2012-01-29, 17:11 | Link #27401 | |||||
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It's pretty much irrelevant now, but when I was saying that you made a case of "a solution is possible" I was referring to your argument that "there is a solution we just haven't found yet." Quote:
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My theory is basically saying this: Erika's sight was obstructed by a blindfold because of a game she was playing. All of the data she received was absolutely 100% correct, but she mistook it for something else that was similar. Even if she's not allowed to mistake something for something else, I could say that Piece!Yasuda is the only one voicing both Shannon and Kanon in the game, so she's not actually making a mistake at all, since they were always voiced by her. It's implied that Piece!Battler's narration contains falsehoods since he saw both Shannon and Kanon at the same time. And while there is nothing in any episode to lead us to believe that Kanon has a body in EP5, there are plenty of things which lead us to believe that there are two different stories being told at the same time by the GM, and that these stories contain plenty of differences. Our Confessions, in particular, pretty much says outright that this is how it is. The Mystery side of the story is the inner logic of the game board, it's what's really happening. However, the Player can only see this side of the story through the eyes of the Detective Piece, and outside of that Piece's range of observation, any number of illusions can be said to be happening. Those illusions are the Fantasy side of the story. Therefore, it should be perfectly valid for me to say that what we saw through Piece!Battler's eyes was the Fantasy side of the story, and that the Mystery side is not necessarily like that. As long as certain key elements (like the fact that they all introduced themselves to each other in that scene) remain the same, it should be alright to theorize that some things were different on the Mystery side, even if the Player (Meta!Bern/Meta!Erika) is present when the GM (Meta!Lambda) is telling lies to a 3rd party (Meta!Battler, who was not the Player at this point in time). In this scene, Meta!Lambda has no obligation to show Meta!Battler the perspective of Piece!Erika, and it is well within her rights to show him some falsehood through the eyes of a non-Detective Piece, as long as the Player has had full access to the perspective of the Detective Piece. Lambda was not calling attention to ShKanon in the Fantasy side, and we could easily say that she was simply trying to speed things up since this was just the second telling of the story. According to my theory, Meta!Erika and Meta!Bern have full access to Piece!Erika's perspective on the Mystery side of the story, and are not being fed a single falsehood with regard to that particular perspective. Therefore, it does not invalidate Erika's reliable perspective at all. Quote:
The idea that Piece!Yasuda changed at least once without Piece!Erika noticing it is also odd to me, since her senses are well above average. We're not talking about some minor change in appearance here, because Piece!Yasuda is putting on completely different clothes, changing her hairstyle, and more. The idea that Piece!Yasuda is a ventriloquist also doesn't really work well with me because we have no reason to believe that she would be one. On the contrary, we have plenty of reason to believe that she's skilled at changing her voice. And even if she was a ventriloquist, that doesn't give us a non-suspicious reason for why Piece!Erika shouldn't be allowed to see Kanon. On the contrary, if she's not allowed to see anyone because she's willingly playing a game that requires her to be blindfolded, that shouldn't cause her to find the idea of not seeing Shannon or Kanon suspicious at all. |
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2012-01-29, 17:11 | Link #27402 | ||||
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For one thing, there's Knox's Decalogue, which Beato's gameboard follows, and Dlanor uses Battler's former Detective status to combat the claim that he hallucinated Kinzo out in the rain. Quote:
How about you stop being a dick every time you talk to me? Every time I try and be nice to me and make up you have to waltz in and make personal jabs. Quote:
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2012-01-29, 17:20 | Link #27403 | |
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It is forbidden for unknown drugs or hard to understand scientific devices to be used. Can you show an example for such a... "device"? And even if you could, there is still the problem: Knox's 8th It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented. Such a device was never shown to the detective, so it cannot be used to create that theory. Ironicly there are even many hints for that theory in EP5. He/She is an expert in changing his/her voice. After all for years NO ONE realized, that Kanon and Shannon are the same person. And think back about the scene in EP8 where they deceived Erika in the golden land... if that was not done to indicate back to this parlor scene and them tricking Erika overall, then i really don't get the meaning of that EP8 scene at all. After all they could make Erika think that Battler and Lambda are present, although they are not. At least for some time... |
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2012-01-29, 17:52 | Link #27404 | ||
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Here it is again. First off, the unexpected guest is a young girl. As we've already established, she looks like she's 14 or something. So it might have been decided that a strict and formal introduction is unsuitable and would make her feel unwelcome. So they decided to play a game instead. (note that Rosa herself said something like "won't that just make her feel unwelcome?" in the scene Meta!Lambda showed to Meta!Battler, which I'll use as a clue to this) At any rate, it's a very simple game. In this game, Erika is the detective, and she can question people as much as she wants. Her objective is to reason out everyone's identities correctly. However, it wouldn't even be a challenge if she could look at everyone, so she puts on a blindfold. Naturally, the premise of this game is such that Erika would instantly agree to its terms, upon being challenged. After all, more than anything else, she is the detective. Most importantly, this game allows Yasuda to switch between Kanon and Shannon in front of the guest, without needing to change her appearance. And we know that Yasuda has all the motivation in the world to setup a game like this. One of the things she wants most is for everyone to acknowledge her personas as people, but the family members already know the truth and are only being bribed (supported by Our Confessions). Therefore, her objective is to trick Erika into believing that both Shannon and Kanon exist at the same time. So she could even be the real mastermind behind this game. Because Piece!Yasuda should be plenty skilled at changing her voice to match Shannon or Kanon, it follows that she should easily be able to trick Erika under these circumstances. It wouldn't require a miracle for her to pull it off, unlike many other theories. In other words, according to my theory, she knew that she was blindfolded and participated anyway. Basically, this game was how everyone was actually introduced to each other. She would probably see this as undertaking an additional challenge as the detective, in order to make things more interesting. And, in exchange for temporarily sealing her vision, it allows her an opportunity to question all of the Pieces controlled by the GM to collect clues and such. Quote:
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2012-01-29, 18:18 | Link #27405 | ||||
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Though even if I don't agree with the theory it's fucking awesome for laugh value and should be on TVTropes. Quote:
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2012-01-29, 18:29 | Link #27406 | ||
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Her field of observation, with regard to all of her senses, is perfectly accurate. However, if we allow Erika's vision to be obstructed by Gohda, we can definitely allow her vision to be obstructed by a blindfold temporarily. Therefore, aside from what's happening right in front of her, her vision won't be good enough to detect it.
The point is that none of her other senses were obstructed. And even if her vision is obstructed, she is not being fed any falsehoods. If we can work around the fact that "she should be able to see Kanon" it would become exponentially easier to hide the fact that Kanon doesn't possess a human body from Erika. That's the reason for my theory. Quote:
She probably did catch most of them for acting, due to how sharp her senses are. My theory only requires her to not catch Kanon and Shannon as being an act. Quote:
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2012-01-29, 18:40 | Link #27407 | |
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2012-01-29, 18:50 | Link #27408 | |
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2. She could have mentioned it the first time the scene was shown. All we were shown was a retelling, and Meta!Erika wasn't in that particular part of the Meta World at that point in time for whatever reason. There is no need for Meta!Erika to mention something like this long after it already happened, and especially when she's not around to mention it. 3. She's only wearing a blindfold for the duration of this little game in the Parlor. It's just a different interpretation of the Parlor scene. In other words, she can see whatever she wants before and after this game happens. On the Fantasy side, what Piece!Erika saw and did was just what Piece!Battler said she saw and did. In essence, (according to my theory) during the retelling only, Lambda is lying to Meta!Battler by showing him Piece!Battler's made-up perspective, in order to speed things up and because she's a troll. And Bern doesn't say anything because she's busy laughing at how incompetent Meta!Battler is. 4. The point is that, if Gohda can obstruct her vision, then her vision can be obstructed. And I was able to provide all the reasons and motivations for her to wear a blindfold, for the duration of this little game. Last edited by Toku; 2012-01-29 at 19:17. |
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2012-01-29, 19:28 | Link #27409 | |||
The True Culprit
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2012-01-29, 19:57 | Link #27410 | |||||||
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Why would it be?
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The reason she's being challenged to the game (at the level of the game board)? Because the family wanted to welcome her with something that wasn't strict and formal, and because Piece!Yasuda wanted a way to easily introduce Shannon and Kanon to the newcomer in a way that would definitely make her think that both of them exist at the same time. The reason Lambda made this game? It's an easy way to let Erika meet everyone on the island and question them, while tricking her into thinking that both Kanon and Shannon are there. As long as Piece!Erika sees Kanon and Shannon at different points later in the story, she shouldn't be suspicious. In fact, she should be thinking "I met both of them in that room" so even if she did get suspicious about ShKanon, that should probably dispell it. Of course, ShKanon is not necessary for Lambdadelta, and it's not necessarily relevant to EP5 anyway, but by making this illusion look like reality, she can keep open as many options as possible. The reason Lambda didn't show Battler the game? Quote:
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The point of doing it in the Parlor scene is because that's where she meets everyone. First impressions are important, and since she's bent on playing the detective, they're all the more important for her. Well, I already explained Lambda's motivations, so. Weren't we talking about the first parlor scene, where it's confirmed that everyone on the island was inside the room and Erika was being introduced? She wasn't going after Natsuhi yet then. |
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2012-01-29, 20:07 | Link #27411 | ||||
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And why is Erika willing to give up any information at all? She never demonstrated this at any other point in the series, ever. Quote:
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2012-01-29, 20:19 | Link #27412 | |||||
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Does it really fudge everyone's characterizations that much? Again, I'm not trying to explain the scene where she's cornering Natsuhi right now. My theory has nothing to do with that scene. Debating about multiple different scenes at the same time is too much, so let's take this one scene at a time. Quote:
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2012-01-29, 22:00 | Link #27413 | ||
The True Culprit
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2012-01-29, 22:27 | Link #27414 |
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I am entirely not a part of these debates and speculations, but I just am gonna throw something completely unrelated in to know if anyone ever found a reason to credit or discredit the whole Ikuko may be Shkanontrice shebang?
