[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Xenon_gun]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Yasu survived and was in contact and cooperation with Eva. Yasu wrote her stories post-incident and Eva helped facilitate their distribution.

Thoughts?

So, the real question is: Why do Touya&Ikuko write in such a way as to reinforce Beatrice's mysteriousness? Is it because they are revealing information or ideas they have about Beatrice through their fiction? Or, are they using fiction to "reveal" misinformation?

And (this seems to be becoming something of a catch phrase for me)...
It makes sense if Ikuko=Yasu.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

I considered it. It's another idea I liked and that's possible but for which I couldn't find solid evidence apart from the fact that Yasu's stories might have helped Eva to cover up for the real culprit.

I don't know however how Eva would feel in regard to Yasu.
She didn't seem to have gotten a good impression of her in Ep 7 tea Party, though it can be a distorsion or a lie or she could have revised her opinion.

Eva post Rokkenjima is presented as very bitter and almost cruel but that's Ange's point of view so I don't think it's completely reliable.

Even if I tend to think for Eva it would be more convenient to accuse Yasu of being the culprit... I assumed also that some circumstances in Rokkenjima Prime might have caused Eva to decide to cooperate with her.

Maybe she could have learnt the truth on her and felt pity for her or due to assorted circumstances the two could have stuck an alliance against the true culprit.

I'll call these parts and raise you one more theory.

The Eva Ushiromiya that went to Rokkenjima and the Eva Ushiromiya that returned from the island are not the same person.

As was pointed out earlier in the discussion, is it not convenient that the message bottles presumably written by the culprit throw all blame at himself, the person that is now considered dead?
Also, in order to reinforce this kind of reasoning, parallels to And Then There Were None are invoked in the messages.
Would it not be perfect if the culprit 'died' and became somebody else?

What I'm aiming for is, 'The Eva Ushiromiya that returned from Rokkenjima is, in fact, Yasu.'

It has been pointed out that neither Ange nor Okonogi would fall for that. Okonogi (who also, curiously, knows the 'Without love, it cannot be seen.' phrase) could've been bought off from further investigation by the gold. Ange might've been too distant from Eva in the past to be sure something is wrong. She did feel something was odd, as noted in the quoted parts above.

'Eva' eventually fakes her death and becomes yet another person (maybe she had already played this role whenever she had time?), that is, Ikuko. Ikuko keeps writing in such a way that would further throw blame onto Shkanon, if solved.

This whole theory is based on the existence of Shkanon shenanigans (a person capable of playing the role of a nonexistent member of the opposite sex coupled with personality tricks) and Kinzo's title trick.

[Kylon99]

How about this instead:

The Ushiromiya Tooya/Battler that we see... is actually YASU! Battler was the one who really died in the ocean and Beatrice-Yasu survived. But when she awoke she had no memories. When she recovered what she thought were memories, she had actually ended up recovering her narrative of what Battler was doing and what he was like.

Why does Ikuko mistake Yasu for Battler? Because Yasu's gender was unknown but when she awoke as Battler she self-identified as a male Battler. This solves the issue (the fan-raised shipping issue albeit) of why the narratives dance around Tooya and Ikuko's relationship; because Tooya can't perform.


This can explain why Tooya was able to solve Umineko from just two stories. This can explain why Tooya knew so much about Kinzo (since Yasu inherited the position.) This can explain why Tooya was able to continue on with the stories... etc... etc...

いかが皆さん？Kylonはこの程度の推理が可能です！

... anyone? 8)

<watches the tumbleweeds roll by...>

[AuraTwilight]

What I'm aiming for is, 'The Eva Ushiromiya that returned from Rokkenjima is, in fact, Yasu.'

How the hell does a 19 year old pass for a middle-aged mother? And how does a 31 year old look so goddamn old on her deathbed? How do you fake yourself in a hospital where your lifesigns are being monitored? What motive and incentive does Yasu have for impersonating Eva, of all people?

There is no way she could've been both Eva and Ikuko, as Ikuko finds Battler pretty much immediately, and she would have to take care of Ange and Toya pretty much fulltime while running Eva's businesses (Until Ange is sent off to boarding school, of course).

Also, the Hachijou residence seems to be quite a drive from wherever Eva had been staying, judging by EP6's 1998 narrative.

This whole theory is based on the existence of Shkanon shenanigans (a person capable of playing the role of a nonexistent member of the opposite sex coupled with personality tricks) and Kinzo's title trick.

The difference here is that Shannon and Kanon had the same job, same social life, and same living space, had multiple people involved in their scheme, never had to commute from house to house or possibly even town to town, never had to fake deaths to be another person (er, until murders started happening lol), never have to impersonate a preexisting person, and most importantly never had to be in two places at once except for the family conference.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

How about this instead:

The Ushiromiya Tooya/Battler that we see... is actually YASU! Battler was the one who really died in the ocean and Beatrice-Yasu survived. But when she awoke she had no memories. When she recovered what she thought were memories, she had actually ended up recovering her narrative of what Battler was doing and what he was like.

Why does Ikuko mistake Yasu for Battler? Because Yasu's gender was unknown but when she awoke as Battler she self-identified as a male Battler. This solves the issue (the fan-raised shipping issue albeit) of why the narratives dance around Tooya and Ikuko's relationship; because Tooya can't perform.


This can explain why Tooya was able to solve Umineko from just two stories. This can explain why Tooya knew so much about Kinzo (since Yasu inherited the position.) This can explain why Tooya was able to continue on with the stories... etc... etc...

いかが皆さん？Kylonはこの程度の推理が可能です！

... anyone? 8)

<watches the tumbleweeds roll by...>

I've actually given this kind of theory some thought myself. It solves pretty much everything... but it just doesn't fit well thematically... and conflicts heavily with a lot of
what is presented.

EDIT:
Also, when they reunite, Touya's memories of Ange are vivid and accurate.

[Kealym]

What Wanderer said.

