[PC] Koi to Senkyo to Chocolate (Love, Election, and Chocolate)

[hyl]

It should be a similar cg with Chisato and the 2 monkeys but with "Yume" added.

edit: only had the time now to make screenshots of that scene plus Yume as Luca.

[Zetsuen_no_Myuu]

Many people played Chisato's route and like her a lot, but after playing the routes of the other girls, some people come to dislike Chisato. I haven't played the game, but going by the anime, I find Chisato very lovable and awesome. I'm fond her interactions with Yuuki and do think they make a good couple.

So I'm very curious about how some people dislike her in other routes, so could someone kindly provide me a summary on how Chisato acted or what she did in the other routes that could make people dislike her? Please try to be objective and avoid taking things out of context.

[hyl]

Warning: actual route spoilers this time.

Spoiler for spoilers for Chisato in Isara's story:

Chisato became extremely jealous of Isara, because Oojima obviously fell for Isara in that route. When Yuuki decided that they should focus their elections to fight the discrmination problem, Chisato decided to drop out of the team because she was questioning if he was doing the elections for the sake of the club or rather for Isara. Because of this internal conflict started by her, other members (first starting with Mifuyu, then the 2 monkeys ) also decided to leave the team. Due to other problems and misunderstandings at one point, only Isara and Yuuki were left for the elections. Making the situation seem hopeless.
Even after most of the members rekindled later on, Chisato still insisted being stubborn and angry at Isara. Chisto started to act more normal after Isara got hit by a car, because of Chisato's recklessness.

Spoiler for Chisato in Mifuyu's story:

While i don't like Chisato in this story, it was mostly the fault of Mifuyu as well. Near the end of the route Chisato knew that Mifuyu and Yuuki were hiding their relation and she lashed out at Mifuyu for stealing Yuuki away from her. Causing Mifuyu to run away while it was raining, which may or may not be the reason for the extra drama at the end when Mifuyu ended up in the hospital because of her weaker consititution.

[Zetsuen_no_Myuu]

I've read that...

Spoiler for Spoilers:

Chisato confronted Mifuyu in order to slap (literally) some sense into her and to tell her to not look down on their friendship since she knew that Mifuyu and Yuuki liked each other side middle school and that she didn't care about that since they are friends.

Is that not true?

[hyl]

Originally Posted by Eternal Aselia

I've read that...

Spoiler for Spoilers:

Chisato confronted Mifuyu in order to slap (literally) some sense into her and to tell her to not look down on their friendship since she knew that Mifuyu and Yuuki liked each other side middle school and that she didn't care about that since they are friends.

Is that not true?

Spoiler for spoilers:

The problem was that Mifuyu was acting unnatural (caused by her guilt) near the end by forcing Yuuki (in a very non subtile way and it failed badly) to Chisato. This was probably in chisato's eyes the biggest betrayal of their friendship.
The part when when Yuuki and Chisato found her reasons for it was near the end at the hopsital after the 2 read Mifuyu's entire diary in the laptop. I am not exactly sure if Chisato knew that Mifuyu liked Yuuki since middle school, but i will reread that in a moment.

edit

Spoiler for spoilers for rereading that scene again:

Chisato was mad mostly for the betrayal and that Mifuyu's way of forcing Chisato and Yuuki together wouldn't make any of the three happy. There was no mention of anything that Chisato would have supported the 2 if they wouldn't have hidden te relation.

edit: i almost forgot about something

Spoiler for game spoilers related to chocolate :

There was one other route when chocolate and Chisato's brother was mentioned. It was in fact in Mifuyu's story. So if the anime wants to use the Chocolate part of Koi to senkyo to chocolate, they can also choose Mifuyu's story instead of just Chisato.

[Zetsuen_no_Myuu]

I see. Alright.

What about in the other routes besides those two?

[hyl]

Originally Posted by Eternal Aselia

I see. Alright.

What about in the other routes besides those two?

Spoiler for spoilers:

Nothing big, she reluctantly accepted the relations in Michiru and Satsuki's stories without adding any serious drama in those routes. That's why i didn't bother mentioning anything from those routes

[relentlessflame]

Spoiler for Chisato in all Koichoco routes:

Basically, the issue is that Chisato is very much the central heroine in the story (you are forced by the game to play her route first), and no matter the route (except for hers) you have to go through something of a painful "breakup" scene with her (even though they're not going out) before your relationship with the chosen heroine will move forward. How she reacts is indeed different in each route, as hyl said. I think the issue is that, if you like Chisato, playing all the other routes forces you to see four painful rejections, so it's a bit frustrating. If you didn't like Chisato all that much, though, forcing you through those breakup scenes is even more frustrating, particularly when she "gets in the way" (even though you didn't choose her, she still hogs the spotlight to some degree).

