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Old 2013-01-14, 00:18   Link #3601
Flying Dagger
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Well, you can't blame that guy, gold = power in this game.
I camp AH and flip stuff when I am not in the mood to farm. Although sellable items are extremely rare, they have been my primary sauce of income so far...

Sniping for a bargain for a piece that you want to use is always worth the effort though.

//

One think I like about next patch is the ability to craft possibly "high end" account bound items. I think it makes the whole gold=power (since you can buy gold, thus pay to win) scene a little better.

I cant wait to just dump something like 30m into crafting... knowing my luck I probably wouldnt get anything too worthwhile so I will have to dump another 30m...

Now here's a thought:
Should blizzard set the crafting price to the new archon pieces to be
a) accroding to average gold income expected to be earned by players via picking up gold and vendoring rares or
b) according to the inflated gold prices caused by botters?
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Old 2013-01-14, 00:22   Link #3602
Sassarai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Dagger View Post
Well, you can't blame that guy, gold = power in this game.
I camp AH and flip stuff when I am not in the mood to farm. Although sellable items are extremely rare, they have been my primary sauce of income so far...

Sniping for a bargain for a piece that you want to use is always worth the effort though.
Camping ah, sniping, and flipping stuff is totally different from trying to rip people off lol.
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Old 2013-01-14, 17:22   Link #3603
felix
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Old 2013-01-18, 04:15   Link #3604
Flying Dagger
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jay wilson gone!
Though I feel like he is the victim of a team of failures.
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Old 2013-01-18, 12:19   Link #3605
felix
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Article: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7592242994#1
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Old 2013-01-19, 19:12   Link #3606
Archon_Wing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Dagger View Post
jay wilson gone!
Though I feel like he is the victim of a team of failures.
Yea, it'd be hard to lay all the blame on him. Although he seemed to want to eschew everything good about d2 in an effort to make something new, there's no doubt that other aspects of Blizzard crippled the D3 experience that was out of Wilson's control-- poor UI, forever to implemnt pvp, server issues, AH handling....
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Old 2013-01-19, 19:45   Link #3607
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Yea, it'd be hard to lay all the blame on him. Although he seemed to want to eschew everything good about d2 in an effort to make something new, there's no doubt that other aspects of Blizzard crippled the D3 experience that was out of Wilson's control-- poor UI, forever to implemnt pvp, server issues, AH handling....
I just can't help but feel they attempted to put in WoW game elements in order to attract former WoW gamers. But they messed up because people want to play Diablo (like the instant death time limit). And the worst was when they raised the repair costs in a misguided attempt to lower inflation. With the consequence that anyone without top end gear become physically unable to break even and end up losing gold the more they play.
All in all they aren't trying to make a bad game; they just flat out have no idea what they were doing. And as such everything was in extended Beta until a few months ago.

Even Wilson admit that they betrayed the studio's motto of "release the game when it's done". The game was rushed out the door. I should never have paid full price for it.
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Old 2013-01-19, 19:49   Link #3608
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I just can't help but feel they attempted to put in WoW game elements in order to attract former WoW gamers. But they messed up because people want to play Diablo (like the instant death time limit). And the worst was when they raised the repair costs in a misguided attempt to lower inflation. With the consequence that anyone without top end gear become physically unable to break even and end up losing gold the more they play.
All in all they aren't trying to make a bad game; they just flat out have no idea what they were doing. And as such everything was in extended Beta until a few months ago.

Even Wilson admit that they betrayed the studio's motto of "release the game when it's done". The game was rushed out the door. I should never have paid full price for it.
I think they included WOW game elements because they just didn't understand Diablo. :S And it just shows. We don't want steep, rigid, defined vertical progression. And yes, they absolutely had no plan. Farming gear for the sake of farming gear with such crappy drop rates is stupid. There wasn't a light at the end of the tunnel, but merely a pit because they were too lazy to finish the bridge.

Repair costs were definitely a disaster, encouraging weak-tight play (discouraging attempts at progression). The game as of now should have been what the game should have been like at release. Sadly, the damage has already been done, and nothing will undo the frustration that was caused by the shortsightedness in the video game design. Almost all my friends have quit and don't care about how it changes since interest was sapped, and we are almost in the ranks as well. (I'm off to gw 2) It shouldn't have been like this at all.
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Old 2013-01-19, 19:58   Link #3609
Myssa Rei
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I can't say I'm surprised, given the sheer frustration the starting months caused to the people who should have been enjoying the game. This is just too little too late, in my opinion.
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Old 2013-01-19, 20:01   Link #3610
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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An Expansion might save the game. But I am not sure I would be willing to go through this all over again for any future Blizzard titles. I have never realised playing a game could be so painful.

It even affects my motivation for the SC2 expansion.
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Old 2013-01-19, 20:26   Link #3611
felix
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Frankly I don't think it makes a damn difference. What the game needs is the death of the auction house (both of them). With that gone the whole DRM might at least loosen up. Also I'm pretty sure Jay Wilson wasn't the one who wrote the story... which is #2 on the shittiest list. Everything else about the game is pretty decent, classes are cool, graphics are good, skill system IMO works (it's fun being able to switch builds at will).

