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Old 2012-10-14, 08:29   Link #1041
sayde
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Sounds like a nice theory. But I don't recall anyone in the manga stating such a thing to explain the cause of his zanpakuto's new appearance. Besides, I wonder how his bond with zangetsu could currently be destroyed since he's able to once again use zangetsu and all his special abilities.
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Old 2012-10-14, 08:40   Link #1042
Marcus H.
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We're not sure if it's truly Zangetsu we're seeing. His Shinigami forms post-Fullbring were much different (though similar appearance-wise), and the "Getsuga Tenshou" we saw may not be the one Zangetsu granted to him, but rather a similar ability Ichigo "learned" after unlocking his Fullbringer potential.

My theory is that the abilities of Ichigo were unlocked by his exposure to Zangetsu through countless fights plus the base abilities of a Fullbringer. Basically, Ichigo "has Zangetsu despite not having Zangetsu". Maybe that's the "potential" that has him targeted by the Shitritters?
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Old 2012-10-14, 11:24   Link #1043
sayde
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So what you're essentially claiming is that Ichigo can now use zanpakuto related forms and abilties without the need for his zanpakuto spirit because he's currently just using fullbring as a base to manifest it all? In other words, Ichigo still hasn't really gained his shinigami powers back?

Well I suppose its possible. I admittedly have trouble believing that for a lot of reasons. But its also not something I feel up to debating. It'd probably be easier to just wait and see.
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Old 2012-10-14, 11:29   Link #1044
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UGH. In the end, Kubo can't even give the strongest character a decent death, even though it was coming.

I've never, never NEVER read a series in which the author hates their side characters as much as Kubo does. Ichigo will save the day afterall, but not before having a hugeass breakdown since pretty much everyone he knows is either dead or near death.

I'm seriously praying for Kubo to kill off someone I like just so I can legititamely drop this series for good. Only good thing is at least we get to see what Squad 0 looks like now....especially Hikifune.

Otherwise, Kill this bitch already, WSJ. I think Kubo just wants it to end too.
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Old 2012-10-14, 19:26   Link #1045
Marcus H.
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sayde: Bleach has a lot of problems with expanding concepts, anyway.
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Old 2012-10-14, 19:45   Link #1046
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by Black-Cat-Sama View Post
Yeah, it's bullcrap now, that's why I was saying that idea in the Rebellion filler arc would make a bit mroe sense with it. If the soul of the sword chose to stop working for its user and even left to side with someone else, as its own being, I could buy that over 'HEY, check out this gizmo that snatches something that's supposed to be connected to you!'
Huh. I just thought they were ripping the abilities straight from the zanpakuto. It's like Ichigo getting his fullbring stolen by Ginjou, the power was just ripped out of his body, his soul wasn't taken. So the swords also got their abilities stolen, but their souls remained in the weapon. Bankais are just a manifestation of the zanpakuto's full power, it's not the actual soul of the zanpakuto fighting right?
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Old 2012-10-14, 19:52   Link #1047
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Huh. I just thought they were ripping the abilities straight from the zanpakuto. It's like Ichigo getting his fullbring stolen by Ginjou, the power was just ripped out of his body, his soul wasn't taken. So the swords also got their abilities stolen, but their souls remained in the weapon. Bankais are just a manifestation of the zanpakuto's full power, it's not the actual soul of the zanpakuto fighting right?
I believe their sword's soul were stolen or whatever...because when their bankai were stolen the captains were asking their swords to speak
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Old 2012-10-15, 00:22   Link #1048
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In the hands of a better writer, this ending to Yamamoto could have carried a lot more meaning/feeling. If you took the chapter out of its line-up and looked at in a void, it actually is rather well constructed. The problem is that in context its just abrupt and feels rather rushed, the strongest character in the series gets one shot. His struggling even in death in this chapter would have made a lot more sense if he'd struggled prior to said death but... that didn't happen. And the flashback while good, again in a void, needed more than what little was given to it. (Maybe will finally get to see Shunsui's bankai... and, this may just be me, but it really needs to be him who delivers the finishing blow on Bach. The old man is Shunsui's entire motivation in becoming who he is (and wasn't he said to have an an unique zanpakuto since there's two of them? Wouldn't surprise me if he and the other two-weapons captain weren't the special war potentials... or Unohana.) and Ichigo has as much connection this story as Chad and neither have any place killing Bach.)