All that to say, more than most eroge/VNs, the story attempt to "punish" the reader with guilt if they don't choose the canon heroine, even though it's necessary to follow the other routes to clear the game and see the other sides of the story. So I think that's where the frustration comes from.

I think, as far as the anime goes, they can get away with whatever they want because even going through one rejection scene wouldn't be that bad (since the viewers haven't seen the opposite side yet, and they don't have to go through multiple painful variations).

[Zetsuen_no_Myuu]

Originally Posted by hyl

Spoiler for spoilers:

Nothing big, she reluctantly accepted the relations in Michiru and Satsuki's stories without adding any serious drama in those routes. That's why i didn't bother mentioning anything from those routes

So really only in Mifuyu and Isara's routes did Chisato became unlikable for some people. I can understand if people dislike her in Isara's route, but for Mifuyu's route, it's still unclear to me.

Let me see if I have this right.

Spoiler for ...:

Chisato confronted Mifuyu over her betrayal, but also because she couldn't take it anymore with Mifuyu pushing Yuuki and her together. The reason Chisato is even mad over the latter reason is because Mifuyu was actually causing both of them pains because Yuuki likes Mifuyu and Chisato was torn between being mad at her friend and wanting Yuuki and from wanting Mifuyu and Yuuki's to be happy).

If I'm wrong anywhere, please correct me.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Spoiler for Chisato in all Koichoco routes:

Basically, the issue is that Chisato is very much the central heroine in the story (you are forced by the game to play her route first), and no matter the route (except for hers) you have to go through something of a painful "breakup" scene with her (even though they're not going out) before your relationship with the chosen heroine will move forward. How she reacts is indeed different in each route, as hyl said. I think the issue is that, if you like Chisato, playing all the other routes forces you to see four painful rejections, so it's a bit frustrating. If you didn't like Chisato all that much, though, forcing you through those breakup scenes is even more frustrating, particularly when she "gets in the way" (even though you didn't choose her, she still hogs the spotlight to some degree).

All that to say, more than most eroge/VNs, the story attempt to "punish" the reader with guilt if they don't choose the canon heroine, even though it's necessary to follow the other routes to clear the game and see the other sides of the story. So I think that's where the frustration comes from.

I think, as far as the anime goes, they can get away with whatever they want because even going through one rejection scene wouldn't be that bad (since the viewers haven't seen the opposite side yet, and they don't have to go through multiple painful variations).

Your points and opinions are understandable. Just from another perspective though, I think Chisato being jealous is natural considering her personality, history with Yuuki, and truly loving Yuuki and sees the other other girls as the one getting in the way instead. If that is so, then if the writing in each route didn't have Chisato acting the way she did and go through the four things you noted, would you still consider the writing to be of the same quality?

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Eternal Aselia

Your points and opinions are understandable. Just from another perspective though, I think Chisato being jealous is natural considering her personality, history with Yuuki, and truly loving Yuuki and sees the other other girls as the one getting in the way instead. If that is so, then if the writing in each route didn't have Chisato acting the way she did and go through the four things you noted, would you still consider the writing to be of the same quality?

Well, I think there's "the quality of the writing", and there's "reading things you find enjoyable to read", and they're not necessarily a direct correlation. I think that what they did was necessary to the author's concept of the work, but I can also see why it may annoy some people.

Spoiler for Koichoco central premise and themes:

Basically, this way they are making an acknowledgement, whether tacit or explicit, of the "chocolate" theme that was setup in the common route. In many eroge, they write the story such that the common route sets up many themes, and depending on the route you choose it resolves some of them, so that on the composite you get a full understanding of all the themes. This game still does that to some degree, but they are trying to acknowledge this particular element no matter which route you chose. This is better if you think of each route as completely separate, but the fact is that every novel reader will have already read Chisato's route, so it's a bit redundant. If it were the reverse and they saved Chisato's route for last, then it might arguably make more sense, because then there is a reward after all the heartbreak... but that also has its downsides in terms of helping explain what the story is really about.

I assume that the director and writer spent a fair bit of time debating this structural decision and the impact on the story. I am curious to see if they will preserve this decision in the upcoming PSP port, as there will likely be some people who will be the game just to play the new Nonchan route.

All that being said... I'm not sure that I'd point to this particular issue as speaking to the "quality of the writing" one way or another, personally. To me, it was more some of the odd plot elements and twists that gave me pause when reading. I think this particular element, on the other hand, is more of a concious choice that you either like or you don't. It does have a logic to it as presented, but it could have been done in other ways too.

[Snuffle]

Originally Posted by hyl

Warning: actual route spoilers this time.

