AnimeSuki Forums

Flawfinder · 2012-02-25, 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue_sora

Because he's the main character of a popular series? Kyoukai Senjou no Horizon sells pretty good.

I was sort of joking, but from what little I saw of Horizon, the main character is like Saito from ZnT, only more annoying.

bobphillip · 2012-03-01, 22:20

Isn't Guilty Crown scheduled for a second season?

Xaturas · 2012-03-01, 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobphillip

Isn't Guilty Crown scheduled for a second season?

Don't think so.
They will only make Visual novel, about events in Lost Christmas, with different characters.

bobphillip · 2012-03-01, 22:52

Really? I could swear this article said that there would be a season 2...

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/inte...n-guilty-crown

It says that they are going to be doing 2 seasons for this show doesn't it?

Xaturas · 2012-03-01, 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobphillip

Really? I could swear this article said that there would be a season 2...

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/inte...n-guilty-crown

It says that they are going to be doing 2 seasons for this show doesn't it?

I think you get it wrong.
Most of the time in anime everyone considers 1 cour as season.
12+/- eps are considered as 1 cour.

In GC case you get 24+/- eps which gives you 2 cours.

Possibly its just misunderstanding 2 cours for 2 seasons, which can be right as 1st season was first eps before Tokyo Explosion and 2nd season is now after Tokyo explosion.

supalotus · 2012-03-02, 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xaturas

I think you get it wrong.
Most of the time in anime everyone considers 1 cour as season.
12+/- eps are considered as 1 cour.

In GC case you get 24+/- eps which gives you 2 cours.

Possibly its just misunderstanding 2 cours for 2 seasons, which can be right as 1st season was first eps before Tokyo Explosion and 2nd season is now after Tokyo explosion.

I've seen a lot of people misinterpreting the 2 cours for 2 seasons.

As for episode 19, well I think everyone knew he was getting some sort of new arm since the intro is a big spoiler haha. It's a double edged sword, unfortunately

Astraios · 2012-03-08, 21:53

I just have to say it, episode 20 was the best episode (or one of the best) that we have seen so far.

Spoiler for Episode 20:

sa547 · 2012-03-11, 09:12

http://anime.biglobe.ne.jp/userranking/chara/29782/

Congratulations.

Astraios · 2012-03-22, 15:38

Ok, the anime ended.
But...

Spoiler for Why...:

com_gwp · 2012-03-22, 22:03

^Because the writers obviously thought he needed to suffer MORE.

Spoiler for suffering:

Flawfinder · 2012-03-22, 22:20

I can't summon any energy to argue why he became blind or why that's relevant and such. Maybe in a few days.

Astraios · 2012-03-22, 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by com_gwp

^Because the writers obviously thought he needed to suffer MORE.

Yes the writers don't want to give him a break.
I understand that Shu can be considered a "guilty king" because of his power/"guilty crown" to use voids etc.
But the guy is suffering non-stop since the first episode to the last.

Spoiler for Last episode:

Astraios · 2012-03-22, 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flawnalyst

I can't summon any energy to argue why he became blind or why that's relevant and such. Maybe in a few days.

I have just thought a theory:

Spoiler for Blindness:

Sageblink · 2012-03-22, 22:53

I think it's more about the world the Da'at would like to create. When I turned completely into crystal, he saw Gai (the almost-nice one) who talked about the memories trapped into crystal etc it this world.

I think that because he saw that he turned blind, allowing him to leave with the memory of Inori beside/inside him.
Don't know if I'm clear (cause it's also a bit messy in my head)...

whsie · 2012-03-23, 00:09

That ending was a face palm..., like this whole freakin series. No one deserves an ending like that. If I was Shu, I would have preferred to die with Inori.

The funny thing was that I was getting excited when Shu said that he's going together with Inori (die together) because it was matching perfectly with everything going around including Gai and Mana's death. Then no...., we see Shu's conscious and Inori goes bye bye...., leaving Shu all alone in this world to rot to his death.

tsunade666 · 2012-03-23, 06:33

Inori leave Shoes behind to suffer more

blind and cripple with one mech hand.

WELL at least the writer give a good reason for AyasexShu ending

Flawfinder · 2012-03-23, 09:49

If Funimation ever dubs this series, I might check it out just to see if I like this series better in the English language, as there have been some series where the English language improved my view on it (Black Lagoon, Darker than Black, Eureka Seven, and such).

AkumaPrincess · 2012-03-23, 11:43

I hope Guilty Crown will have some type of selling point in Japan. If it's well liked (even with the BS ending) and the sells are high in Japan, I really would like to see an OVA series or even maybe a movie along the lines of Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha the Movie First or The Gurren-hen movie from TTGL, re-explaining (rewriting) the whole series.