Meh. I can't even figure out how stealing the old man's bankai of all things makes any sense. For the other captains I can sort of understand as they are usually weapons and take the form of weapons in some form or another (and usually only have one form and are not physically a part of the wielder or their history), but aside from the one sword form, his bankai is him. How would Bach use any of the other abilities aside from East/North (I don't even see how North is an aspect... all he does is cut, which he could do with East anyway)? The the other two (or at least his necromancy) are seemingly interlinked with the old man's own thousands of years of history, bloodshed, and regret. And it seems a little overly convenient that a man so intertwined with his weapon to the point where they form the weapon together, would so easily have his "other half" stolen.

The only thing that would really salvage this into something sensible would be if Bach trying to use the Bankai ends up completely backfiring in the form of Yamamoto's spirit usurping control of it and killing him. Otherwise its just... stupid? It takes Yama who knows how many thousands of years and countless lives to become that fire demon, and Bach will just pop it out like a Power Ranger badge and gain all its powers? The heck?
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Old 2012-10-15, 17:48   Link #1049
Black-Cat-Sama
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Huh. I just thought they were ripping the abilities straight from the zanpakuto. It's like Ichigo getting his fullbring stolen by Ginjou, the power was just ripped out of his body, his soul wasn't taken. So the swords also got their abilities stolen, but their souls remained in the weapon. Bankais are just a manifestation of the zanpakuto's full power, it's not the actual soul of the zanpakuto fighting right?
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Originally Posted by SeanQ View Post
I believe their sword's soul were stolen or whatever...because when their bankai were stolen the captains were asking their swords to speak
What SeanQ said. As far as we are lead to believe (and from my knowledge of the old Bleach days...it's been a while since I've gone back that far), the Zanpaktou is a manifestation of the soul of the user. All of its abilities and whatnot come from the user and constantly symbolize the user's power/potential. Knowing the name of the zanpaktou helps to increase the power of these abilities...

So, in the Zanpaktou rebellion arc, Muramasa was persuading each Zanpaktou to betray their owners based on the premise that each Zanpaktou felt their owner had a flaw that was holding them back. (Hitsugaya's sword didnt believe such a young/inexperienced person could be his master, Mastumoto's sword was so much like her they didn't get along, etc etc.)

And when the Zanpaktou spirits left the blade, the whole swords lost their abilities. They were just objects. So, theoretically, it should be impossible to STEAL one aspect of the spirit dwelling within the swords. The Sternritter should either SEAL the swords of the users, or take all the powers that come wiht it...not just steal one form the blade can take...since that should be impossible...but w/e
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Old 2012-10-15, 21:32   Link #1050
Sabaku Kyu
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And when the Zanpaktou spirits left the blade, the whole swords lost their abilities. They were just objects. So, theoretically, it should be impossible to STEAL one aspect of the spirit dwelling within the swords. The Sternritter should either SEAL the swords of the users, or take all the powers that come wiht it...not just steal one form the blade can take...since that should be impossible...but w/e
As Nodt implied that shikai can still be used, because he told Byakuya that it was impossible to defeat his own bankai using just his shikai (granted, we don't actually see Bya use his shikai after that). Also it's always been said that the Vandereich steal the bankai ability exclusively. It seems like they definitely can't steal shikai, which is why after Renji attacks with shikai, As Nodt remarks he was waiting for bankai.

