2012-06-01, 06:10 | Link #41 | |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 36
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Exactly, many of shakespeare's works feature supernatural elements, similiar to what you might see with youkai (EG, the ghost in Hamlet, prospero and ariel in The Tempest, the fairies of A Midsummers Night's Dream etc.) |
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2012-06-01, 06:36 | Link #42 |
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With most anime shows I don't like, I'm still able to see why some people do like them (often, it just comes down to a style of sex appeal that doesn't appeal to me, but I can see why it would appeal to somebody of a different perspective or taste).
But there are certain popular anime elements that continue to perplex me (even after I've been an anime fan for seven years or so! ), and given what papermario13689 wrote in his latest post on this thread, this thread is probably as good as any to ask about them: 1) Maids. I don't dislike maids, but I wonder why they show up in all sorts of shows, often fulfilling roles that maids usually don't fill in fiction. Is it just a fetish? Is it due to Japan having a fascination with the very concept of maids, maybe viewing them as an exotic and hence exciting element of European culture that's not common in Japan? I honestly have no idea how common maids are in modern or historical Japan. 2) Nosebleeds. I certainly get what nosebleeds are symbolic of, but I'm mainly curious about why nosebleeds were chosen as a means to convey a character being sexually aroused. I think 0utf0xZer0 once said it was tied to an old wife's tale in Japan. Well, it might be nice if someone actually told that tale (or linked to it on another site), as it might shed some light on why anime equates "bleeding nose" with "sexually aroused". 3) Static romances. That's probably the best way I can put it. In other words, romances that seem to be permanently locked on the "1st base" position. In other words, romances that never progress beyond the shy, blushing stage. I certainly get the cuteness of the "shy, blushing stage", but not letting a romance get beyond it strikes me as being similar to, say, a person wanting to dream about New York City but never actually visit New York City. A good example of a static romance is the main one in Kimi ni Todoke. 4) Tsunderes. Now, I do get tsunderes to a point. I get how the charm of some tsunderes is her slowly getting nicer/friendlier over-time, and that being a neat way to seamlessly blend character development with romance development. But some tsunderes never really change (there's a certain imouto in Ore no Imouto that seems like this ). I do wonder what drives this. Is it just a love of slapstick comedy, and the consistently tsuntsun tsundere is seen as a good vehicle for delivering that? Or is it something deeper than this? I'll leave it at that. Thankfully, most popular anime elements/tropes I get, and a fair number I really like myself. But the four I mentioned above do continue to perplex me.
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2012-06-01, 06:57 | Link #43 | ||||
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Another major pet peeve is that the vast majority of romance anime ends at the formation of the relationship. Hardly any go into maintaining one (the ups/downs of relationships), though manga seems do that occasionally, thank god. And you can't put "sex" in an anime or else you get angry otakus sending out death threats to its creators . Quote:
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2012-06-01, 07:13 | Link #44 | ||||
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So do nuns, basically, but with nuns you have the obvious connection to that exotic (to Japan) Catholic church. So unless maids are similarly exotic to Japan, it's hard for me to get the maid thing. But then, in fairness, some fetishes can be hard to get for people who don't have them. Quote:
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I decided to be generous and call it "first base", but yeah, it's not even that in many cases. Quote:
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2012-06-01, 07:24 | Link #45 | ||||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 36
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I generally agree with Demi_soda
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The character in itself is appealing because she pushes back, a fair number of guys don't like girls who are complete overly nice pushovers (like the Yamato Nadesico archetype). Arguments are also generally a good vehicle for dramatic and romantic tension (and tsunderes are a good source for those). The dere side is also important, the girl might have a hostile exterior, but underneath it all she's still a caring and feminine, it's just more difficult to reach it. Tsun -> dere is an easy character evolution. I'd say a Tsundere who remains tsun tsun for the entire narrative is more a result of poor writing with static characters, then anything else. |
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2012-06-01, 07:45 | Link #46 |
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Join Date: Aug 2008
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The taming concept was in the original definition (technically the second definition) of tsundere.
But currently it's common to use the word for a character who doesn't change from tsun to dere, but rather, is embarrassed to admit their feelings and uses an aggressive attitude to hide said feelings. In this case, the attraction to this is simply because embarrassment is cute. |
2012-06-01, 09:41 | Link #47 | |
Not an expert on things
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Last edited by OceanBlue; 2012-06-01 at 09:51. |
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2012-06-05, 18:31 | Link #48 |
Sekiroad-Idols Sing Twice
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I’ve become hesitant in starting to watch psychological anime and I think I know why. The directors of these works seem to believe showing abstract images and a focus on non-verbal storytelling are a good way to make the shows open-ended and have the audience think. Well, psychological shows are thought-provoking but not in the way the makers of these anime probably intended. I usually find myself thinking too much trying to make sense of the chronology and characterization in such a title because the narrative development and cast development isn’t even in the work. The abstract visuals are just another cause for confusion regarding this type of anime.