Though I'll also add that the idea of Yasu having survived the incident and then adopting a male persona would give Kanon's entire existence alot more resonance.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Episode 8 is pretty bad for it. In it Battler and Beatrice leave the island the morning of October 6. I'm not sure exactly what happened after that, because a little bit out to sea Beatrice disappears off the boat and then there's a special credit-roll-like dialogue between Battler and Beatrice... and with my Japanese I couldn't read it fast enough to follow it... it's the one nagging part I couldn't get.

My idea would be that scene is meta since Battler has no problems going on a boat. Umineko stressed quite a lot the fact that Battler and shaking boats aren't exactly in good terms so I thought that could be a hint the scene didn't really take place as it was depicted. Also there's the whole Beato and Battler drowned when we know Battler didn't drown and, if we assume Yasu survived, Beato didn't really drown either.
However my knowledge of the scene isn't first hand so, as I said, my theory is weak.

Originally Posted by Wanderer

I don't get this. What are you hoping to find?

A better way to know when black text is reliable.

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Problem: What's the narrative value in this?

It provides Meta Ange background. It also helps in building up the meeting between Meta Ange and Featherine and the plot of Ep 8 and give us some info.
It implies Ange disappeared at some point and was possibly assumed death, which in the real world might have pushed Toya to face his own fears and try to remember... I think it's also natural Toya would have wondered about Ange and what she was doing, willingly or unwillingly.
All the info we have about the future come from Ange's story, from her memory and her quest for the truth. I think this is one of the purposes of Ange's story existance.

Also, it makes possible to present Ange as a person with more than one future (dying on Rokkenjima, killing Amakusa and the captain on the boat, becoming a writer and later meeting up with Toya) because they would be mere speculations from Toya reflecting his fears and hopes.

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Also, I wasn't saying it was necessarily part of Alliance (at least not this time around).

Ops, sorry, I've misunderstood you.

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Well, except for the epilogue in the distant future, the Touya/Ikuko story ends right as Touya's memory is triggered by Ikuko mentioning what she read on the internet, so who knows.

*sighs* then it's all up to speculation, isn't it? *sighs*

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Well, to be honest my biggest doubt about Ikuko=Yasu isn't something anyone else even mentioned: It's that Ikuko, who hides her age, was very pleasantly surprised during their first conversation when she misinterpreted Touya's muttering of "18" to be a guess at her age. If she's Yasu, she shouldn't be that much older than 18.

You see why I complain about my theory being weak? Because I didn't know of this part. I knew Toya only remembered than he was 18 not that Ikuko thought he was talking about his age.

I can make some theories for this but I would really prefer to read the scene first so I could check there are no contraddictions...

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Episode 8 is pretty bad for it. In it Battler and Beatrice leave the island the morning of October 6. I'm not sure exactly what happened after that, because a little bit out to sea Beatrice disappears off the boat and then there's a special credit-roll-like dialogue between Battler and Beatrice... and with my Japanese I couldn't read it fast enough to follow it... it's the one nagging part I couldn't get.

I translated that part a while ago. Here it is again in case anybody might want to check.

Spoiler for Umineko 8 Ending:

Battler immediatly leaped into the sea.
That is why Battler made it in time.
He made it in time, so that he could still see the silouette of the wich.

The witch looked up to Battler and smiled softly.
He was not able to hear the words.
And yet he clearly understood them.

With all his might Battler tried to return an answer.
But all his words transformed into bubbles in the water.

I told you so, Battler.

Because I am a wicked witch, I will never be able to compensate for my sins.
Something like living is not the way to repay for them.

As the witch sunk deeper into the pitchblack darkness, Battler went after her with all his strength.

And so, ........ that hand ....... finally reached her ....

Foolish Battler.....
Though you were shown how to leave this island alive....., you are throwing this away?

...I will not let go of you.

Those feeling really make me happy.
But......I am one who dwells in illusions. And you are a human.
The worlds we have to return to are of a different kind.

I will return to the illusions.
And you better return to your own world as well.

Gradually the darkness around them began to grow thicker.
It became painful to breath and his head and ears started hurting.
Battler's fingers....very slowly began to soften their grip.

And in the end,
Both their finger...seperated.

And immediatly after...Battler went up, towards the world of light.
And the witch went down, towards the world of darkness...even greater powers tore those two apart.

The witch, seeing Battler's body floating towards the dazzling surface of the sea, was now at peace.
Farewell, Battler.
...And, thank you.

As she saw Battler's body off, as it became just a dot going towards the world of light...the witch gently closed her eyes.
And as she fell into the realm of Hades, she entrusted everything to the world of eternal solitude.

At that moment...she felt it.
Something that should not be.
Not when she had seen that Battler had long become just a dot on the far horizon.

Yet it was Battler.
It was Battler who had come chasing after the witch...

You think I'd let you escape? You are mine alone, my golden witch.

Stupid Battler......Stupid Battler......

If what you desire is Hades, let me fall along with you.
If it is the world of nothingness, let me vanish with you.

But, until the very last moment when we disappear...
...you are mine...

The two embraced each other tightly.
...now, even destiny was no longer aiming to tear those two apart.

Those two became one ... and they sank into Hades ...

And in a world of impenetrable darkess ... something softly shone.
It was a warm, golden glow.

It was a golden rose.

And gently...it arrived at a world covered by pure and innocent sand.
There, half blanketed with that white sand...was a small box.

Sleeping peacefully at the bottom of the silent sea, this was Beatrice's cat box.

And on it, softly...came dancing down the golden rose...

This is a story of the deep, deep bottom of the sea.
Within the deep, pitchblack darkness....
...it faintly shines, like the sleeping golden rose, a very gentle story.

I'd still say that this is a fairly good indicator that Yasu and all his creations died on that day, but I see how it is debatable, as the ending only speaks of "the witch" and not of a certain girl in general.