GC really does have the potential to be great, but was ruined because of the horrible plots, bad writing....etc.

miketyson · 2012-03-23, 12:29

Here goes my post-mortem.

What did GC get right? The art direction, the sound direction, and the music direction. The art direction is stunning. Yes, at times the execution on those ideas went "quality" on us, but coming up with cool things to draw is more important, and GC really shined when it came to establishing its unique look. I expect it to be very influential on future productions for this reason alone. The sound design -- things like sound effects, etc. -- and of course the musical score are similarly fantastic, and I can't really find much real fault with them.

What did GC get wrong? Well, a lot of different things, but I'm going to focus on two large issues that I think are responsible for most of the rest of what went wrong. The summary: creative team had good ideas but weren't actually good at the mechanics of writing. Additionally, creative team had good ideas, but too many of them, and had terrible judgment about which to keep and which to discard.

Spoiler for Gory details, very long:

The first is that the writers/creative team are seemingly very good at coming up with original-enough ideas at the "big-picture" or "concept" level, but they just weren't very good at the nitty-gritty mechanics of telling a story in 22-minute chunks. To elaborate: their world-building and overall scenario borrows a lot of elements from a lot of sources, but despite the *heavy* borrowing it managed to feel "original enough" to me, and the borrowed elements all got stitched together into a coherent-enough world for their story to take place in. So at that level they're certainly quite competent.

Where things are different is actually writing the episodes. Here they just seemed to trip all over themselves most of the time, and seemed overly-reliant on tropes and cliches to cobble together each 22 minute chunk. This isn't itself a death sentence -- tropes and cliches are tropes and cliches because they're effective narrative when used well -- but the GC staff just wasn't that good at writing episodes, period. So, overall, they had the skills to do what they did at the big-picture level, but not really the skills to write solid episodes, at least in my opinion.

So that's the first issue: good at conceptualizing, not so good at actually writing.

The other issue is being overly ambitious about the stories they tried to tell: they had a lot of big picture ideas, and tried to fit too many of them into the available space. This is true at the big-picture level, and it's true at the lower-level details too..I'll illustrate by talking about Daryl, since his arc illustrates it to a fault.

If you map out his character arc a lot happens. He starts out as a cold-hearted, arrogant bad guy, then we see reasons to pity him, then he kills his parents, then he seems to soften up when he goes undercover and meets Tsugumi, then he disobeys orders from Da'ath to protect Tsugumi, then he goes full-on evil villain again, then in his very last moments of screentime he seems to snap out of it and get back on redemption road, as it were.

That's quite an arc to attempt, especially because it's not a straight line: it isn't "somewhat bad guy slowly goes off the deep end" and it isn't "definite bad guy slowly crawls his way to redemption"..his character arc starts out with him going "up", then near the final episodes it goes back "down", and then at the end it seemingly starts going back up again.

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that character arc; it'd be interesting if done well, and it's nothing that'd be impossible to pull off.

What makes it "bad" to my eyes is that it's too much for the writers to try and pull off with the screentime the writers' overall story could afford to spare on Daryl. To make that arc *work* within the bounds of Daryl's available screentime would require miraculously deft writing, and if this show had miraculously deft writing our many, many things about it would be different.

Realistically, then, the "good" options the writers could've gone for with Daryl would've been *either* amend the story to give him more screentime -- perhaps just adding more "slice-of-life inside GHQ and the antibodies scenes would've accomplished this -- *or* simplifying his character arc into something that could be made to work within the available space...which'd essentially mean making his arc more one-directional, either a gradual climb towards redemption or a gradual descent into outright evil.

Either option for him could've easily been made to work...at the expense of giving up on part of what I can only assume must've been the writers' original vision for his character. So, instead of cutting back and giving him a character arc that could've been made to work very effectively, the writers instead tried to fit the entirety of their original vision in, and we wound up with something that never quite worked.

That's my longest post on this forum (I think) and probably the longest post anyone'll ever write about Daryl (

), but I think Daryl's story pretty much summarizes the entirety of what went wrong with Guilty Crown. A mixture of reach-for-the-stars ambition and a lack of good editorial judgment makes a pretty bad combo.

So, tl;dr: good with ideas, bad at writing; good ideas, but too many of them, and bad judgment about which to keep and which to toss. End result: a huge mess. Granted, it's a mess with with lots of interesting parts mixed into it, but it's still more a mess than anything else. Still wouldn't be surprised if it's eventually an "inspirational mess" that influences a lot of future creations.

Triple_R · 2012-03-23, 13:08

Yeah, I agree almost entirely with miketyson.

The GC writing staff are the writing equivalent of good strategists, horrible tacticians. Very good at the "big picture" level but really bad on details.

And when you're being this ambitious, you need to be very good on the details for everything to come off well.