Of course, story progress and characterization are not the defining traits for my appreciation of a series. There are plenty of anime that I’ve enjoyed despite the narrative and ensemble being neglected. The difference between those shows and psychological works, however, is that the latter usually take themselves seriously. It’s difficult not to have certain expectations of series that want to be taken seriously. However, maybe my expectations are inappropriate because, after all, isn’t the point of a psychological anime to think? Yet how am I supposed to extract themes that are only implied when the show cannot even properly demonstrate its explicit concepts those being the narrative and characters? Isn’t a philosophy best understood when there’s a story and cast to give it context? Doesn’t an idea become more thought-provoking when it relates to the viewer? The lack of material in a psychological anime is further exacerbated by its frequent choice to focus on non-verbal storytelling. Using an indirect method of storytelling to communicate a message that’s barely implied is unneeded confusion that tries to hide non-existent content. My usual problem with psychological anime is not that they’re hard to understand; it’s that, often, there’s nothing to understand. The messages derived from these shows should be a consequence of their story and characters instead of the point itself. I have a good idea of what’s about to be directed at me. After all, some observant people might notice the characters in my avatar and signature and think I am unqualified to talk about this. More observant people will note what I said at the beginning. Observant and curious people will remember what I said at the start, look at my favorites list, and what do you know? My position is better understood or at least it should be. Have a nice day.
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2012-06-05, 20:52 | Link #49 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 67
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I know there's official terminology but I tend to drape them in two general categories based on whether they're presented in a time linear fashion or a force shield mode...
Tsundere type 1: Shakespearean "Taming of the Shrew" (in she isn't tamed so much as partners with the male in an ultimate "gotcha' on the people betting against them making a pair). This is the tsun->dere (ice queen melts, etc). I usually argue that she's actually a type 2 but the plot is just simplified. Tsundere type 2: Crunchy on the outside, creamy on the inside. Shows the creamy only to those who 'raise the right flags' This is the type often seen in modern entertainment.
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2012-06-06, 11:03 | Link #50 | ||||||||||||
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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Must art always be meaningful? Must art be beautiful? Quote:
Note: The answers may sound brusque. That's deliberate, in that I'm trying to demonstrate a point about the philosophy of art. No offence is intended. Apologies in advance if you feel otherwise. * "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." Last edited by TinyRedLeaf; 2012-06-06 at 21:00. |
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2012-06-06, 21:51 | Link #51 |
ゴリゴリ!
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia
Age: 33
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Now that's what I call critical thinking. While certain forms and genres are indeed meant to leave a viewer to think for themselves (which in itself can be dissected critically), there's a wide world out there that is specifically created to mold one's actions into their medium. Your wallet, your thoughts, your interests and your personality become clay ready for the shaping into what the creators generally want, which plays to psychological issues in our lives (maybe a series for those who feel weak to feel empowered, etc.) and makes us think in certain ways. At the very least, I feel it's important to know when this is happening so we're not oblivious to it. I personally would like to be an educated consumer, not a mindless puppet. Then I can like what I actually would want to like.
How about a personal example? A little simple, but this will work nonetheless. Kanon's 2006 rendition by KyoAni is almost universally preferred over the 2002 version by Toei Animation. Now, I'm a big fan of KyoAni's art style and I generally end up enjoying most of the series they animate (Haruhi, K-ON, Lucky Star, Clannad, Nichijou, Hyouka, etc.). To this day, I feel like Kanon 2006 isn't as fantastic (in my opinion) as everyone says it is. Everything noteworthy aside from the superior animation (that's definitely true) is basically already in the 2002 version. The opening and ending theme of 2006 are used in 2002, and the overall charm remains. Basically, it still feels like Kanon 2006 is trying to shape my opinion on the 2002 version, especially with how the fanbase has shifted to their side. This is my personal opinion, but I think the 2002 version is actually more enjoyable in the end. I can watch both and honestly say that the superior animation doesn't give off the same feeling. Now years ago, I would've undoubtedly agreed, saying it looks much better and therefore is better. Shows how much an opinion can differ depending on how you view something. P.S. Just a side note, but Yuuichi in the KyoAni version is Kyon! They kidnapped him and gave him Kanon lines to read! Tell the people! Warn them about what is happening!