But there are two other scenes in the ending of Episode 8 (before the Tea Party and ????).
One is the scene where Featherine casts a golden flower to the ocean after Ikuko (on the press conference as Tôya) decided not to release Eva's diary to the public. She said that this would create so much doubt and unrest in the Rokkenjima fan community that after some time it would come to a rest. And while it might not die completely, at least it means a little rest for the dead.
And then Featherine cast out that rose and the narration was this:
"Featherine threw one single flower, a golden rose to the sea.
It was a parting gift*(1) to the peacefully sleeping cat box.

It was meant to carry the story of that golden rose...and to become a period*(2) for that long tale."

*(1): though I translated it as parting gift, the original word means something like "a tribute or an offering to the spirit of somebody who is about to depart to the netherworld".
*(2): in this case it means a full stop, an absolute end to a sentence or a piece.

I always read this as Ikuko actually rewriting how Tôya described Battler's escape from the island in order to give them a happy ending. She basically made it possible that Battler remains with Beatrice and becomes happy and still Battler's body makes it back to the world of the living. This is also nicely underlined in the following sequence on October 6th, where from the point he is floating upwards it is referred to as "Battler's body" and no longer Battler.

I don't know but somehow this scene would feel a little bit wrong if Ikuko was Yasu. Even though of course Ikuko=Featherin=Yasu is not necessarily true then, it's kind of weird for me to imagine that on the one hand she would love him enough to wish for such an ending and on the other hand to completely let him go. Though of course this is personal bias to a great deal.

The other scene is the moment when Ange has passed the gate and the bridging place between the capital of books (図書の都) and the world of Rokkenjima starts to crumble.
First it is that they have to close the door. It is especially mentioned by Featherine that this door was constructed so that it needs two people:
"Featherine: '...to close this door. ...Certainly, there is a certain manner when closing this door, right?!'
Evatrice: 'Yeah, that's right. ...the rule that this door can not be closed unless two people do it.'"
And it is not Battler and Featherine who close the door, it is Battler and Eva-Beatrice, who he definitely adresses as Aunt Eva, even asking her to take care of Ange in the future.

Also, when the capital and the world of Rokkenjima are splitting apart, there is another line that definitely mentions the owners of the Rokkenjima illusion:
"(speaking of how it seems like the world is crumbling)But that was not it.

Battler's and EVA's, the world of those two, was being cut off from the capital of books."
The world of Rokkenjima is definitely regarded as Battler's and Eva's world, Beatrice is merely a bystander in that sequence. She fullfilled her role when it came to posing the question wether it is all magic or all a trick. This, I think, is a strong hint towards Yasu actually not surviving the incident or at least not having anything to do with the illusion that Battler and Eva created after the incident.

Originally Posted by Renall

However, unless Japan had different trust laws, that transfer would more or less have to happen when Kinzo was alive.

It actually has to be done while he is alive. I read some information about inheritance laws in Japan and most of the time families handle it by parents buying their children things and giving them their property in form of gifts.
The problem is that the lowest inheritance tax is 10% which is for everything below 1.000.000Yen. If it surpasses 300.000.000Yen it is taxed as high as 50%.
Of course most people want to circumvent that tax and so they solve it by that manner of transfer.

This is also why it is so important for the Kinzô illusion to stand and another point why they could easily blackmail Krauss with that proposition. Basically everything would have been for naught if that actually came to light. Even the epitaph game would practically be worth nothing.
Also it is practically obvious that Krauss lost all of Kinzô's investments, so with everything said and done they would probably end up with nothing at all after taxes and debts are payed off. So finding the gold is especially important because it is outside of any legal mechanisms.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Also, the Hachijou residence seems to be quite a drive from wherever Eva had been staying, judging by EP6's 1998 narrative.

For this I had some fun and created a little map with my estimates of where each place would probably be:

Spoiler for map:

I estimated the place of the Hachijô residence by the only other ferry to Nijima except the one right at Tôkyô harbour. And considering that their drive there was said to have taken some time, I'd assume that it is reasonable to assume it is located around Shimoda. By car it would take between 3 and 4 hours from Tôkyô to Shimoda.
This would also make it less unlikely that Battler was cast to the shore close to Ikuko's residence.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Renall

Not exactly. More like a claim that she was somehow responsible for his death. You'd have to prove it was more likely than not that she did something. Being the sole survivor of a massive explosion might well be suggestive, though it may still not meet the standard.

As if she were an accomplice of the criminal though she didn't shot him?

Originally Posted by Renall

You can generally attach all sorts of conditions to your will (at least in America),

Oh, so it's different from here. Here you can only dispose freely of a part of your possession. The rest HAD to go to your natural heirs. no matter if you want it or not so at best I think Kinzo could have left Yasu 1 fifth of the inheritance (and this assuming he wasn't to leave anything to Genji or Kumasawa, otherwise Yasu's portion would have gotten even smaller). Probably less, surely not more (the percentage vary according to who are the legal heirs so I'm not exactly sure how much of the inheritance was for Kinzo to freely use).
Although it would have been annoying for the siblings to give up to such a big portion they would still inherit a big amount.

Originally Posted by Renall

First of all, the gold is not legally possible to pass down to anyone. Kinzo doesn't legally own it, because it shouldn't even exist, and if it did exist, it probably belongs to the Italian or German or Japanese or American government. So the epitaph providing the gold is obviously a non-estate transaction. Naturally, if anyone else knew about the stuff they'd tell the cops outright. Mostly out of spite. So nobody gets the gold unless it's kept absolutely secret.

I'm not 100% sure but I think here we would have a way to legally own it.
All Kinzo would have to do is to declare to the police he had incidentally 'found' the gold once he bought Rokkenjima. If no one can counter his claim showing he is the legittimate owner or that he had warned the police he was missing some gold, after a while it would be assumed the real owner gave up on his ownership of the gold and this would make Kinzo the legittimate new owner. Kinzo should probably have to pay taxes about it but this would be all.

