
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Canada
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There is other theories about the Meta-World as well. I'm not gonna go into hufe detail, but I believe that the meta-world is a bigger space on top of the 3-dimensional reality, where consciousness is more free form and has more control. Under my definition Higurashi and Umineko are linked through the same meta-world, just the stories told are greatly different based on the perspectives and restrictions put on them. (such as knowledge about how the Fragments work and restrictions such as the fantasy vs. mystery) For me, it's the meta-world story line that's important, but all theories of the meta-world seem to be more or less equal and it really comes down to personal taste and stance towards the story.
Check out some of my signature links if you want more in depth info on my theory.
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2011-04-14, 13:58 | Link #22632 | ||
The True Culprit
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@R-Prime: Basically everything we've read about the Rokkenjima Incident is a story or manuscript that was read or written by characters like Ange or Hachijou. Therefore, there has to theoretically be a "Rokkenjima Prime" that is none of these "worlds" and is the actual truth of what happened. Whether or not the 1998(s) we've seen is part of Rokkenjima Prime is debatable.
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2011-04-14, 17:51 | Link #22633 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In the Meta- World... on Virgillia's bed.
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"Yes, you may have your name change." Few hours later, Natsuhi is notified of the change. "Yasu! How dare you change your blessed name!? Who gave the right?" Genji: "It was deemed by the master for her name to be changed." "But that's madness!" "It was deemed by Master himself." "Well, fine! Go off and then!" Now, to clarify, whether she knew Kinzo was her father or not, she still had benefits that she could exploit. Even a ten year old child would figure when she's getting special treatment, especially when they are bullied for it. And we all know that Natsuhi wouldn't argue against Kinzo. And yes, I did read Ep7. It confused the heck out of me (I understood the events that transpired, the reasoning behind the events-- specifically, Yasu's backstory-- is what confused me), which is why I made up my own theory to make it all make sense in my head. Now, I understand that they could've switched randomly between names, thank you for that explanation. Now please tell me how a girl "becomes a witch" and the servant "persona" stays behind, has her memory re-written, and becomes real. Furthermore, how does she create another boy "persona," practically talks to herself in public, and no one says anything about it? Listen, I'm not trying to dispute anything. I just don't understand Yasu's backstory and YasuShannontrice doesn't help explain it fully. |
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2011-04-14, 19:02 | Link #22634 | |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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It is normally a given that you do not see the author within the fiction. However it is very normal that you can still learn a lot about an author from their work. Ryuukishi is not a Umineko character. Also, normally authors aren't trying to make anyone find anything about the "real world". If they did, I'd at least expect it to be a bit more direct then Umineko. Generally speaking, I do not see outside of Ange an interest in finding a "single truth" about what "really happened" (if that means anything). To me your order of things is almost the other way around. <Author Level, whatever it is> obviously would be the highest level of reality, wether or not we actually see it within Umineko. That produced arc 1, a fictional story that is intended to be discovered that is such. At the end of arc 1 instead of having everyone visually dying, instead the scenes change to a "breaking the fourth wall" event where we see the characters talking about the story they were just in, fully aware that it is a story and wondering about it's genre. That in itself isn't very uncommon. Many stories showed us, especially at the end, scenes with the characters breaking the fourth wall completely and talking about the story they were just in. However in Umineko, these scenes actually become part of the story, and a story on their own. That is the meta-world, the world of breaking the fourth wall (except it's the fourth wall of the fiction within fiction they are breaking it seems). Obviously a "breaking the fourth wall level" cannot exist without the story it orriginates from. As thus to me, the Meta-World is a third and much lower level then the main story. It does affect back however the main story. Then the final and lowest level to me would be that so called "Rokkenjima Prime". To me it's like a byproduct of "the rest". It is only because we were gradually showed all the other levels that we wanted to find out an "absolute level" and that's Rokkenjima Prime. To give a very simple example of what it can mean, is that to me Yasu's personality is that of an author of a mystery story in relation to their work. She does things for reasons normally author woulds, but normally authors aren't in their fiction. As thus I am lead to believe that Yasu's backstory is only born out of trying to make sense on "how could a human being actually have the same personality as an author toward their work". (If you don't get what I mean by an author in relation to their work, well author make murders in their story cause it makes them more interesting, they don't have hatred or vengence etc for their "victims"). So to me it's like... Author Level - Fictional Level - Breaking the Fourth Wall (meta world) - Rokkenjima Prime Byproduct of the rest. Tho if I was to actually explain my thoughts concerning this and why I came to believe this, I'd write like 2-3 pages of stuff per point I made in this post. |
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2011-04-14, 20:24 | Link #22635 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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And the story fits with what we know about Shannon in previous episodes. In other words her being, a servant for 10 years, and being a a bit of a clutz and her childhood promise with Battler. The Shannon Yasu talks to is her image of the ideal servant she wants to become and she emphasizes this constantly in episode 7 with her admiration of her and calling her the complete opposite of herself. As for Kanon nobody actually sees her talking to herself. Besides Genji who doesn't matter. One explanation seems to be that they did notice, but that the thought of them being the same person seemed just as unthinkable of an idea to them as it was for us.
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2011-04-15, 08:26 | Link #22636 | ||
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Join Date: Dec 2010
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Most people interpret that scene as Kasumi and her men being killed by someone sniping at them which Ange imagining the Stakes, then the Eva figure appears with a gun. It's a reasonable assumption. |
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2011-04-15, 13:50 | Link #22637 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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By the way, I was going over some of those interview links Judoh posted...
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I'd still like to go back through EP3 and 4 and view it from Battler-Tooya's perspective... |
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2011-04-15, 15:11 | Link #22638 | |||||
The True Culprit
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Hell, how would Yasu even get a chance to ask that sort of thing of him? She's not a One-Winged Servant, yet, and neither of them know of their blood ties. Quote:
Eventually she discovers the fun of pranking, so she continues being a servant by day, and at night she dresses up in a witch costume and plays around, simple as that. She doesn't have any sort of multiple personalities, she's just a dedicated roleplayer, pretending to be two people in order to feel powerful and less lonely. For that same reason, she eventually creates Kanon to help bandage her heart in-between lovers, pretending and dressing up as both throughout, and made sure their schedules didn't conflict and betray her secret. Telling Genji, Nanjo, or Kumasawa is pretty unnecessary; the second they found out, they'd have to support the illusion because otherwise Yasu would probably get fired and kicked off the island, which would spoil their master plan to return Kinzo his child and allow him redemption. Cue massive string-pulling to get everyone to not question Kanon's existence. Quote:
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The Eva figure is nothing more but a personification of the Black Witch; the metaphorical final obstacle that Ange has to smash in order to complete her worldview. That's all.
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2011-04-15, 18:03 | Link #22639 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In the Meta- World... on Virgillia's bed.
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2011-04-15, 21:22 | Link #22640 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
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There are, however, a couple instances where that's not the case - for example, Rosa was presented as clearly acknowledging them both in EP2, outside the Chapel - but that's just sort of the author's ability to do whatever, because Battler doesn't see that and Rosa was probably recruited into a scheme by then. Same as the prison scenes in EP4. Though, even if it's unnecessary, I think it's silly to think that Gensawajo was completely ignorant of Shkanon. |
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