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Old 2012-06-24, 23:03   Link #61
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
How long after something has aired, until we're free to post without spoiler tags? There has to be some cutoff where we can freely state that Dark Vader is Luke's father. Because even that would bother someone, since they can claim "some people haven't seen Star Wars yet." And given the OP's post, it should have been obvious that Madoka discussion would be taking place within since, ya know, people would have been discussing why it was good or not good.
I did say in the very first reply in this thread:

Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
For the moment I'll allow the thread to stay open... but I reserve the right to close it at any time. To others who might participate in this thread, please don't post Madoka spoilers here or make this another Madoka review/criticism thread.
Although Madoka was used as an example, this is not a Madoka thread. This thread is only allowed in this sub-forum because it's a general discussion thread. General discussion threads should not have major spoilers in them.
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Old 2012-06-24, 23:35   Link #62
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I did say in the very first reply in this thread:

Although Madoka was used as an example, this is not a Madoka thread. This thread is only allowed in this sub-forum because it's a general discussion thread. General discussion threads should not have major spoilers in them.
Oh crap! I honestly forgot about that General Thread spoiler rules.

But itís kinda difficult since the OP wants to discuss mainly about Madoka. If spoilers canít be helped, maybe the posts here can be put under the Madoka Thread?
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Old 2012-06-24, 23:45   Link #63
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Oh crap! I honestly forgot about that General Thread spoiler rules.

But it’s kinda difficult since the OP wants to discuss mainly about Madoka. If spoilers can’t be helped, maybe the posts here can be put under the Madoka Thread?
He mistitled the thread then... the thread title is "Questions About Magical Girl Genre".... with thread creation power comes great responsibility
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Old 2012-06-24, 23:48   Link #64
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Originally Posted by Guernsey View Post
Then again the same can be said of most the characters in Madoka, they were flat and othe only purpose they served is to reinforce the story's themes (or Urobutcher's sadism).
I believe I mentioned earlier that I thought the characters in that series besides Kyubey and Sayaka (somewhat) were dull. But at least that's an improvement over the other magical girl stuff I've seen, where I thought all of the characters were dull.

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Old 2012-06-25, 00:06   Link #65
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Just as a suggestion, it may be helpful to place the spoiler, as well as all other policies and rules, in one place, at the top of the main forum page. I looked around a bit, but didn't see it until it was pointed out.

Also, it can tend to dampen discussion, if people aren't free to discuss aspects of shows that have long since aired; Madoka was done over a year ago. According to the spoiler rules, even saying Darth was Luke's father would thus require a spoiler. If we spend any time in the real world, we are going to run into people talking about things that have already happened, that perhaps we haven't seen yet. It's just something that we as humans need to accept.

Originally Posted by Solace View Post
It's apples and oranges to compare Madoka and Nanoha, either in the title characters development or the shows named after them. I don't like comparing the two, but it's inevitable that it happens in these discussions.
Yes and no. It depends on how they are being compared. From my perspective, it is more a matter of the type of character I can more readily identify with, and thus empathize with. So, for instance, I can actually empathize more with Sayaka, who is more like Nanoha, then I can with Madoka. The tone and direction of the series has little to do with it; it's all in how the characters react to the situations they are in.

Thus, Classified's issues with being unable to empathize with most MG types, as they tend to be whiny, weaker, girly, etc. At least, that's the vibe I was getting from him, based on my own feelings. For me, it's not male or female, but the attitude, regardless of tone.

Hell, "Now and Then, Here and There" was even darker than Madoka, and yet I could identify with Shu as a character.
Spoiler for possible Madoka spoilers:

It should also be pointed out that Nanoha has a mountain of material to flesh everything out which Madoka lacks, due to age (Nanoha is almost a decade old now and a much more complete story as a result of an expansive franchise). This makes it even more difficult to compare the two.
While partially true, I should note the extra materials weren't a factor in my case, when I first watched it. After I had burned through all three seasons, I was already saying "yes yes YES, finally!" to Nanoha's character; it really felt like there had really been no other character I could more readily identify with, in any series or show. Someone who kept her cool and made rational decisions. Who thought about things intelligently, and who wasn't afraid to jump in and fight with all her might when called for. She didn't run, hide, or become emo. She didn't break down every other episode.