Of course pre requisites would be: Japan having the same laws as us, the Italian government were to assume the gold had gone lost or have no idea it existed so it couldn't claim it and that the Japanese government had no idea what happened on Rokkenjima... an idea that can be supported by the fact they sold to Kinzo an island with a military base and lot of explosive.

Damn, it's difficult to reason on legal matters when laws are different... -_-

Originally Posted by Renall

Really, there's no way that Kinzo can get away with any of this. He can't "unofficially" transfer everything to anyone because it won't have legal weight over his will (and I assume he has an ordinary will, or did at one point or other). He can't edit his will unless he has a specific person in mind. So "the guy who solves the epitaph" probably wouldn't stand up in court (it's impossible to prove you solved it first anyway). But you could say "Yasu solved the epitaph, so in my will I now leave everything to Yasu."

That will would be valid, but there's no way Krauss and his siblings will let that stand. They'll sue, and probably argue that Kinzo wasn't in his right mind toward the end of his life. Reclusiveness, crying constantly over a "witch," occult fascination... if I'm the Ushiromiya Group's lawyers, I'm liking those odds. If the will gets thrown out, they'd probably revert to an earlier will (probably a standard will leaving everything to his wife and/or surviving children and grandchildren). If all his wills are invalid, or he never had any others, then Japanese intestate law would hold. I don't know how that works but my guess is everything he owns would be split among his children in a contentious legal battle over individual assets.
Oh, and Yasu would theoretically get a stake in the estate as Kinzo's fifth child... if she can prove it. Good luck with that. I suppose a DNA test would prove Kinzo's paternity (or not) though...

Did Ryukishi think of any of this? Probably not beyond "there is no way the siblings would accept that, unless paid off immediately."

You're probably right, he likely didn't bother to think at this too deeply.

Now, is it okay to discuss about Yasu's position in the Rokkenjima incident?

Assuming she only sent the letter in which she challenged the family to solve the epitaph and then had the discussion with the siblings in Ep 7 Tea Party, can she be held accountable for something?

True, she said she would have killed them all if they didn't solve the epitaph but in the end she didn't (at least she didn't in Ep 7 Tea Party).

It's also true she showed them the guns and how the bomb worked but she didn't really suggest them to chot each other.

So, if Yasu had survived to the 'incident', would the police still be able to accuse her of something? Would Eva or any of the victims' relatives?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

As if she were an accomplice of the criminal though she didn't shot him?

For Wrongful Death they'd argue something Eva did killed him, more or less. The argument I'd make here is that she probably deliberately set off the explosion, killing Nanjo.

She can counter that he was already dead, of course, but then it doesn't look so good for her that he just happens to be dead and she just happens to be the sole survivor.

I'm not 100% sure but I think here we would have a way to legally own it.

Extremely unlikely. Wartime gold is going to be one of two things:

• Part of a country's money supply, which is very likely if it had the stamp of the North Italian government.
• Illegally appropriated in the first place, particularly if the gold is actually German in origin.

In either case it's the property of the government or of private citizens from another government who lost it to illegal seizure.

The gold was then transferred by a military operation and placed in the custody of an allied military. There's really no way it ever legally and technically left the possession of the Japanese government, so the Japanese government is obligated to return it (to Italy or to whoever it was stolen from in Europe) and they don't need Kinzo's permission to do it. That's part of why he had to alter the stamp and hide it.

The best argument you could make is that the gold belonged to the RSI and was transferred to the government of Imperial Japan. Neither of those nations still exist, replaced by the Republic of Italy and State of Japan respectively. This argument, however, doesn't really square with generally accepted international law. For all intents and purposes, Italy assumed the assets and debts of Northern Italy at the end of WW2 and the terms of surrender for Japan pretty much officially kept them the same entity, just with a new Constitution. And none of that matters if the gold was stolen from private citizens, because then it didn't actually belong to the RSI in the first place.

If it does belong to private citizens, though, Kinzo might be able to keep it in fact while a massive lawsuit happens. This assumes the Japanese government doesn't care to step in. Basically the people it was taken from in Europe (or their heirs) would have to go sue Kinzo, which probably wouldn't come to much. Kinzo technically wouldn't be able to use the gold while it's tied up in court proceedings, but he may still be able to use it as collateral if Japanese lenders think the chance of the gold actually going back to Europe is low (and it probably would be).

Now, is it okay to discuss about Yasu's position in the Rokkenjima incident?

Assuming she only sent the letter in which she challenged the family to solve the epitaph and then had the discussion with the siblings in Ep 7 Tea Party, can she be held accountable for something?

True, she said she would have killed them all if they didn't solve the epitaph but in the end she didn't (at least she didn't in Ep 7 Tea Party).

It's also true she showed them the guns and how the bomb worked but she didn't really suggest them to chot each other.

So, if Yasu had survived to the 'incident', would the police still be able to accuse her of something? Would Eva or any of the victims' relatives?

It depends on what they saw. Let's take the ep7 Tea Party as an example, so that Eva is a witness.

Yasu sends a letter threatening the family if they don't solve the epitaph. This could be argue to be a game, but it could also be a threat if somebody honestly thought she'd do it. She then showed them the bomb and gave them the guns. At this point, the adults are the ones committing the actual murders.

Basically, Eva could probably get her charged as an accessory, and I suppose you could make a case for murder itself if Eva believes Yasu set the bomb.

It's not a hard case to make:

• Yasu was the only person with foreknowledge of the bomb.
• She confessed to the adults that she intended to set it off, which means she premeditated its use.
• She was aware that it would kill everyone and hadn't planned to warn anyone.

Now if everyone happened to be dead before that, you might try to argue that Yasu didn't commit murder. However, Eva never saw Battler again so at the very least she'd believe Battler was killed in the explosion.

Even if that weren't provable, Eva can easily argue to a prosecutor that Yasu attempted to murder her with the bomb. It failed, because Eva found out about it and fled, but she clearly intended to kill Eva and took a step to try to kill Eva by arming the bomb.