Yoshino should be a sounding board/adviser for an actual good writer.

His job should simply be to say "Hey, here's an idea!", and then have somebody else actually implement it (or rule it out, in more extreme cases).

That being said, I'm not sure how seriously we're supposed to take all of these characters. Ultimately, Daryl felt like little more than a plot device character to me (primarily a character to play needed roles in various conflicts, mostly antagonistic roles). And as a pure plot device character, I guess he was useful.

2012-03-08, 21:53	Link #3387
Astraios Member Join Date: Oct 2011	I just have to say it, episode 20 was the best episode (or one of the best) that we have seen so far. Spoiler for Episode 20: Sure it was mostly a flashback episode, but we finally know how the Keigo scientist, Haruka, Shu, Mana, Inori, Gai, Shu's father, Shu's biological mother, even Daarth are related. I called Haruka a bad parent in a past post, but in this episode I felt sorry for her. She (and some other characters) are not that bad after all. I wonder if in the end, this anime is going to have a happy ending or a bad ending.

2012-03-11, 09:12	Link #3388
sa547 Senior Member Author Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Philippines Age: 47	http://anime.biglobe.ne.jp/userranking/chara/29782/ Congratulations. __________________

2012-03-22, 15:38	Link #3389
Astraios Member Join Date: Oct 2011	Ok, the anime ended. But... Spoiler for Why...: I expected that Inori would die, but why Shu became blind? I don't understand this. Can someone explain it? Am I missing something?

2012-03-22, 22:03	Link #3390
com_gwp Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010	^Because the writers obviously thought he needed to suffer MORE. Spoiler for suffering: No, seriously, it's like the guy can't catch a break. He gets denied death with his true love, and have to live out the rest of his life a worse cripple than Ayase.

2012-03-22, 22:20	Link #3391
Flawfinder Loves the Experience Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Earth...hopefully	I can't summon any energy to argue why he became blind or why that's relevant and such. Maybe in a few days. __________________ My Awesome Anime Blog: Standing On My Neck

2012-03-01, 22:20	Link #3382
bobphillip Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2012	Isn't Guilty Crown scheduled for a second season?

2012-03-01, 22:52	Link #3384
bobphillip Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2012	Really? I could swear this article said that there would be a season 2... http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/inte...n-guilty-crown It says that they are going to be doing 2 seasons for this show doesn't it?

2012-03-22, 22:53	Link #3394
Sageblink Speculation is wrong. Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Paris	I think it's more about the world the Da'at would like to create. When I turned completely into crystal, he saw Gai (the almost-nice one) who talked about the memories trapped into crystal etc it this world. I think that because he saw that he turned blind, allowing him to leave with the memory of Inori beside/inside him. Don't know if I'm clear (cause it's also a bit messy in my head)...

2012-03-23, 00:09	Link #3395
whsie Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Seattle and Houston... sleeping in a car.	That ending was a face palm..., like this whole freakin series. No one deserves an ending like that. If I was Shu, I would have preferred to die with Inori. The funny thing was that I was getting excited when Shu said that he's going together with Inori (die together) because it was matching perfectly with everything going around including Gai and Mana's death. Then no...., we see Shu's conscious and Inori goes bye bye...., leaving Shu all alone in this world to rot to his death.

2012-03-23, 06:33	Link #3396
tsunade666 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: In my room	Inori leave Shoes behind to suffer more blind and cripple with one mech hand. WELL at least the writer give a good reason for AyasexShu ending __________________ To A certain Lonely Hero

2012-03-23, 09:49	Link #3397
Flawfinder Loves the Experience Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Earth...hopefully	If Funimation ever dubs this series, I might check it out just to see if I like this series better in the English language, as there have been some series where the English language improved my view on it (Black Lagoon, Darker than Black, Eureka Seven, and such). __________________ My Awesome Anime Blog: Standing On My Neck

2012-03-23, 11:43	Link #3398
AkumaPrincess Witch Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: United States	I hope Guilty Crown will have some type of selling point in Japan. If it's well liked (even with the BS ending) and the sells are high in Japan, I really would like to see an OVA series or even maybe a movie along the lines of Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha the Movie First or The Gurren-hen movie from TTGL, re-explaining (rewriting) the whole series. GC really does have the potential to be great, but was ruined because of the horrible plots, bad writing....etc.