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2012-06-07, 15:54 | Link #52 |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 36
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Maybe I'm thinking of psychological anime in a different way, but in my view the distinguishing feature of "psychological" anime is that it delves into thoughts and psychological state of characters, usually in depth, and usually the characters feel a bit "mad". My perception is that the psychological "genre" (if there really is one...) is not given to the non-verbal images and abstract storytelling that Akito_Kinomoto was complaining about. I'd describe those anime as "arthouse anime", and really they're quite an acquired taste, much like written by the likes of James Joyce. While James Joyce has an immense reputation, the truth is that the vast majority don't like reading him, his books are very ... unpleasant to read, unless you approach them with a particular mindset, similiar to arthouse cinema or, indeed, anime.
I would describe anime like Welcome to the NHK, Madoka Magica, Tatami Galaxy, One Outs, Death Note to be "psychological". They all heavily focus on the insides of people's heads. I also wouldn't describe any of them as particularly arty or lacking in dialogue. Psychological anime requires extensively delving into people's core thoughts, which tends to require a lot of dialogue. |
2012-06-07, 16:22 | Link #53 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 67
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I'm with Don here... 'psychological drama' isn't "blindside gotcha" stuff.... his examples are good. Live action examples would be Sybil, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, A Beautiful Mind, and so on...
I'd add William Faulkner to the literary list... he is immensely respected but I found most of his material only readable with my teeth gritted. And yeah, I prefer Kanon 2006 over Kanon 2002 - but only because of the art/animation and the more extensive time budget. Functionally it didn't really bring anything fundamentally new to the story (other than the controversial shift at the end, nope no spoilers). Unfortunately, I can barely watch the old version the visual flaws are so distracting now.
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2012-06-07, 21:26 | Link #54 | |
Sekiroad-Idols Sing Twice
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You said that I was criticizing the point of those shows but quite honestly open-ended is not a problem with me if there was some actual context to base the guesswork on. Texhnolyze, for example, is very similar to Serial Experiments Lain in regards to its density except the former rewards the viewer’s efforts to make sense out of everything with an actual story whereas the latter simply raises more questions. Looking at the narrative of the show itself, there are plenty of things about Texhnolyze that are left up to the viewer’s interpretation. Is Lux a crumbling city being defiled by its own citizens or is it lively for keeping the vitality of everything that is human? Can Ran really tell the future or is it a delusion to offer safety in anarchy? Is the ending of the series tragic for what happens or a blessing in disguise for saving someone? Give me a crime scene and I’ll investigate all I can. Tell me a crime happened and I’ll have no idea where to even start. Yes, art’s meaning is in the eye of the beholder otherwise I couldn’t speculate that Mona Lisa’s subject is DaVinci’s grandmother. The problem is that the art form we’re talking about isn’t a painting or a statue but a medium that, to my knowledge, is primarily used for storytelling. You’re description of European arthouse films as being open-ended, to me, sound like directors who aren’t even sure what story they want to tell. It’s one thing to write a story and have nuances lost in transcription. It’s an entirely different animal to put together random things and expect the audience to make something out of it. So as to whether I think art should always have a purpose, I’ll say yes for narrative art. Outside of storytelling, go ahead and put as many droopy clocks on trees as you want.
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2012-06-07, 22:00 | Link #55 | |||
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TinyRedLeaf mentioned Kubrick,I'll go back to him,here's one of his notable quotes Quote:
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2012-06-07, 22:22 | Link #56 |
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That doesn't mean it shouldn't be.
Kubrick has a right to his opinion, and I respect it, but that's all it is, his opinion. When I go to the movies, it's because I'm hoping to see a good fictional story told through film (unless the movie is displaying non-fiction, of course). I daresay that's true for a lot of people, and probably even a solid majority of movie-goers. And for almost all anime I watch, I'm also hoping to see a good fictional story presented through animation. Good storytelling is something that I value highly, and that I almost always enjoy. Edit: In any event, Akito is basically right. Anime is a medium primarily used for storytelling. There's not many anime shows without any plot to it. Even many shows labeled "slice of life" have some plot to it. A statue and a painting have no plot to it.
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2012-06-07 at 22:34. |
2012-06-07, 22:43 | Link #57 |
Did nothing wrong
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Hmm, I fucking hated 2001. Great book, but the movie was just too boring for me.