Of course if you're Yasu's attorney you have several easy arguments here:

• What bomb? I don't see any physical evidence of a bomb. Oh, there's evidence of an explosion, but what bomb?
• Eva's story about the bomb having an arming mechanism and Yasu knowing about it is unsubstantiated by other evidence. For example, did Yasu have a diary off-island that mentioned it? If not, it's going to be hard to prove premeditation beyond a reasonable doubt. Maybe there was a bomb, but isn't it possible no one knew about it and it went off accidentally?
• Yasu may have committed assault or acted recklessly, but she didn't actually kill anyone by Eva's own story and admitted she was abandoning her plan. By telling Eva about the bomb arming mechanism, she gave her the option to disarm it. Why didn't she?
• How do we know Eva didn't murder everyone and set the bomb off herself? She's not a credible witness because she gained a significant windfall from the death of her entire family (well, not really, but your lawyer will argue that!). Besides, she flat-out admitted in her story to shooting at least two people. It may have been self-defense, but there's no evidence and no other witnesses to substantiate that.

So I think if Yasu were charged with anything it'd be Attempted Murder and she'd be found Not Guilty. You could charge her with lesser things (endangerment possibly, failure to warn about a hazardous condition, accessory to some other crime), but the only ones I can see sticking are ones that arise from the following two acts:

• Knowing the island sat over something dangerously explosive and doing nothing to warn everyone about it in a timely manner.
• Making threats to the family, putting them in fear of harm, then supplying them with guns.

You could go to jail for several years for these things, but I don't think either gets you a life sentence unless you can successfully argue giving out the guns made you an accessory to murder. And Eva's own account would suggest she lacked the requisite intent for that.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

You see why I complain about my theory being weak? Because I didn't know of this part. I knew Toya only remembered than he was 18 not that Ikuko thought he was talking about his age.

Well, it was a short-lived misunderstanding apparently inserted for a little humor; he promptly told her what he really meant.

Originally Posted by haguruma

I translated that part a while ago. Here it is again in case anybody might want to check.

Spoiler for Umineko 8 Ending:

Battler immediatly leaped into the sea.
That is why Battler made it in time.
He made it in time, so that he could still see the silouette of the wich.

The witch looked up to Battler and smiled softly.
He was not able to hear the words.
And yet he clearly understood them.

With all his might Battler tried to return an answer.
But all his words transformed into bubbles in the water.

I told you so, Battler.

Because I am a wicked witch, I will never be able to compensate for my sins.
Something like living is not the way to repay for them.

As the witch sunk deeper into the pitchblack darkness, Battler went after her with all his strength.

And so, ........ that hand ....... finally reached her ....

Foolish Battler.....
Though you were shown how to leave this island alive....., you are throwing this away?

...I will not let go of you.

Those feeling really make me happy.
But......I am one who dwells in illusions. And you are a human.
The worlds we have to return to are of a different kind.

I will return to the illusions.
And you better return to your own world as well.

Gradually the darkness around them began to grow thicker.
It became painful to breath and his head and ears started hurting.
Battler's fingers....very slowly began to soften their grip.

And in the end,
Both their finger...seperated.

And immediatly after...Battler went up, towards the world of light.
And the witch went down, towards the world of darkness...even greater powers tore those two apart.

The witch, seeing Battler's body floating towards the dazzling surface of the sea, was now at peace.
Farewell, Battler.
...And, thank you.

As she saw Battler's body off, as it became just a dot going towards the world of light...the witch gently closed her eyes.
And as she fell into the realm of Hades, she entrusted everything to the world of eternal solitude.

At that moment...she felt it.
Something that should not be.
Not when she had seen that Battler had long become just a dot on the far horizon.

Yet it was Battler.
It was Battler who had come chasing after the witch...

You think I'd let you escape? You are mine alone, my golden witch.

Stupid Battler......Stupid Battler......

If what you desire is Hades, let me fall along with you.
If it is the world of nothingness, let me vanish with you.

But, until the very last moment when we disappear...
...you are mine...

The two embraced each other tightly.
...now, even destiny was no longer aiming to tear those two apart.

Those two became one ... and they sank into Hades ...

And in a world of impenetrable darkess ... something softly shone.
It was a warm, golden glow.

It was a golden rose.

And gently...it arrived at a world covered by pure and innocent sand.
There, half blanketed with that white sand...was a small box.

Sleeping peacefully at the bottom of the silent sea, this was Beatrice's cat box.

And on it, softly...came dancing down the golden rose...

This is a story of the deep, deep bottom of the sea.
Within the deep, pitchblack darkness....
...it faintly shines, like the sleeping golden rose, a very gentle story.

I'd still say that this is a fairly good indicator that Yasu and all his creations died on that day, but I see how it is debatable, as the ending only speaks of "the witch" and not of a certain girl in general.

Thank you much for this. And yes, it's very debatable what this scene means; it's just so chalk-full of metaphor.

Originally Posted by haguruma

And then Featherine cast out that rose and the narration was this:
"Featherine threw one single flower, a golden rose to the sea.
It was a parting gift*(1) to the peacefully sleeping cat box.

It was meant to carry the story of that golden rose...and to become a period*(2) for that long tale."

I always read this as Ikuko actually rewriting how Tôya described Battler's escape from the island in order to give them a happy ending. She basically made it possible that Battler remains with Beatrice and becomes happy and still Battler's body makes it back to the world of the living. This is also nicely underlined in the following sequence on October 6th, where from the point he is floating upwards it is referred to as "Battler's body" and no longer Battler.

Seems like a sensible interpretation to me.

Originally Posted by haguruma

I don't know but somehow this scene would feel a little bit wrong if Ikuko was Yasu. Even though of course Ikuko=Featherin=Yasu is not necessarily true then, it's kind of weird for me to imagine that on the one hand she would love him enough to wish for such an ending and on the other hand to completely let him go. Though of course this is personal bias to a great deal.