2012-03-23, 12:29	Link #3399
miketyson Senior Member Join Date: May 2011	Here goes my post-mortem. What did GC get right? The art direction, the sound direction, and the music direction. The art direction is stunning. Yes, at times the execution on those ideas went "quality" on us, but coming up with cool things to draw is more important, and GC really shined when it came to establishing its unique look. I expect it to be very influential on future productions for this reason alone. The sound design -- things like sound effects, etc. -- and of course the musical score are similarly fantastic, and I can't really find much real fault with them. What did GC get wrong? Well, a lot of different things, but I'm going to focus on two large issues that I think are responsible for most of the rest of what went wrong. The summary: creative team had good ideas but weren't actually good at the mechanics of writing. Additionally, creative team had good ideas, but too many of them, and had terrible judgment about which to keep and which to discard. Spoiler for Gory details, very long: The first is that the writers/creative team are seemingly very good at coming up with original-enough ideas at the "big-picture" or "concept" level, but they just weren't very good at the nitty-gritty mechanics of telling a story in 22-minute chunks. To elaborate: their world-building and overall scenario borrows a lot of elements from a lot of sources, but despite the heavy borrowing it managed to feel "original enough" to me, and the borrowed elements all got stitched together into a coherent-enough world for their story to take place in. So at that level they're certainly quite competent. Where things are different is actually writing the episodes. Here they just seemed to trip all over themselves most of the time, and seemed overly-reliant on tropes and cliches to cobble together each 22 minute chunk. This isn't itself a death sentence -- tropes and cliches are tropes and cliches because they're effective narrative when used well -- but the GC staff just wasn't that good at writing episodes, period. So, overall, they had the skills to do what they did at the big-picture level, but not really the skills to write solid episodes, at least in my opinion. So that's the first issue: good at conceptualizing, not so good at actually writing. The other issue is being overly ambitious about the stories they tried to tell: they had a lot of big picture ideas, and tried to fit too many of them into the available space. This is true at the big-picture level, and it's true at the lower-level details too..I'll illustrate by talking about Daryl, since his arc illustrates it to a fault. If you map out his character arc a lot happens. He starts out as a cold-hearted, arrogant bad guy, then we see reasons to pity him, then he kills his parents, then he seems to soften up when he goes undercover and meets Tsugumi, then he disobeys orders from Da'ath to protect Tsugumi, then he goes full-on evil villain again, then in his very last moments of screentime he seems to snap out of it and get back on redemption road, as it were. That's quite an arc to attempt, especially because it's not a straight line: it isn't "somewhat bad guy slowly goes off the deep end" and it isn't "definite bad guy slowly crawls his way to redemption"..his character arc starts out with him going "up", then near the final episodes it goes back "down", and then at the end it seemingly starts going back up again. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that character arc; it'd be interesting if done well, and it's nothing that'd be impossible to pull off. What makes it "bad" to my eyes is that it's too much for the writers to try and pull off with the screentime the writers' overall story could afford to spare on Daryl. To make that arc work within the bounds of Daryl's available screentime would require miraculously deft writing, and if this show had miraculously deft writing our many, many things about it would be different. Realistically, then, the "good" options the writers could've gone for with Daryl would've been either amend the story to give him more screentime -- perhaps just adding more "slice-of-life inside GHQ and the antibodies scenes would've accomplished this -- or simplifying his character arc into something that could be made to work within the available space...which'd essentially mean making his arc more one-directional, either a gradual climb towards redemption or a gradual descent into outright evil. Either option for him could've easily been made to work...at the expense of giving up on part of what I can only assume must've been the writers' original vision for his character. So, instead of cutting back and giving him a character arc that could've been made to work very effectively, the writers instead tried to fit the entirety of their original vision in, and we wound up with something that never quite worked. That's my longest post on this forum (I think) and probably the longest post anyone'll ever write about Daryl (), but I think Daryl's story pretty much summarizes the entirety of what went wrong with Guilty Crown. A mixture of reach-for-the-stars ambition and a lack of good editorial judgment makes a pretty bad combo. So, tl;dr: good with ideas, bad at writing; good ideas, but too many of them, and bad judgment about which to keep and which to toss. End result: a huge mess. Granted, it's a mess with with lots of interesting parts mixed into it, but it's still more a mess than anything else. Still wouldn't be surprised if it's eventually an "inspirational mess" that influences a lot of future creations.

2012-03-23, 13:08	Link #3400
Triple_R Senior Member Author Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Newfoundland, Canada Age: 42	Yeah, I agree almost entirely with miketyson. The GC writing staff are the writing equivalent of good strategists, horrible tacticians. Very good at the "big picture" level but really bad on details. And when you're being this ambitious, you need to be very good on the details for everything to come off well. Yoshino should be a sounding board/adviser for an actual good writer. His job should simply be to say "Hey, here's an idea!", and then have somebody else actually implement it (or rule it out, in more extreme cases). That being said, I'm not sure how seriously we're supposed to take all of these characters. Ultimately, Daryl felt like little more than a plot device character to me (primarily a character to play needed roles in various conflicts, mostly antagonistic roles). And as a pure plot device character, I guess he was useful. __________________