Sean Q did bring up a good point that the scene with Hitsugaya made it seem like his zanpakuto had totally lost its power and soul. So maybe when bankai is stolen, it does steal everything, and they only steal bankai because it's necessary to know the sword's full potential before taking its power. I guess the only other explanation is that the zanpakuto is stunned or unconscious right after its bankai is taken.
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Old 2012-10-15, 21:37   Link #1051
sayde
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when the Zanpaktou spirits left the blade, the whole swords lost their abilities. They were just objects. So, theoretically, it should be impossible to STEAL one aspect of the spirit dwelling within the swords.
IIRC, the shinigami were still able to at least use shikai after regaining a bit of resolve. They didn't need to regain dominance over their respective zanpakuto spirits before they could start using some of their zanpakuto's abilities once more. However, they did need to regain control over the spirit before they could use bankai again. So in that sense, the situations are still somewhat similar.

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Huh. I just thought they were ripping the abilities straight from the zanpakuto. It's like Ichigo getting his fullbring stolen by Ginjou, the power was just ripped out of his body, his soul wasn't taken.
I interpreted Rukia's comments a little differently during that arc. That's to say, while the entirety of Ichigo's soul wasn't taken, a portion of it probably was since these spiritual based abilities are all born from and are powered by the soul. So since she stated that what Ginjou stole was merely "the top layer" of Ichigo's power--The layer that had merged with his fullbring--it got me to start thinking of all this from a slightly different perspective. So thanks for bringing this up.

If Ichigo's "power" is tantamount to Ichigo's "soul" and a specific part of his abilities were attached to a specific layer of his soul, then perhaps these Quincy's have used a similar basis of knowledge to develop their bankai stealing method.

Consider this. We can at least all agree on the notion that a zanpakuto's abilities are born from and are connected to the soul of the shinigami. So with that said, what if we entertained the thought of all the key aspects that produce a shinigami's power being composed in layers within the soul? Would it really be so unbelievable within the context of this universe for a method to be developed which would allow for a specific layer of a soul to be extracted?
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Old 2012-10-16, 14:09   Link #1052
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I wish this arc got an anime adaptation, Maaaaan
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Old 2012-10-16, 14:13   Link #1053
MihawkXGP
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In the hands of a better writer, this ending to Yamamoto could have carried a lot more meaning/feeling. If you took the chapter out of its line-up and looked at in a void, it actually is rather well constructed. The problem is that in context its just abrupt and feels rather rushed, the strongest character in the series gets one shot. His struggling even in death in this chapter would have made a lot more sense if he'd struggled prior to said death but... that didn't happen. And the flashback while good, again in a void, needed more than what little was given to it. (Maybe will finally get to see Shunsui's bankai... and, this may just be me, but it really needs to be him who delivers the finishing blow on Bach. The old man is Shunsui's entire motivation in becoming who he is (and wasn't he said to have an an unique zanpakuto since there's two of them? Wouldn't surprise me if he and the other two-weapons captain weren't the special war potentials... or Unohana.) and Ichigo has as much connection this story as Chad and neither have any place killing Bach.)


The only thing that would really salvage this into something sensible would be if Bach trying to use the Bankai ends up completely backfiring in the form of Yamamoto's spirit usurping control of it and killing him. Otherwise its just... stupid? It takes Yama who knows how many thousands of years and countless lives to become that fire demon, and Bach will just pop it out like a Power Ranger badge and gain all its powers? The heck?
I'd much rather see Shunsui & Ukitake team up together with their respective bankai's and take down Juha Bach. It makes more sense imo. Even Yamamoto said the team work between the 2 of them is completely unrivaled by anyone that has ever come b4 them - and the first major battle we saw them in was against Yamamoto.

I'd rather see that, but instead will probably see Ichigo save the day - though i really cannot see how the hell his power alone can over come Quincy abilities AND Zanka No Tachi.


