[MANGA] Bleach Chapter 467 Discussion

[Haak]

Originally Posted by kakakka

Might be difference in translation

*facepalm* God I'm such a douche. I didn't think to check past Aizen exiting FKT. Thanks for that.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Langus

Whenever I think of Urahara I'm reminded of the famous words "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

I see some validity in peoples' assessment of him as essentially good. He hasn't really done anything malevolent. I mean sure, he released a psychopath from prison and created a device powerful enough to destroy SS. And there was that whole thing about using Rukia as a glorified pack horse to hide the hougyoku, regardless of the impact it would have on her. But it was all done with the best of intentions so that doesn't make him one of the bad guys. *tongue firmly in cheek*

The Maggot's Nest specifically said to be for people who haven't actually done anything wrong, but deemed potentially dangerous. Mayuri wasn't a criminal before Urahara released him. Furthermore, Mayuri has proven his usefulness to the heroes many, many times. The guy's sick in the head for sure, but his brilliant mind has proven essential and saved many lives. So Urahara basically released someone, who if continued to be left in a cell, could've escaped (unless you believe the Maggot's Nest could've held Mayuri that long) to become one of the most dangerous people in Soul Society and put him in a position where his passion for science could actually be put to some good.

As for putting the hougyoku in Rukia...yeah, that was pretty heartless, I mean, painlessly inserting a orb that is completely harmless to the body aside from the horrible side effect of granting its host's deepest desires is the work of a sadist. The fact that he did it to keep it out of the hands of a madman does nothing to excuse that type of cruelty.

I think Urahara's genius gives him an almost child-like ignorance when it comes to exploring and developing new technologies. Unfortunately, it is exactly that ignorance that makes him so dangerous. He doesn't consider the greater impact of his research, or what negative lasting effects it might have. He's only interested in the outcome - from a purely scientific standpoint.

I wouldn't say that. It's true he underestimated how powerful the hougyoku would actually become. But he actually tried to destroy it when he discovered how powerful it was and only hid it in Rukia when he found it couldn't be destroyed. Even then, he developed a way to painlessly extract the orb with no damage to the host.

Urahara's not shown to have any of the "mad scientist" qualities Mayuri and Aizen have. All his research shown to have positive, useful applications and none of them show disregard for human life or safety. The one experiment that got out of control, the hougyoku, he actually took responsibility for and tried to see that it stayed out of the wrong hands.

Urahara is strange and mysterious, which are traits typical of a mad scientist. But how he goes about science is actually anything but.

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

As for putting the hougyoku in Rukia...yeah, that was pretty heartless, I mean, painlessly inserting a orb that is completely harmless to the body aside from the horrible side effect of granting its host's deepest desires is the work of a sadist.

First off, I'm pretty sure he didn't know it could grant a person's desires at the time he gave it to Rukia since that seems to be Aizen who discovered it's true ability first. So it's not as if we can praise him for knowingly giving Rukia a magic wishing stone. Secondly, what was heartless about the whole thing was that Urahara's scheme involved throwing away Rukia's life as a shinigami without her consent. Granted, it may have been for a greater good, but I'm sure there had to be better ways to go about it. For instance, why not just seal the hougyoku inside a mod soul and let the mod soul live out a life as a human within the specially made gigai he created? Was there any particular purpose behind getting her involved? Especially if you stop to consider how well Urahara should have known soul society operates. In other words, he should have suspected that soul society was eventually going to try to bring back the shinigami who's spent too much time in the world of the living. Therefore, he should have known all along that if he really wanted to seal the hougyoku inside a soul, he should've attached it to a being who wouldn't be targeted by Soul Society. It might've also been better to attach it to the soul of a being who's life wouldn't be drastically impacted (or changed) upon remaining human. Or he could've picked the most noblest option by using himself as the subject instead of Rukia. In any case it was a rather silly move from start.

Ultimately, I don't think Urahara's evil. However, if I had to accuse him of anything, I'd say that perhaps he doesn't always think things through perfectly. But then again, no one's perfect--not even Urahara. And hindsight's 20/20.