I feel that sometimes an anime or a movie or w/e can make me think "you're full of yourself, stop doing that and come back to earth." The first thing in my mind in anime when it comes to this is when I'm watching something by Shinbo in his IMO lesser moments. But Monogatari wasn't really trying to be psychological; the idea still stands though. Penguindrum would do this sometimes I felt, though it was a great show otherwise, when it was doing it right as I will attest to below. It's nice to ask a question and let people figure it out. It's nice to allow for the realm of possibility. It's nice to ask a question that you yourself know not, but have tried to think of a means to figure it out. It is NOT nice to ask questions when you have no idea what the fuck you're asking about, nor a means to find the answer. I would tag Umineko as this, but given that it was a Deen adaptation, I guess I would hold back on such a theory. Though Higurashi was a positive example of this. According to MAL, "psychological" anime is one of my favorite genres. Out of my top 10 shows, Evangelion, Serial Experiments Lain, Paranoia Agent, and perhaps Ergo Proxy (#10 for me is a hard pick) are distinctly in this category. Other favorites from me (Higurashi, Madoka, Akagi) tend to a psychological aspect to it. Most of these animes though I didn't like because they helped me achieve some greater meaning though. They were largely through the intensive character introspection which led to you knowing the characters inside and out that really boosts the nature of the story to one you can care about. And the mind can get pretty crazy sometimes, making it one rather crazy journey that can question your perception of reality, and the show's reality. I feel this is far more solid then some pretentious nonsense about leaving it all to themselves, even though most of my loved shows tend to do this. But they really had questions based in reality though. The aforementioned Penguindrum also did a lot of these good things, though it would sometimes cross the realm into just white noise, so it just sits right below my favorites, really. See, anyone can fucking ask a question. It's what they're asking and how they seek the answer that drives the line between meaningful and bullshit. You have to give people a reason to consider why this question was interesting in the first place.
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2012-06-07, 22:47 | Link #58 |
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@ Triple_R
Snap you replied before I could edit my post. I didn't quite like the way I phrased that,I think i preffer replacing "storytelling" with "the narrative". Probably doesn't affect your reply though. That doesn't mean I think all movies should be like that but such movies and animes have the right to exist and aren't the product of incompetent people. edit:And of course 2001 has a plot,but the plot isn't the point of the movie and isn't what makes it a classic.
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2012-06-08, 08:58 | Link #59 |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 36
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To be honest, "psychological" is really a problematic descriptor as a genre. It's really more of an element of style, rather then substance, which what genre usually is about.
For instance, it's very easy to tell if something is Sci-fi, because it's set in the future, has futuristic gadgets/society etc. Likewise Fantasy. It's easy to tell if something is a mystery (there's a mystery -> characters solve it). But what solid thing can you point to with "psychological", character introspection? Most "quality" anime (or film) contain character introspection, examining the states of the people taking part. Most of the elements that mark out "psychological" anime are present, albeit usually to a lesser extent, in almost all anime. You can't draw a concrete line between what is and isn't psychological. That said, the stuff that does get the label of "psychological" is stuff that I quite like. I just find it's not really a proper genre. "Battle" is more of an anime genre, but it doesn't get used as much. I think the type of anime people here are complaining about is "arthouse anime", and personally I'm on the side of the people who don't like it. There are a few unique occasions where I can tolerate it, but by and large I hate it. I like ineresting artistic layered narratives, but I don't like long stretches of characters not talking, or not doing anything. I would say the vast vast majority of film goers don't like these kind of films (or books) either. Those who do are a vocal minority, who also tend to often be critics. It's a similiar group of people to the types who like abstract modern art, whereas the vast majority of the population by far prefer classical or modern representational art. To give a good example, among hong kong film lovers, two films from the 90s tend to be particularly well thought of: Hard Boiled and Chungking Express. Hard Boiled is the John Woo wall to wall action film, with guys shooting guns while flying throught the air, and huge explosions. Chungking Express is the Wong Kar Wai thoughtful, slow film meditating on hong kong, and love, with very little dialogue or action. If you were to sit people down and ask them to watch both, most people will by far prefer Hard Boiled, as it's very exciting and accessible. Chungking Express will bore most people. I quite liked Chungking Express, but Chungking Express is positively action packed compared to most of Wong Kar Wai's other films, which I've found almost universally sleep inducing, but are usually darlings for the critics. Personally, I think Hard Boiled is by far the superior film, even if it's writing is a bit flaky. Critics are actually usually pretty good about assessing films, but I think their views are at odds with most audiences regarding these types of films. |
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critical thinking, japan, opinions, pop culture |
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