Spoiler for spoilers for Chisato in Isara's story:

Chisato became extremely jealous of Isara, because Oojima obviously fell for Isara in that route. When Yuuki decided that they should focus their elections to fight the discrmination problem, Chisato decided to drop out of the team because she was questioning if he was doing the elections for the sake of the club or rather for Isara. Because of this internal conflict started by her, other members (first starting with Mifuyu, then the 2 monkeys ) also decided to leave the team. Due to other problems and misunderstandings at one point, only Isara and Yuuki were left for the elections. Making the situation seem hopeless.
Even after most of the members rekindled later on, Chisato still insisted being stubborn and angry at Isara. Chisto started to act more normal after Isara got hit by a car, because of Chisato's recklessness.

Spoiler for just commenting on Isara route:

That scene ticked me off so much, the way it happened made me unable to shelter my anger towards Chisato.

Originally Posted by Eternal Aselia

I think Chisato being jealous is natural considering her personality, history with Yuuki, and truly loving Yuuki and sees the other other girls as the one getting in the way instead.

Being jealous is one thing, but being jealous to the point of piss angry and cutting off all communication is just immature. She could have at least tried to convince Yuuki somehow to love her instead but she acts like a child who's toy has been taken away (this is about Isara's route btw).

[hyl]

Originally Posted by Eternal Aselia

Spoiler for ...:

Chisato confronted Mifuyu over her betrayal, but also because she couldn't take it anymore with Mifuyu pushing Yuuki and her together. The reason Chisato is even mad over the latter reason is because Mifuyu was actually causing both of them pains because Yuuki likes Mifuyu and Chisato was torn between being mad at her friend and wanting Yuuki and from wanting Mifuyu and Yuuki's to be happy).

Spoiler for more added spoilers:

I think the problem was that Yuuki will never be happy with chisato, because he truly loved Mifuyu. Because Chisato had a strong suspicion about this, she tried to confirm this by confessing to Yuuki before she ended getting rejected. Then the next day Chisato confronted Yuuki and Mifuyu,

So in the end all 3 got hurt by Mifuyu's actions.
Not wanting to hurt others while at the same time being afraid of getting hurt yourself was the main theme of Mifuyu's route.
I think it was nicely reflected in the ending song of Mifuyu's story "傷つけられるより傷つけるほうが痛いよ、なんて.."

As for my own opinion of the writing, i don't think the writing was that good seeing that a few things were either overly dramatic, somewhat silly or too convenient for the plot . Like for example Michiru's special ability , all the nonsense at the end of Chisato's story (>_>') or how many times people (almost) get hit by cars in all the stories.
But still, most of the stories were enjoyable.

I have my copy of the psp port already pre-ordered to play Non-chan's route and to see the minor changes (added and removed scenes because it will be a VN and not an eroge)

[Zetsuen_no_Myuu]

@relentlessflame
You have me some food for thought, and I do get what you're saying and the points you made.

I'll just say this, the base route concept is pretty cool and since used Chisato, the default canon girl as the base route, then it's only natural and logical for her to be present and involved in the other route.

Originally Posted by Snuffle

Being jealous is one thing, but being jealous to the point of piss angry and cutting off all communication is just immature. She could have at least tried to convince Yuuki somehow to love her instead but she acts like a child who's toy has been taken away (this is about Isara's route btw).

I don't know enough about what happened in Isara's route, so I can't really comment or judge Chisato. I'm curious though, did Chisato ever receive focus/insight behind her mentality or state of mind in Isara's route?

Originally Posted by hyl

Spoiler for more added spoilers:

I think the problem was that Yuuki will never be happy with chisato, because he truly loved Mifuyu. Because Chisato had a strong suspicion about this, she tried to confirm this by confessing to Yuuki before she ended getting rejected. Then the next day Chisato confronted Yuuki and Mifuyu,

So in the end all 3 got hurt by Mifuyu's actions.
Not wanting to hurt others while at the same time being afraid of getting hurt yourself was the main theme of Mifuyu's route.
I think it was nicely reflected in the ending song of Mifuyu's story "傷つけられるより傷つけるほうが痛いよ、なんて.."

That was well put. And it seemed like that theme was applied to the three of them.

As for my own opinion of the writing, i don't think the writing was that good seeing that a few things were either overly dramatic, somewhat silly or too convenient for the plot . Like for example Michiru's special ability , all the nonsense at the end of Chisato's story (>_>') or how many times people (almost) get hit by cars in all the stories.
But still, most of the stories were enjoyable.

I have my copy of the psp port already pre-ordered to play Non-chan's route and to see the minor changes (added and removed scenes because it will be a VN and not an eroge)

This series and cars....

I believe enjoyability usually matters more, so that's good.

