2011-07-27, 09:59 | Link #321 | ||
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tbh, there are many things that I personally found a bit annoying about Sayaka. Thing is, unlike the many "dislikers" (xD), I didn't interpret them as major offenses of any sort, but only as something that maybe made me roll my eyes, or made me sigh for her. She wasn't my favorite I admit, and I only started really feeling for her when Hitomi announced that she's a backstabbing friend you could do without. But I can't understand hating her, because no matter how you look at it, she might be a bit annoying, but she's a good girl, that tragically fell in love with a no-good guy and had a friend that could do with a good punch in the face. And she made a noble but tragic and regrettable sacrifice. Tbh, in all this, I blame Kamijou and Hitomi much more than Sayaka.... Quote:
thank you, my thoughts exactly. I don't understand why people seem to keep insisting that Kamijou being able to play again was a wasted sacrifice, or a stupid decision or whatever :s And why you would compare it to some childish dream is SO beyond me, when it was made plenty clear that the kid was some kind of music prodigy, and it was therefore not some childish dream Some talents are nurtured early on, because they will not be able to reach their peak if they decided later. So just because someone is young, doesn't mean what they do is some childish dream. If that were so, we would have no olympic level athletes, or classical concert musicians. They have to have this as their dream at this age, and it was really sufficiently explained that Kamijou was one of those- and those kind of dreams (some name it "calling" or somesuch) aren't in any way comparable to kiddie dreams of becoming a policedog or something xD Those people might never get over it either, so that's probably the most silly criticism of Sayaka I've heard... I can understand some other critics to an extend, but this point seems like a very non-debateable one. Unless you maybe want to argue that she should've taken it back- but I don't agree that she should necessarily, it depends on how you interpret Kamijous motivations.... |
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2011-07-27, 13:18 | Link #322 | |||||||||||
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At the end of the day, I think that Sayaka gets hated on for pretty much the same reasons that Superman gets hated on. In other words, for being an idealistic hero with strong moral beliefs that some fans find overly strict (i.e. "Lawful Good"). However, while some dislike The Man of Steel for this reason, it's also for this exact same reason that many people do like him, and I think that The Blue Puella Magi is the same. I like Sayaka a lot largely for the same reasons I like Superman a lot (the differences being that Sayaka also is a moe genki girl, but Superman is much less tragic of course). With modern entertainment dominated by anti-heroes and cynical protagonists, I find characters like Superman and Sayaka Miki quite refreshing. Quote:
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I also like swords, and I do find that I tend to like blue-haired girls in anime. Quote:
Akashin addressed your arguments very well I felt, but I wanted to add a bit on a few points. Quote:
It's no different, really, then when Mami became blissfully happy and thankful just before her bad run-in with Charlotte... Anyway, Sayaka was just fangirling over the moment, in a sense. Quote:
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However, after seeing Sayaka, a person very much like what Kyoko used to be, Kyoko realized that she wasn't wrong for wanting to be a hero, and that the fault lied in the horrific Puella Magi system itself (the soul gem reveal also helped make that clear to Kyoko). Not seeing a way to correct that system, Kyoko decided that she wanted out. She was tired of playing the social darwinist game forced upon her by the Puella Magi system, and decided to go out in a blaze of glory by taking Witch!Sayaka down with her. In so doing, Kyoko would go out somewhat heroically, and would not allow Sayaka to wreck havoc as a harmful monster so as to give Sayaka a slightly less tragic (and more dignified) end. Quote:
Homura wants to protect Madoka. To accomplish that, Homura can't give in. Sayaka has already saved Kamijo. That's been done. She can give in. Really, Sayaka's main goal was achieved the moment she made her wish. Homura's main goal can only be achieved if she doesn't quit. Homura really is fighting for her wish. Sayaka isn't, as her wish has already been achieved. Basically, Homura has more personal reason to keep fighting on than Sayaka does.