I haven't been up to the Umineko trends since I read episode 7, honestly. I kinda just read Episode 8 on my own and didn't bother discussing with my friends or anything. Thanks. Edit: If the general consensus is that people aren't 100% positive either way, I'd love to discuss. |
2012-01-29, 23:28 | Link #27415 | ||
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The first parlor scene essentially requires Erika to be introduced to everyone. She isn't concerned with any single person in particular, and has every reason to use this as an opportunity to memorize everyone's identities. This makes it much more difficult to trick her into believing the whole ShKanon thing. However, in the proclamation scene, this is not the case. It's because of this that I thought the first scene is more important and should get attention first... Also, since it's already so tricky to find solutions to these scenes, there's no reason for us to further complicate things by trying to deal with both scenes at once. If you do it on a case by case basis, it might become easier. Look, the whole thing about them having a game is just one possible explanation I came up with. It doesn't have to be that. As long as there exists some non-suspicious method of obstructing Piece!Erika's vision enough to allow Shannon and Kanon to both introduce themselves without Piece!Yasuda having to change her appearance, it would be good enough. But it is a stretch, I know. I think it's easier if I just say that Piece!Yasuda left the room undetected, changed to Kanon, and returned in an inconspicuous manner before Kanon was to be introduced. Of course, when Piece!Yasuda first entered the room as Shannon, everyone on the island was in the room, but that Red text only applied to that specific moment, so it was possible for people to leave and return after that. It's not the best theory in the world, because it kind of requires Erika to be an idiot (which I don't like), but a slight oversight like this is tolerable, I guess... After all, there were plenty of distractions in the room since everyone was fixated on the new guest and were chatting with her. If neither of these two theories work though, I'll probably have to resort to Kanon had his own body in EP5 because that would be the only option left which isn't too ridiculous (in my opinion). Quote:
I like the theory because it makes the ending a lot more meaningful, and creates a lot of parallels between Yasuda and Kinzo... And it also creates a meaningful parallel for Ange, because with this it's easy to say that Ange was using her "magic" to revive Battler in the same way that she revived Sakutarou in EP4. But who really knows? |
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2012-01-29, 23:48 | Link #27416 | ||
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Also, she's being kind of a dick if she's not telling Battler/Toya what happened. Hell, why does she even need his help to write the stories? Quote:
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2012-01-30, 00:47 | Link #27417 | |
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However, I don't think Ikuko would be being a dick at all for not telling Battler what happened. In fact, I thought the whole idea (or at least, my version) of the theory was that Ikuko was so sure she was the culprit, so married to the idea that she killed everyone in one way or another that she wrote the books about how Beatrice (in other words, Yasu) was the only culprit possible and there wasn't any other plausible explanation. And then Touya tells Ikuko he doesn't agree with her story and they begin debating over it. Touya starts to regain his memories of what happens (mirrored by Battler becoming more competent and forceful in his convictions in the meta-world,) and suddenly is convinced that Beatrice did not do it. By the time of the third book, he'd be trying to convince Ikuko that Eva, the only other survivor, is clearly the culprit. Eventually, he realizes even that's wrong. I think it's also pretty nicely mirrored, meta-world Battler and what Touya tells Ange at the ???? in Ep8, that he sometimes was convinced who he was and what he felt and sometimes was sure he was Touya and Battler was dead. Meta-world Battler got distraught and unsure of himself many times, like when he found out Asumu wasn't his mother or when Beato betrayed him. You see what I mean, but am I entirely missing something? I kinda like looking at it this way. And my whole mirror thing doesn't work unless you're willing to just suspend your disbelief and say that Yasu was able to become Ikuko by doing x or y, so please take that into account. |
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2012-01-30, 00:53 | Link #27418 | |
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Honestly, I like to think that the Meta-World is real, and that the real world and the Meta-World are mutually feeding into each other. Or, alternatively, that everything is Meta and there was never a Rokkenjima :P
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2012-01-30, 00:59 | Link #27419 | |
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Beatrice dying would be in episode 4's end, right? I think that's just easily explained (in my theory, that is) by Ikuko giving up on being able to find the truth, or unable to be swayed that she is in fact the culprit. It's the equivalent of her "dying," per se. Also, I like to think the meta-world is real, as well. But my approach on it is more "it exists because it does." It's like how when I read Umineko, I know I'm reading fiction. So how is a fiction within the fiction any more or less real than what I'm already reading? |
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2012-01-30, 02:18 | Link #27420 | ||
The True Culprit
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