Before anyone thinks I fanboy over this series, let me state that I do know it has some issues; I don't blind myself to them in single-minded praise.

Besides all of that, if the biggest complaint is that Madoka is too "girly", maybe it's because too many "strong" women in fiction are basically men in female bodies, often with all of the eye candy and social stereotyping that comes from being oriented toward a male audience.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this honestly feels like you're trying to stereotype here. Nanoha was very much a woman, and yet still strong. At no time did I ever feel she was a man in a woman's body. It sounds like you're saying that a female character must be "girly" or else she is manly. One can be feminine and strong.

Spoiler for Spoilers for Nanoha StrikerS just in case:

I will say that it feels like far too many manga/anime writers seem to be male, and really don't seem to have much of an idea of how to write a female character. I even think I read that Kishimoto(author of Naruto) once said that he didn't really know how to write a heroine, with regards to Sakura, and it shows. So when the rare "Nanoha" type comes along, I savor it.

I should also note that many other female characters in the Nanoha series came across as strong, without being "manly." Fate, Hayate, Teana, Subaru... they had strengths and weaknesses as characters, uniquely feminine.
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Old 2012-06-30, 18:26   Link #66
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Well, this discussion has gotten interesting. Certainly, as I've said before that this genre has more female characters that are strong on their own, and not just strong in the "male sex fantasy" way but their being their own independent entities rather than being a satellite of a typically male character. The worst fictional female characters are the ones that show up all strong and badass, but get nerfed by sexist writers as it passes. >.> Personally, my favorite characters tend to be the strong type, but I tend to get pissed when they try to force traditional gender roles on them. Misato from Evangelion tends to go against this pretty well, while still maintaining traditionally attractive traits. There's also Mai Tokiha from Mai-HiME who is a badass and well rounded character that comes from a series that's pretty much magical girl in all but name.

That being said, I don't think being able to relate to them is that needed. I don't even necessarily have to like them all that much, it's more about being understandable. If a character is annoying or spineless, there better be a good reason why, for example. And of course, I feel that it is needed to realize that everyone makes mistakes, and not everyone behaves optimally. Everyone acts and thinks differently, thus it can lead to many different results. While it is endearing to see those with similarities to myself, it would be pretty boring to have a world where everyone thought like me. That would be bad.

On a personal level, I actually tend to relate to other characters' flaws more for my favorites. :S I think it's because that kind of thing leads to development in overcoming or dealing with these problems, and also a reminder that these are also people that are good deep down and do stupid things but are ultimately human. I don't really care if one labels a character by categories such as weak and strong. As for shows like Madoka, that's what worked for me.
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Old 2012-06-30, 19:35   Link #67
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To me, I do try to put myself into the character's shoe. The gender didn't prevent me from doing so, but more like the actions of the character and if their value align with mine. I strongly dislike "now and then, here and there" because basically the main char do things completely opposite than I do. So when the main char get into trouble I don't feel anything simply because I think he brought it on himself. I love "Infinite Ryvius" because while lots of people think the main char is weak and useless, I found that if I am in his shoe that I cannot do much better than him.

While saying that, putting yourself into the character's shoe should not be the ONLY way to enjoy a show. Sure you are not a 10 year old girl, but you also will not have a harem with girls coming out of nowhere and live with you either.
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Old 2012-06-30, 23:47   Link #68
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To be fair,

i'm a 20y male, and i don't really get how i should be able to enjoy magical girl animes
There is nothing wrong with this thought process, as Magical Girl shows are for the most part, created with small young girls in mind.
If you're a 20 year old male, you're not the demographic for it.

Fans of magical girl genre that does not fit the demographics, are pretty much the otaku-equivalent of bronies.

Basically the thread's problem starts with his next paragraph and on, focusing in Madoka Magica.
Which is actually a title made with older, male otaku as its primary demographics, unlike the vast majority of Magical Girls genre.

My take is... no, it's absolutely not wrong to not understand or like a genre that simply doesn't fit your taste.
Just be tolerant if others have different taste, and finds entertaining depth where you don't see one.
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