Quote:
How would Bach use any of the other abilities aside from East/North (I don't even see how North is an aspect... all he does is cut, which he could do with East anyway)?
With East, he touches them with his blade, and burns them out of existance.
North he swings his sword at something, and it reduces it to ashes - through the immense heat...
They aren't the same.
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Old 2012-10-16, 14:30   Link #1054
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I don't know why everyone assumes Ichigo will be able to just "save the day". Kubo has established some realism. Even when Ichigo fought against Aizen in Karakura, he was only able to make one hit only when Aizen had his guard down by being caught by surprise by Yamamoto's kido. He was only able to stand on equal footing when he attained the Final Gatsuga Tensho that Aizen basically allowed by destroying the cleaner.
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Old 2012-10-16, 15:15   Link #1055
SeanQ
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I don't know why everyone assumes Ichigo will be able to just "save the day the day". Kubo has established some realism. Even when Ichigo fought against Aizen in Karakura, he was only able to make one hit only when Aizen had his guard down by being caught by surprise by Yamamoto's kido. He was only able to stand on equal footing when he attained the Final Gatsuga Tensho that Aizen basically allowed by destroying the cleaner.

Don't see any realism in any of that =p
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Old 2012-10-16, 16:29   Link #1056
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As Nodt implied that shikai can still be used, because he told Byakuya that it was impossible to defeat his own bankai using just his shikai (granted, we don't actually see Bya use his shikai after that). Also it's always been said that the Vandereich steal the bankai ability exclusively. It seems like they definitely can't steal shikai, which is why after Renji attacks with shikai, As Nodt remarks he was waiting for bankai.

Sean Q did bring up a good point that the scene with Hitsugaya made it seem like his zanpakuto had totally lost its power and soul. So maybe when bankai is stolen, it does steal everything, and they only steal bankai because it's necessary to know the sword's full potential before taking its power. I guess the only other explanation is that the zanpakuto is stunned or unconscious right after its bankai is taken.
First part: Yeah I know all of that, I'm trying to say that that makes no sense as its being portrayed in the arc and should have been more like the zanpaktou rebellion arc, where they wouldn't just be taking one state of a sword, but instead, it's whole power...the spirit..everything.

Second Part: That scene with hitsugaya did screw up a lot in terms of how the power stealing is actually working, but then again, so did Yamamoto's terrible explanation on why his Bankai couldn't be stolen--which we found out he was wrong about not too long after.

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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
IIRC, the shinigami were still able to at least use shikai after regaining a bit of resolve. They didn't need to regain dominance over their respective zanpakuto spirits before they could start using some of their zanpakuto's abilities once more. However, they did need to regain control over the spirit before they could use bankai again. So in that sense, the situations are still somewhat similar.

Yeah, they did. I was going to get to that but ran out of time at that moment. I took the regaining of their abilities (shikai) as a sign that they were beginning to udnerstand their swords and vice versa, so in a way, they were relearning what they already knew the first time to gain their powers back again. Like you said, it wasn't until they had some resolve that the powers came back...but then again, maybe I'm remembering the arc wrong

Anyways, the power to just snatc one state of the zanpaktou without completely taking the spirit of the sword, or the shikai with it, is just silly. Especially since it's the final stage of the sword...one would think you couldn't use it without taking the first stage but eh.

Or Hell, since the Quincy are master researchers and have lots of tecnology, as far as we know, they could have just been researching the captains thi whole time and founda way to mimic/copy the spirits and place said copies into other swords...so they'd have the bankais and whatnot of users--I'd buy that over what we got...but I digress.