If Ikuko=Yasu, she undoubtedly faced a lot of really difficult choices in her life with Touya. The meta-world actually makes a lot of sense when viewed this way. Also, the original meta-Beatrice's death over episodes 4-5 takes on an interesting tenor and could explain a shift in Ikuko.

Originally Posted by haguruma

The other scene is the moment when Ange has passed the gate and the bridging place between the capital of books (図書の都) and the world of Rokkenjima starts to crumble.
First it is that they have to close the door. It is especially mentioned by Featherine that this door was constructed so that it needs two people:
"Featherine: '...to close this door. ...Certainly, there is a certain manner when closing this door, right?!'
Evatrice: 'Yeah, that's right. ...the rule that this door can not be closed unless two people do it.'"
And it is not Battler and Featherine who close the door, it is Battler and Eva-Beatrice, who he definitely adresses as Aunt Eva, even asking her to take care of Ange in the future.

It's still interesting that Featherine knows this (but I guess Ikuko's Featherine persona is supposed to know everything). Anyway, there is the strong connection with Ange here, and for that reason it doesn't make a lick of emotional sense for Featherine/Ikuko to be a part of the decision regardless; the only people who had a stake in Ange's future still alive after the incident were Battler and Eva.

And just a side comment- Evatrice was pretty awesome in episode 8. And that scene where Ange called Eva "mom" really got me...

Originally Posted by haguruma

Also, when the capital and the world of Rokkenjima are splitting apart, there is another line that definitely mentions the owners of the Rokkenjima illusion:
"(speaking of how it seems like the world is crumbling)But that was not it.

Battler's and EVA's, the world of those two, was being cut off from the capital of books."
The world of Rokkenjima is definitely regarded as Battler's and Eva's world, Beatrice is merely a bystander in that sequence. She fullfilled her role when it came to posing the question wether it is all magic or all a trick. This, I think, is a strong hint towards Yasu actually not surviving the incident or at least not having anything to do with the illusion that Battler and Eva created after the incident.

Well, Beatrice was no longer gamemaster at this point (even though she was in at least 2 games written post incident). I suppose it all comes down to the meaning of Beatrice in the meta world, and her death in the meta world. Apparently, Battler wasn't the gamemaster in some of the stories that he (Touya) wrote, but became gamemaster later. So we really only have a few choices:

• Beatrice as gamemaster in episodes 3-4 was completely a meta-projection of Touya's. It was an extremely accurate meta-projection that somehow had it's own motivation which Touya himself both understood (meta-Beatrice) and didn't (meta-Battler).
• Beatrice as gamemaster in episodes 3-4 was actually representative of an active force external of Touya's mind. For this Ikuko=Yasu makes a lot of sense.

[Ayu-ayu]

One observation, forgive me if someone else has noted it before. While most folks have commented on the meaning of Ikuko, what about this:

Yasu > can be romanized as "Yas" to drop the "u"* > YAShiro Ikuko (romanized). This only works in romaji, but we know how R07 is with that sort of thing...


(* in fact, "YAS" is how the Gundam character designer YASUhiko Yoshikazu signs his name with romaji characters)

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

So we really only have a few choices:

• Beatrice as gamemaster in episodes 3-4 was completely a meta-projection of Touya's. It was an extremely accurate meta-projection that somehow had it's own motivation which Touya himself both understood (meta-Beatrice) and didn't (meta-Battler).
• Beatrice as gamemaster in episodes 3-4 was actually representative of an active force external of Touya's mind. For this Ikuko=Yasu makes a lot of sense.

Well regarding this I'd argue for option number 1.
My reason for that is, that Beatrice is portrayed as dying on October 6th 1986. Therefore Ikuko providing her as a gamemaster in the future seems strange when it is actually mentioned that things that died once cannot be revived in the same form again. Wether Yasu actually lost her memory and became Ikuko (which is unreasonable because she'd need knowledge of her possibilities to create Ikuko) or cast Beatrice away, both would mean a definitive death of her Beatrice persona.
I think it is still mentionable that the gamemaster Beatrice in EP3 and 4 was slightly different in her behaviour compared to EP1 and 2. She actually started caring and the main antagonists are no longer her but Eva-Beatrice and Goldsmith respectively. Though she is still portrayed as controlling the field, she no longer acts as a controlling force on the field (in EP3 she is even portrayed as losing controll of her powers). So my idea is still that meta-Beatrice is just a projection of what Tôya pieced together from the message bottles and the memory he had of possible encounters with Yasu on the island. It is basically a disguise for the memories within him, which are best personified by the antagonist in the stories that triggered the memory in the first place. Battler probably has all necessary knowledge, Tôya just can't access them.

Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu

Yasu > can be romanized as "Yas" to drop the "u"* > YAShiro Ikuko (romanized). This only works in romaji, but we know how R07 is with that sort of thing...

I don't think this would actually work in this case, as the name's official reading is given as Hachijô and not Yashiro. I think it is even attached with Ruby at some point in the novel during EP6.

[Jan-Poo]

Needless to say it, I agree with Haguruma.
Beatrice is dead, she should remain dead. If she were still alive, all the good dramatic scenes would turn into a bad taste joke.

BTW nice avatar of Jessica Beatrice Fletcher.

[Ayu-ayu]

Originally Posted by haguruma

I don't think this would actually work in this case, as the name's official reading is given as Hachijô and not Yashiro. I think it is even attached with Ruby at some point in the novel during EP6.

Right, I know Hachijô is the official reading (but should have clarified that point, thanks), but the more common reading of the kanji outside the context of the narrative is Yashiro and is thus a sort of unvoiced subtext to the name. I originally just figured that was a nod to Oyashiro, naturally.

Okay, YAShiro is probably a stretch, I admit, but I wouldn't put it past Kinz...er, Ryuukishi07.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Well, it was a short-lived misunderstanding apparently inserted for a little humor; he promptly told her what he really meant.