Non-chan is going to be the...most awesome and fun route. I can feel it. ^

[hyl]

Spoiler for episode 7 comparison:

So we have the onsen scene from Chisato's route, but the drunken Hazuki scene plus Oojima hiding in satsuki's room from Satsuki's route. It is not a definite clue that the anime could be going for Satsuki because they can use this to fix her problems with Hazuki first while avoid picking her route

[Mura]

Spoiler for Just seen episode 7:

The episode preview didn't suggest this but did anything happen between Satsuki and Yuuki after she took off her jacket? That certainly looked like a flag for a sex scene to happen.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Mura

Spoiler for Just seen episode 7:

The episode preview didn't suggest this but did anything happen between Satsuki and Yuuki after she took off her jacket? That certainly looked like a flag for a sex scene to happen.

Spoiler for Episode 7 anime/game comparison:

No, it's too soon for anything like that. I would also say that the anime isn't following the game exactly either.

It's not a game where people have casual sex or anything. The ero scenes only happen after each couple starts going out... with one particular starred exception for story reasons that doesn't involve Satsuki.

[Mura]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Spoiler for Episode 7 anime/game comparison:

No, it's too soon for anything like that. I would also say that the anime isn't following the game exactly either.

It's not a game where people have casual sex or anything. The ero scenes only happen after each couple starts going out... with one particular starred exception for story reasons that doesn't involve Satsuki.

Spoiler:

I see, well Satsuki just seemed quite alluring right there so I had to question it.

It is nice to know that an ero scene happens after they have a relationship established as it makes it more touching in my opinion. I am curious on the exception that you mentioned though.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Mura

Spoiler:

I am curious on the exception that you mentioned though.

Spoiler for Game mid-route Spoilers:

Well, it's more of a story-related technicality, and was already alluded to before in this thread. It's still the case that all sex scenes occur between people who are very much in love with each other, so no "casual sex".

Spoiler for Technical Exception to the 'no-sex-before-dating' rule:

It's Mifuyu. As you know from the anime she's very much in love with Yuuki, but she's trying to be loyal to Chisato. A large part of her route amounts with her playing with fire, and then immediately regretting it/feeling terribly guilty. She and Yuuki both love each other, and she agrees to have sex with him, but she keeps trying to deny her feelings and make it a one time thing. She thinks she has no right to be happy with Yuuki because she'd be betraying Chisato.

Basically, the whole plot plays out as if it were an adulterous relationship and Yuuki were cheating on Chisato, even though Chisato's love for Yuuki is one-sided in this route. That's the central drama element for most of her path until the end (when another element takes over).

[hyl]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Spoiler for Technical Exception to the 'no-sex-before-dating' rule:

It's Mifuyu. As you know from the anime she's very much in love with Yuuki, but she's trying to be loyal to Chisato. A large part of her route amounts with her playing with fire, and then immediately regretting it/feeling terribly guilty. She and Yuuki both love each other, and she agrees to have sex with him, but she keeps trying to deny her feelings and make it a one time thing. She thinks she has no right to be happy with Yuuki because she'd be betraying Chisato.

Basically, the whole plot plays out as if it were an adulterous relationship and Yuuki were cheating on Chisato, even though Chisato's love for Yuuki is one-sided in this route. That's the central drama element for most of her path until the end (when another element takes over).

Spoiler for spoilers Mifuyu:

While their first H-scene started before they have ever dated at that point of the story, they didn't even date at all in that route.

I don't think that dating was needed for them, seeing that they already have an established relation as friends for some years . They even shared a kiss before going into the first guilt trip. As a result the first H-scene was a spur of the moment of fixing their relation damaged by that guilt trip.

edit:

Spoiler for more technicalities:

X_x

In Satsuki's route,they had 2 times sex before their first date at the restaurant with cake.
And i am pretty sure Michiru and Isara had their 2nd H-scene at the love hotel after their first date.

But if you meant by "no-sex-before-dating" : expressing their love for eachother before their first sex, then it is true for every character.

Spoiler for anime:

Anyways i am not entirely convinced that the anime is heading towards Satsuki yet, so it depends on how the next episode turns out to be. If Yuuki and Satsuki's relationship won't grow after Satsuki has rekindled her relation with Hazuki then the anime is not going for her route.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by hyl

Spoiler for more technicalities:

But if you meant by "no-sex-before-dating" : expressing their love for eachother before their first sex, then it is true for every character.

Spoiler for Response to game route discussion:

Yes, sorry. I didn't mean dating in the literal sense like "going out on dates". I meant "until they were in some sort of committed relationship"; they agreed to "go out" with each other. To me, I call that "dating", even though it's not "going out on a date".

The central point I was trying to convey was that, even though it's a game with sex scenes, there's no "sleeping around".