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2011-07-27, 14:17 | Link #323 | |||||
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"I will ever hold against her" Thats you. And yet you state you "don't understand" why Sayaka is not popular and say its the same "error" everyone else is making. Yes absolutely Quote:
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Yes, its just everyone else is wrong. Yes absolutely. Oh wait that sounds just like Sayaka. |
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2011-07-27, 14:23 | Link #324 | ||
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The main character would more often than not be a positive character with an idealistic outlook, and we would find cynical or broken protagonists/anti heroes refreshing =) (My best example is when Angel Sanctuary (or any other Kaori Yuki manga. Or X-1999) was released, and we devoured it, because the protagonists (and essentially no one in there) were not positive and idealistic, but predominantly messed up. I remember myself being fed up with what I then perceived as self righteous, annoying characters (who most likely had a trouble free past) who have troubles understanding less fortunate characters (who were then often rivals or villains, at least initially). And often they would go about criticizing these more troubled characters, despite not having a clue what they went through. It used to really bother me =D Nowadays, the roles have been more or less reversed.... and we are glad to see an idealist pop up... (I mean the type of main character that.. say, most, if not all Magical Girl shows have, and a lot of shounen series used to have. I remember Yu Gi Oh GX had the most horrible example of this type of "annoying idealist" as a main. i'm not saying Sayaka is annoying btw, I love her, and she's deep, not chronically airheaded like some of those characters were This is just in reference to your statement about idealists being refreshing nowadays.) Quote:
Being afraid was maybe a factor, but not THE factor why she waited. The boy had just lost his dream and arguably purpose in life, a confession is probably the last thing he wanted to hear... As to why she didn't do it in the years before that- well, she was just too young. 13-14 is the kind of age where I would expect them to start admitting their feelings, but then the accident happened. The way I understood the show, she was planning to reveal it to him now that he had been healed, but then she started learning the truth about the system, realizing what she had signed up for, and then BAM- the soul gem reveal that she just couldn't take, like you said. Maybe I misunderstood, but I got this impression.. =) |
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2011-07-27, 14:30 | Link #325 | |
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Lets say there is no magic just like in real life. Now your younger sibling/BFF (who just happens to be a violinist or pianist), just lost lets say 70% of the strength of one hand. A military doctor says he could heal it if you went and fought in Iraq for the rest of your life. I'm assuming you're going to jump at the chance? Lets say you don't jump at this chance for whatever strange reason, what happens to younger sibling/BFF now? Are they going to die if you stay focused on helping them? Can they get over this setback with your help? |
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2011-07-27, 14:49 | Link #326 | ||||||
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If that's not the point you were making here... I'm not at all sure what the point actually is. Lastly, how does that quote have anything at all to do with not understanding why Sayaka is not popular? Unless you're trying to imply that I'm saying that other people might hold healing Kamijou against her, in which case, no, I truly do not understand why people would. But really, I fail to understand where you're going with that. Quote:
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2011-07-27, 16:32 | Link #327 | |
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- first of all, you're using a younger sibling or friend as comparison, which is the first inaccuracy. To Sayaka, Kamijou is the guy she is infatuated with (and from her POV: very much in love with). These connections are vastly different- I'm not saying one is inferior, just that they are completely different. If you were to apply the Sayaka scenario onto real life, you still have to use "the guy I think I'm in love with", instead of substituting. It makes the comparison inaccurate. I think most people use a different approach towards their love interest compared to their family relations, wouldn't you agree? - But for the sake of argument, let's assume my love interest, that I, in my youthful naivity believe to be the only person I'm meant to be with, is an exceptionally talented individual. For this person, you need to understand, their special talent is everything. If you ask them about what their life is about, they will tell you "the violin" (or gymnastics. or whatever). It matters more to them than, say, friends, or general education, or anything. Therefore, if for some reason they couldn't pursue it anymore, they will first try everything to fix it. Then they will eventually give up. Then they will despair. Then, eventually, they will busy themselves with something else, put it out of their mind. An outsider might then conclude that they have grown past it and found other things to do with their