Oh, okay.

Originally Posted by Wanderer

If Ikuko=Yasu, she undoubtedly faced a lot of really difficult choices in her life with Touya. The meta-world actually makes a lot of sense when viewed this way. Also, the original meta-Beatrice's death over episodes 4-5 takes on an interesting tenor and could explain a shift in Ikuko.

*nods* I agree. Her situation shouldn't have been easy.

Originally Posted by Wanderer

It's still interesting that Featherine knows this (but I guess Ikuko's Featherine persona is supposed to know everything).

... I might have misunderstand you, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Featherine is Ikuko's Featherine persona, just a meta character Toya created and that he shaped as similar to Ikuko.
That's because I tend to think at the meta world like at something Toya created, willingly or unwillingly in his mind. The same for me applies for all the meta characters.

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Anyway, there is the strong connection with Ange here, and for that reason it doesn't make a lick of emotional sense for Featherine/Ikuko to be a part of the decision regardless; the only people who had a stake in Ange's future still alive after the incident were Battler and Eva.

*nods* On this I agree

Originally Posted by Wanderer

And just a side comment- Evatrice was pretty awesome in episode 8. And that scene where Ange called Eva "mom" really got me...

I'm sure it was an awesome moment but for a second reading it reminded me of the last time someone called 'mom' a woman that shouldn't have been his mother. Turned out she was his mother. Though I doubt that's Ange's case.

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Well, Beatrice was no longer gamemaster at this point (even though she was in at least 2 games written post incident). I suppose it all comes down to the meaning of Beatrice in the meta world, and her death in the meta world. Apparently, Battler wasn't the gamemaster in some of the stories that he (Touya) wrote, but became gamemaster later. So we really only have a few choices:

• Beatrice as gamemaster in episodes 3-4 was completely a meta-projection of Touya's. It was an extremely accurate meta-projection that somehow had it's own motivation which Touya himself both understood (meta-Beatrice) and didn't (meta-Battler).
• Beatrice as gamemaster in episodes 3-4 was actually representative of an active force external of Touya's mind. For this Ikuko=Yasu makes a lot of sense.

Can I go for a theory in between?

As I said I tend to consider the meta characters as Toya's creations, which means to me Beatrice is also something he mostly made up.
After all how many chances to interact with Beatrice Battler might have had on Rokkenjima?

He saw her portrait for sure but, apart from this?

How much time he spent with Yasu as Beatrice in Rokkenjima Prime and how did Yasu behave? Ep 7 presents a pretty quiet Beatrice when she've to deal with the real world (meeting Kinzo and in the Tea Party).
Ep 4 has a slightly more vivacious one, though she lost her vivacity pretty soon.

Also, no matter how Beatrice acted in Rokkenjima when and if Battler met her, it's enterely possible he doesn't remember it, or that he doesn't remember it well enough to build his meta Beatrice so he created one that might not even resemble that much in behaviour the original one.

So Toya created Meta Beatrice as well as Meta Battler while reading the message bottles, using Meta Beatrice as a representation for 'his enemy/the culprit/the mastermind behind the tragedy/someone who know what had happened'.

However we get at Ep 3.
Ep 3 was likely built in parallel with the lavoration of Banquet. If banquet was written by him and Ikuko, Ikuko's presence, the mere talking with her, discussing stuffs, likely influenced Toya's meta world and this resulted in him unconsciously changing Meta Beatrice.

She's not anymore the sole culprit, she has nice sides, she has something that makes her sad, he can get along with her.

In short for me Beatrice as gamemaster in episodes 3-4 is completely a meta-projection of Touya's but, while dealing with her, he gets slowly influenced by an external element, Ikuko. In short I think both your theories work. Toya created her but dealing with Ikuko too had a role in her creation.


hum... I fear I've explained it in a horrible manner so if it's too confusing just warn me and I'll try to explain it better.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Renall

For Wrongful Death they'd argue something Eva did killed him, more or less. The argument I'd make here is that she probably deliberately set off the explosion, killing Nanjo.

She can counter that he was already dead, of course, but then it doesn't look so good for her that he just happens to be dead and she just happens to be the sole survivor.Extremely unlikely.

Oh, okay.

Originally Posted by Renall

Wartime gold is going to be one of two things:

• Part of a country's money supply, which is very likely if it had the stamp of the North Italian government.
• Illegally appropriated in the first place, particularly if the gold is actually German in origin.

In either case it's the property of the government or of private citizens from another government who lost it to illegal seizure.

Hum, no, the idea was to make the gold looks as if it wasn't wartime gold. Kinzo buys Rokkenjima around 1957 (by then American forces weren't around anymore). He could have argued he found the gold after buying the island and therefore reported it to the autorities only right then (though he likely began to illegally use it earlier).

Evidently whoever sold him the island had no idea it sat on a military bases with explosive in... or if he knew agreed in selling it to Kinzo so he could cover up this fact. Accepting he randomly found gold someone unknown accidentally dropped on Rokkenjima might have been part of the agreement.

At least... that was my theory but Japanese law might not agree with it.

Originally Posted by Renall

It depends on what they saw. Let's take the ep7 Tea Party as an example, so that Eva is a witness.

Yasu sends a letter threatening the family if they don't solve the epitaph. This could be argue to be a game, but it could also be a threat if somebody honestly thought she'd do it. She then showed them the bomb and gave them the guns. At this point, the adults are the ones committing the actual murders.

Basically, Eva could probably get her charged as an accessory, and I suppose you could make a case for murder itself if Eva believes Yasu set the bomb.

It's not a hard case to make:

• Yasu was the only person with foreknowledge of the bomb.
• She confessed to the adults that she intended to set it off, which means she premeditated its use.
• She was aware that it would kill everyone and hadn't planned to warn anyone.

Now if everyone happened to be dead before that, you might try to argue that Yasu didn't commit murder. However, Eva never saw Battler again so at the very least she'd believe Battler was killed in the explosion.