*edit*
the thread for 467 has been created here. Once spoilers have been released, please direct relevant discussions regarding the upcoming chapter to the appropriate thread.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by sayde

First off, I'm pretty sure he didn't know it could grant a person's desires at the time he gave it to Rukia since that seems to be Aizen who discovered it's true ability first. So it's not as if we can praise him for knowingly giving Rukia a magic wishing stone.

I wasn't trying to say that the hougyoku was a gift. Urahara sealed the hougykou and thought it was inert when he sealed it in Rukia. However, it's not like he strapped her down and put a bomb inside her. He slipped the orb unknowingly, and we've seen the orb doesn't cause pain or ill side-effects for the host. Rukia could live without ever knowing anything was sealed inside her body.

Secondly, what was heartless about the whole thing was that Urahara's scheme involved throwing away Rukia's life as a shinigami without her consent. Granted, it may have been for a greater good, but I'm sure there had to be better ways to go about it. For instance, why not just seal the hougyoku inside a mod soul and let the mod soul live out a life as a human within the specially made gigai he created?

We don't know if the hougykou can even be sealed in an artificial soul, but it even if it could, all mod souls come from soul society (Urahara doesn't make them) and they're all programmed and can be tracked by Soul Society. Urahara knew Aizen was searching for the hougyoku and that if Rukia remained a shinigami, it would only be a matter of time before she was found. The only way she could remain safe was to go totally incognito in the living world. If Aizen found her, not only would he have gotten the hougyoku, but he would've killed Rukia because he tends to kill people he feels aren't useful anymore. So yeah, it seems a little tough on Rukia but hardly inhumane since it was for her benefit as well as SS.

And when you consider her own brother was going to see her executed, well, Urahara comes off looking like a saint.

Was there any particular purpose behind getting her involved? Especially if you stop to consider how well Urahara should have known soul society operates. In other words, he should have suspected that soul society was eventually going to try to bring back the shinigami who's spent too much time in the world of the living.

No. That wasn't standard SS rules. Normally, Rukia would've lost her powers and become undetectable long before SS sent anyone. The reason they came after her so soon was because Aizen had killed Central 46 and was giving orders posed as them.

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

We don't know if the hougykou can even be sealed in an artificial soul, but it even if it could, all mod souls come from soul society (Urahara doesn't make them)

I know it's not canon, but within the anime, Urahara created 3 mod souls himself. They even managed to reappear in the newest ED. So while they may not be official proof of anything, it's very easy to assume that Urahara is smart enough and capable enough to create mod souls that won't be tracked by Soul Society. Besides, mod souls should've ceased being tracked by Soul Society after they were all ordered to be terminated. Afterall, I noticed no one from Soul Society ever came looking for Kon when he was revealed to have survived.

The only way she could remain safe was to go totally incognito in the living world.

But how was she to remain totally incognito and off the radar when she was going to keep constantly accompanying the substitute shinigami who had no business wielding shinigami powers in the first place? She likely would've been found sooner or later.

If Aizen found her, not only would he have gotten the hougyoku, but he would've killed Rukia because he tends to kill people he feels aren't useful anymore. So yeah, it seems a little tough on Rukia but hardly inhumane since it was for her benefit as well as SS.

Yes. But if Urahara didn't give Rukia the hougyoku in the first place, then she wouldn't have had to become Aizen's target. She may have also been able to recover her powers a lot faster and return to soul society before anyone came looking for her.

No. That wasn't standard SS rules. Normally, Rukia would've lost her powers and become undetectable long before SS sent anyone. The reason they came after her so soon was because Aizen had killed Central 46 and was giving orders posed as them.

Notice, I didn't claim SS would come after her so soon. I claimed they'd come to find her "eventually"--which just so happened to be a point you didn't necessarily refute. And like I just stated above...with the way she was trailing Ichigo, it would likely only be a matter of time before they found her. I mean it's not like she was going out of her way to remain under the radar to Soul Society while she was in the world of the living (like the Vizards did). Even if she did get smart enough to stay under cover after a period of time, that would only then put Ichigo at risk and on Soul Society's radar in her place.

So I'm still not seeing why Rukia had to get involved or what made her the perfect candidate to pass the orb off to. It just seems like it would've been far safer and less complicated to just pass the orb off to someone who Aizen would have no means of knowing about.