lives. Thing is though, they will always regret this and carry it with them, because trust me, this will always be what they really wanted to do, and they will thus quite possibly conclude that they missed the chance to do what they were "born for", if it was taken from them by force (accident, illness, unfortunate circumstances etc) as opposed to "lack of talent", or "clear defeat". So to answer your question: They won't die. But they won't be as happy as they would be, if they could have pursued their talents. And some, including myself would argue that that isn't true fulfillment/happiness. It's a substitute. It might also be okay, but it's not what they really wanted or needed. It's 2nd best. And to answer your other question: Yes, I would have taken the military doctor up on his offer. Maybe you find that stupid, or don't agree with that, but it's a pretty easy decision if you think you're in love, and the person in question is suffering. I do admit though, it is an emotional decision, and it's not for everyone, and I can understand why someone would not like the thought of it. Nonetheless, deciding to do this for someone is noble and selfless. Is it not? Therefore this is the one point I don't understand all the criticism for. Other points I find more understandable, but here she was really noble and selfless, and I see it as possibly the best thing she's done in the show. I could understand if you were coming down on her for being horrible to Madoka about not becoming a Puella Magi... Last edited by Faerie; 2011-07-27 at 17:09. |
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2011-07-27, 17:33 | Link #328 | |
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I love Sayaka. I wanted her to come around. I wanted her so much to have a happy end. Her story was so heartbreaking... I never ever cared for Superman. And it's indeed the "lawful good" thing I can't stand. When people talk about Sayaka healing Kamijou's hand as "noble", my impulse is to roll my eyes. Not so much because I disagree, but because words like "noble" tend to distract from the life that's going on right before you. Take Sayaka's situation. Sayaka was quick to understand Mami's distinction: why do you make that wish? Do you want to heal him? Or do you want to make him your boyfriend? But because of a strict moral code, she didn't know how to handle it. Some people here think Sayaka was "noble", others that she was "selfish". Me, I think that's a phony distinction. It's quite possible to want both. Sayaka felt like a horrible person for hoping for gratitude or... more. Poor Sayaka. It's perfectly normal to hope that; you're not a horrible person because of that. Chances are you will be disappointed; how will you deal with this, then? Here, I think, her morals got in the way. If this was supposed to be a "good" wish, she couldn't possibly have stake in it. The two guys on the train? While it's pure speculation, I don't think it's implausible to assume that "Dark Sayaka" made the connection between them and Kamijou. Women sacrifice themselves for the ones they love, and they just laugh it off and call them annoying. So that's what we're doing it for? Sayaka can only face her feelings in terms of higher morals, and that's crippling her, I think. Kyouko's suggestion to break Kamijou's limbs shows the opposite approach; taking feelings in extremes of passion. Red flame, blue ice. Polar opposites. Both positions are perilous, but Kyouko's way seems to be a better soul-gem-stress-relief method. What neither positions take into account is Kamijou's feelings. [In both positions he's basically the ungrateful jerk.] What Sayaka would have needed to do is figure out the difference between hoping something would happen as a result of her sacrifice, and a condition placed by her on sacrificing. Both impulses could be called "selfish", but in the former you're merely facing what you'd like to have in return. Accepting that will prepare you for disappointment. But Sayaka's fixation on "selfish = bad" got in the way, and she couldn't see that. As a result, the disappointment turned bitter and found no release. But how could I hate her for that? It's so tragic. If only somebody would have told her that it's alright to hope for your own happiness ("good selfishness"), as long as your realise that you may be disappointed and don't hold that disappointment against others ("bad selfishness"). (And wasn't that pretty much her ending?) Selfish? Noble? Besides the point (in my viewing), but poor Sayaka beat herself up over that very distinction. And it's an isoluble mess, because people aren't either/or. If Sayaka were my daughter (showing my age here, lol), I'd be so proud of her. But I'd also tell her to loosen up on two counts: a) if you don't allow yourself to want things for yourelf you're going to be miserable, b) if you keep demanding your morals from others, you're going to be constantly disappointed (except by people who conveniently die before they have the chance *cough* Mami *cough*). |
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2011-07-28, 13:21 | Link #329 | |
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I thought it might be the tragic aspect, but it's really more among the lines of what you said, it's her dilemma that attracted me to her as a character. By the way, I wouldn't really say her decision to become a Puella Magi was "noble". If anything it was her ep 12 decision to keep things as they are. To be honest, it is a decision that bothers me at the same time though, depending on how you interpret Kamijou. But anyway, I just agree with what you said there =) |