Even if that weren't provable, Eva can easily argue to a prosecutor that Yasu attempted to murder her with the bomb. It failed, because Eva found out about it and fled, but she clearly intended to kill Eva and took a step to try to kill Eva by arming the bomb.

Of course if you're Yasu's attorney you have several easy arguments here:

• What bomb? I don't see any physical evidence of a bomb. Oh, there's evidence of an explosion, but what bomb?

• LOL I love this argument. I get how it could work but still... LOL
  
  

  Originally Posted by Renall

  Eva's story about the bomb having an arming mechanism and Yasu knowing about it is unsubstantiated by other evidence. For example, did Yasu have a diary off-island that mentioned it? If not, it's going to be hard to prove premeditation beyond a reasonable doubt. Maybe there was a bomb, but isn't it possible no one knew about it and it went off accidentally?

  Yasu may have committed assault or acted recklessly, but she didn't actually kill anyone by Eva's own story and admitted she was abandoning her plan. By telling Eva about the bomb arming mechanism, she gave her the option to disarm it. Why didn't she?

  How do we know Eva didn't murder everyone and set the bomb off herself? She's not a credible witness because she gained a significant windfall from the death of her entire family (well, not really, but your lawyer will argue that!). Besides, she flat-out admitted in her story to shooting at least two people. It may have been self-defense, but there's no evidence and no other witnesses to substantiate that.

Originally Posted by Renall

So I think if Yasu were charged with anything it'd be Attempted Murder and she'd be found Not Guilty.

Okay, thank you!

Originally Posted by Renall

You could charge her with lesser things (endangerment possibly, failure to warn about a hazardous condition, accessory to some other crime), but the only ones I can see sticking are ones that arise from the following two acts:

• Knowing the island sat over something dangerously explosive and doing nothing to warn everyone about it in a timely manner.
• Making threats to the family, putting them in fear of harm, then supplying them with guns.

You could go to jail for several years for these things, but I don't think either gets you a life sentence unless you can successfully argue giving out the guns made you an accessory to murder. And Eva's own account would suggest she lacked the requisite intent for that.

So if Eva would try to switch all the blame on Yasu she would risk to have more troubles than gain... I see...

Damn, I can't really picture if she would risk it or not...

Any idea about how Yasu could start working to such a young age and seemed to believe he could drop working for the Ushiromiya at age 13 and live on her own? Because it seemed pretty unbelievable when I read it (though children living on their own is a thing pretty common in manga and anime...)

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Needless to say it, I agree with Haguruma.
Beatrice is dead, she should remain dead. If she were still alive, all the good dramatic scenes would turn into a bad taste joke.

Well, technically Beatrice is dead even if you believe that Yasu's body is alive.

As far as I'm involved the Beatrices are:
- the one Yasu created and that she apparently put to eternal sleep
- the one 'revived' by the witch hunters and that live closed in the catbox and that's as good as dead
- the Meta Beatrices Toya created and that exist only in his mind (Beatrice the game master, Beatrice the elder, Moe Beatrice)
(- yes, we've Beatrice Castiglioni and her daughter too but I assume no one cares about them in this discussion)

Sure, it can be argued that if Yasu's body is alive and she's not suffering amnesia the fact that the Beatrice persona is dead is meaningless.

However:

From Battler's point of view the Yasu he knew when he was a child and Ikuko likely aren't the same persona. It was implied Shannon had changed in those 6 years not only in body but also in behaviour as it was natural. Likely the Rokkenjima incident and the fact that she decided to take another identity changed her further so, as far as Battler is involved the Shannon he loved as a child is dead... and this can be worth sadness, even if he were to fall in love with Ikuko (and I'm not sure if he loves her or they are just friends and partners in work...)

From Yasu's point of view she gave up on Beatrice, her behaviour and everything. She started a new life and buried the old one. So again, Beatrice is dead and it can be worth of sadness because a part of her life is gone.

Now, I understand your point of view also. Real death should be more dramatic than a persona's death so telling us 'yes, someone died and that's sad but it was just a persona and not a real person' doesn't quite sound right.

Umineko however seems to pay more attention to personas than real people so this can cause Umineko's sense of drama to be different from ours without meaning for it to be a bad taste jokes. At least in intention (since I personally go annoyed every time I read Shannon is dead or Kanon is dead when their body is still alive and kicking I understand how seeing Beatrice is dead when her body is actually not could be annoying).

In short, I wouldn't put past Ryukishi to show us a dramatic scene in which Beatrice died to merely mean that the Beatrice persona died.

Actually I would expect him to do exactly this if he were to depict the death of the Beatrice's persona... though I still understand how it can be annoying...

[Jan-Poo]

You are missing a particular:

That Beatrice is dead and can't possibly be revived.

As long as the original persona is still alive, that Beatrice can be revived anytime.
Another person can revive Beatrice and in fact Tohya did, but the Beatrice is permanently dead.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

You are missing a particular:

That Beatrice is dead and can't possibly be revived.

As long as the original persona is still alive, that Beatrice can be revived anytime.
Another person can revive Beatrice and in fact Tohya did, but the Beatrice is permanently dead.

Yeah that would be as stupid as Battler surviving, but having amnesia... wait a second...

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Renall

Yeah that would be as stupid as Battler surviving, but having amnesia... wait a second...

*nods* Exactly my point.

I guess Ryukishi meant that the Beatrice Persona can't be revived anymore for (insert random reason here).

Basically, missing what Yasu would judge the main condition for Beatrice's existence she can't resurrect her, the same way Maria theoretically couldn't resurrect Sakutaro.

To be plausible the condition for Beatrice's existence should be a bit more complex than Sakutaro's since, once Ange provided another vessel, Sakutaro was revived.

I'm not saying it's right or fair toward the readers just that is what Umineko had done over and over. I've gotten so used to it not only I woudln't be surprised in the slightest if this were officially confirmed as true but I'm willing to bet on it.