Back on topic though, I wonder where that Clown-esque Stern Ritter is. The one that we saw his/her shoes as they were commanding Mayuri's group to kill one another. And I'm still irked that the Mohawk guy was clearly burned up by Yamamoto, but appears in the most recent chapter alive and still in pretty good shape... must be an error
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Old 2012-10-16, 16:35   Link #1057
Black-Cat-Sama
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I don't know why everyone assumes Ichigo will be able to just "save the day the day". Kubo has established some realism. Even when Ichigo fought against Aizen in Karakura, he was only able to make one hit only when Aizen had his guard down by being caught by surprise by Yamamoto's kido. He was only able to stand on equal footing when he attained the Final Gatsuga Tensho that Aizen basically allowed by destroying the cleaner.
and after all of that...he still saved the day. I don't believe Ichigo will stop the threat right now, but it'd be pretty dumb if the final arc revolves around these villians we're seeing and the main character doesn't finish them//
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Old 2012-10-16, 16:52   Link #1058
sayde
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i really cannot see how the hell his power alone can over come Quincy abilities AND Zanka No Tachi.
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Originally Posted by Kurohane View Post
I don't know why everyone assumes Ichigo will be able to just "save the day the day". Kubo has established some realism. Even when Ichigo fought against Aizen in Karakura, he was only able to make one hit only when Aizen had his guard down by being caught by surprise by Yamamoto's kido. He was only able to stand on equal footing when he attained the Final Gatsuga Tensho that Aizen basically allowed by destroying the cleaner.
Let me try to put this into some perspective. When the hougyoku started to transform Aizen, his reiatsu could no longer be felt by anyone except for Ichigo. Later on in the arc, we found out that this only happens when a beings power becomes so great, that their power puts them in an entirely different dimension of strength. This was a revelation that Aizen was forced to come to after being completely dominated by Ichigo despite not feeling his reiatsu. Basically, Ichigo's post dangai strength placed him in an even higher dimension above what Aizen had become.

Currently, no one has yet to claim anything similar about Yamamoto's reiatsu or anyone else for that matter. When Yama-jii powered up, people knew it because they can feel it. What this means is that Yama-jii's power (for as great as it was) still doesn't surpass that first dimension of power that almost everyone in this series has been confined to thus far.

On the other hand, the potential strength of Ichigo's reiatsu does not just simply lie one dimension above everyone else, but two dimensions or more. So unless Kubo decides to somehow nerf the strength Ichigo had once obtained (perhaps through some kind of explanation or by completely ignoring the issue altogether), he should easily be able to destroy Juha Bach if he can regain the power from that final bankai form. Mugetsu doesn't seem neccessary.

Last edited by sayde; 2012-10-16 at 18:19.
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Old 2012-10-16, 17:47   Link #1059
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^well said. I hope kubo remembers these power dimensions as well. i'm actually surprised and a bit discouraged that yama-jii's bankai didn't put him at at least the second dimension where evolved aizen was at. it doesn't quite make sense and leads me to believe that kubo will not be consistent with that particularly cool aspect of reiatsu. it would have been sweet if yama-jii and juha bach could get to that level. as well as even shunsui, junshiro and unohana perhaps. even kisuke... but as cool as it would be, i doubt it will happen

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I wish this arc got an anime adaptation, Maaaaan
me too... although i'm sure it will at some point, which means a smaller, denser series, like FMA. which also means the animators can take more time and perhaps bust out more episodes of the hisagi/findor quality which would be well worth waiting for =)
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Old 2012-10-16, 18:11   Link #1060
sayde
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^well said. I hope kubo remembers these power dimensions as well. i'm actually surprised and a bit discouraged that yama-jii's bankai didn't put him at at least the second dimension where evolved aizen was at. it doesn't quite make sense and leads me to believe that kubo will not be consistent with that particularly cool aspect of reiatsu. it would have been sweet if yama-jii and juha bach could get to that level. as well as even shunsui, junshiro and unohana perhaps. even kisuke... but as cool as it would be, i doubt it will happen
I fully agree with this. My current prediction on the issue is that if the leader of the Royal Guard's spiritual energy isn't hinted to being on that next dimension of strength, I'll probably lose hope on Kubo remembering this issue (much less being consistent with it).
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