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2011-07-28, 15:38 | Link #330 | |
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When I look at it from the position of emotional development, the ending is plausible. I'm also quite happy that Sayaka found peace in her decision. That is, I quite like the direction it has taken. But compared with the detailled and extraordinary development she went through during the show, it feels sort of flat. Too simple. Too smooth. (And Kamijou's "Sayaka?" was downright cheesy.) That is: what happened is basically okay, but how they treated it... it just felt hurried. We're shown just enough to see that Madoka made the right decision. The exectution of Sayaka's ending was about Madoka, really, not Sayaka. (And due to time constraints, that makes sense, too.) From a moral point of view that smoothing bothers me a bit. Basically, Sayaka has sacrificed everything and is fine with it. If I'd call that noble I sort of condone that as an ideal. But that only works if I make a distinction between extraordinary people and normal people. I can't ask of everyone to sacrifice themselves, or there'd be no-one left to sacrifice yourself for. I simply can't condone that total self-sacrifice. I can't call it noble, without applying a double standard of the following sort: I hope that people sacrifice themselves for me, while at the same time hoping that I won't have to sacrifice myself. Yet, that sort of attitude is sort-of necessary to keep up self-sacrifice as "noble". Someone has to receive the sacrifice. Basically, someone's dealt the shitty cards, but we put a pretty face on it so that some people want to draw the shitty card. Now look at that situation from a gender point-of-view. Look for "I'm happy if you are" support scenes and see how often you find boys in the support role. And that's the magical girl genre in a nutshell. It's Madoka's ending, but above all it's Sayaka's ending. Basically, the show's telling us that Sayaka's life was not wasted because Kamijou got to live his dream. Considering the circumstances, this is probably the best Sayaka can hope for. But I feel that smoothing over the conflict inherent in such a ending cheapens Sayaka's struggles and writes off "Dark Sayaka" as an aberration rather than as a part of her. This is what bothers me. (Not sure that makes sense; as I said - it's complex.) EDIT: Above you mention X-1999. I love the way that ending plays with the sacrifice trope, pushed onto the characters by fate; they subvert that fate by fulfilling it but also subverting it through mutual respect. |
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2011-07-28, 21:48 | Link #331 | |
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But I think that Sayaka felt, when it's all said and done, that it was really worth her personal sacrifice in order to make Kamijo a great violin-player again. Is it noble? Well, was there a way to heal Kamijo's arm that wouldn't require Sayaka to make the sacrifice that she did? Probably not. Given the lack of a less costly means of helping Kamijo, I find the act somewhat admirable (of course I'm a bit hesitant here, because strictly on a surface level, a life-for-an arm does seem a bit much ). It's certainly not something you could expect of another person - indeed, even the thought of someone making such a sacrifice wouldn't cross my mind - but it's admirable precisely because it helps another person, and not everybody would do it (few would, chances are). Incidentally, this is why I differ with you on "Lawful Good" characters, and why I differ with SkullFaerie on idealistic characters. Characters like these typically make sacrifices that few in their shoes would make. And personally, I just have to respect a character that's really willing to go that far to help others and/or to stay true to his/her personal convictions. It's not to say it makes different characters worse, just that it adds something that I personally find admirable in the characters who do go that far. Superman could work for Lex Luthor if he wanted to, earn incredible wealth, virtually rule the world, spend all of his time doing things he enjoys doing, and avoid conflicts that truly put his life in danger. He'd probably be happier for it, but his world would likely be worse off for it. Sayaka could have taken back the wish (or never made it in the first place), and lived a generally happy, normal life. Or she could have gone the route Kyouko had advocated, using her powers to benefit herself (i.e. be "top of the food chain"). But instead she decided to help Kamijo and save some lives (don't forget the lives she saved in Episode 4, ironically including Hitomi ). Now, I don't think that total self-sacrifice is a good ideal, because usually you don't have to go that far to make a positive difference (in other words, its unnecessarily extreme in most cases). But the desire to make a positive difference, even if it doesn't benefit you personally, is an admirable desire, and that alone is perhaps worth idealizing, imo. And that's what Sayaka displayed in Episode 12 (since, at that point, it was clear that she was going to get no personal benefit out of her wish). All of the above being said, I do appreciate how you and SkullFairie have pointed out a means by which Sayaka can be viewed in a positive light (or at least a sympathetic one), even if one does not like "lawful good" characters in general.
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2011-07-28 at 22:11. |
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2011-07-29, 04:26 | Link #332 | |||
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Anyway, we certainly agree on that point. I'm snipping the point about morals, because I fear a tsunami of text rolling over this thread that has little to do with Sayaka. Let me just say that I do appreciate your thoughtful posts, as they allow me to figure out things about my own reactions I might not have otherwise noticed. (Also, I love the alignment game... Kyubey = lawful neutral. Absolutely. ) Quote:
On that note, I was quite pleased that Sayaka won a preliminary round in the Japanes moe-contest. That was a nice surpise. |
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2011-07-29, 07:38 | Link #333 | |||||
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And yes, that might have been part of the problem. Personally, I think that Sayaka had a serious love of music in general, and this factored in heavily both for her love of Kamijo, and her decision to save him even when she knew he wouldn't end up with her romantically. So, yes, this is what Sayaka did it for. For the (potentially) world-class musician. Quote:
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I'm not looking for debate on morals/philosophy alone, as that wouldn't be appropriate for a character thread of all things. Quote:
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2011-07-29, 08:14 | Link #335 | |
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And, uh... What? I almost feel like this isn't an argument worth having. I get the feeling you're trying to fault Sayaka for using her wish on a single person instead of as many as possible, but, you know... Madoka was sort of the only person who didn't use her wish for a single person (Mami saved herself, Homura entered Groundhog Day for Madoka, Kyoko gave her father followers, and Sayaka gave Kamijou his dream back). So really, I have no idea what argument you're trying to make here... Sheesh. |
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2011-07-29, 08:56 | Link #336 | |
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2011-07-29, 09:02 | Link #337 | |
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Oh wait... I'm not disputing that there are bigger wishes to be made; of course there are. But that wasn't the point at all, and I'm not sure why you think it was. |
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2011-07-29, 09:30 | Link #338 | |
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While it's mildly disappointing that neither of these girls (including Madoka until the very end, chances are) thought of a 'big picture' wish like "End world hunger", or "End all war", or "Cure cancer", I think it's pretty picky to bring it up as a major bone of contention with either of them.
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2011-07-29, 09:42 | Link #339 |
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Mami and Homura were in desperate situations, and Kyouko was pretty small. But Sayaka had all the time in the world to think logically about what kind of things she could do with her wish. Kyuubey did say that any kind of wish can be granted with the Magical Girl contract, after all.
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2011-07-29, 09:59 | Link #340 |
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I'm impressed that you think a person would logically consider what they could do for humanity as a whole with a free wish instead of what they could get for themselves, but the reality is that few would. And Sayaka is no different. She saw a free wish and saw the guy she loved falling into despair over not being able to pursue his dream anymore, and made a wish to help him. I can see why you would call that wish "small" in the scope of other possible wishes she could have made, but I utterly fail to see why you would call her foolish for it.
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