[edit] #3 worst part is that maps are not random (not in my eyes), but no idea who to blame for that
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Old 2013-01-19, 21:58   Link #3612
Sugetsu
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Even Wilson admit that they betrayed the studio's motto of "release the game when it's done". The game was rushed out the door. I should never have paid full price for it.
I told you so... In the end the game just crumbled under its on weight. Blizzard is no longer the great company it once was.
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Old 2013-01-21, 02:38   Link #3613
Ithekro
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If I recall, Diablo II was a lot better after the expansion.
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Old 2013-01-21, 03:48   Link #3614
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
If I recall, Diablo II was a lot better after the expansion.
Most of its problems were easy to solve when it was an offline singleplayer game...

Anyway, D3's problem was that the team didn't make D2 and had to re-learn all the mistakes. This just isn't what we expected when we bought a sequel. And as was explained earlier, Diablo 3 wasn't finished when it was first sold.
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Old 2013-01-21, 12:59   Link #3615
Archon_Wing
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Yea, thing is that the problem is that Diablo 3 DID go through the same problems as D2 did at release. Which gives the impression that they didn't learn a damned thing and shouldn't have made many stupid decisions that could easily be seen by observing years of d2 play,

Monster luring into town? If D1/D2 didn't show anything, griefers will do anything to abuse stuff like that?
Waypoint lag into death? If D2 didn't teach us anything, we can't allow people to start a game in the middle of nowhere, because areas may take time to load. Basic mistake that makes hardcore unplayable til this very day.
Trade Window Scam? Why is there no double confirmation?
ID items-- Why is there no NPC to ID all items? Do you think anyone would enjoy ID'ing everything manually? Why else would people in d2 get a early quest reward for Cain to ID all your items. Oh, but we killed Cain! That shouldn't affect gameplay.
Forced cinematic that must be skipped each time you encounter a boss-- bad for action RPGs
4 player max. What the fuck? Oh, did they not realize people enjoyed playing in big games? Not just D2. Every fucking Blizz game since 1998? Don't give me the technical limitations crap when Blizzard has managed to force it in the grand majority of their titles at the cost of making it look pretty. Diablo 1 had 4 players... but that was what? 18 years ago? Starcraft 2 can have practically a thousand things happening at once...

The ultimate downfall of D3 was prioritizing the economy over making a good game. Many "changes" such as increased repair costs and the IAS nerf were attempts to stabilize the economy. All so that gold on the RMAH has some kind of value. And with that, they made sure D3 was a better economy simulator than a ARPG. Both are atrocious changes. Unfair repair costs discourage experimentation. IAS nerf ensured that the only thing to stack offensively was Crit Chance, Crit Damage, and more Crit Damage. Yes Crit damage >>> Main Stat by far. It's stupid. 1.03 was a worthless piece of turd that singlehandedly wiped out my friend's list.

I'm not opposed to the AH. The AH is the only thing that makes the game playable. People need to trade in a secure environment without scamming. I don't want to spam trade chat channels and having to deal with potential morons and idiots upfront. But it cannot be the primary focus.

The economy relies on scarcity-- being unable to find some of what you need. If you are able to find everything you need, then you don't need to buy. It's fine to have an economy for "luxury" items, but the game at release was heavily biased towards buying for basic gameplay instead of just getting extra upgrades because it is a boon.

Guild Wars 2 isn't the best comparison, but since D3's so MMO'ified anyways, let's compare it. The Guild Wars 2 economy runs on luxury. Drop rates are generally poor, but there's a train of bottom tier items that are practically guaranteed and basically standardized so that you will have at least a functional gear set as long as you play. Standardized, usable, and easily attained gear with little variety in rolls. This is something fucking D1 got right. With how unreliable drops are in D3, you are guaranteed squat on D3. In Gw2, you buy equipment to propel yourself. In D3, you buy equipment so you can actually even think of touching the content. Why does an unequipped character do 20 dps? Really?

The patch changes in D3 have shifted the AH into becoming more of an option rather than a requirement. But it's still heavily skewed towards even middling gear being unattainable by anything less than hardcore farming. The economy needs to crash even more, for the game to actually be good.

Anyhow, I posted more overall thoughts a while back on the progression of D3 patching a while back. http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7200054434#8

It's actually not pessimistic at all. Just disappointed.
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Old 2013-01-21, 13:50   Link #3616
felix
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Quote:
I'm not opposed to the AH. The AH is the only thing that makes the game playable.
The AH and treasure goblin farming are stupid cheat mechanics in disguise that spoiled the game. The solution to trade spam is simple: get rid of trade altogether, every item is bound to only the players within the party when the item first dropped. Solved. Yeah it might make the game harder, but I don't think anyone minds when it's just as hard on everyone. And legitimate difficulty levels are better then difficulty sliders (increase HP/Atk by X).

I might be in the minority but I don't feel anything for items I bought in the AH. At most I feel for the gold value attached to it...
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Old 2013-01-21, 13:51   Link #3617
Archon_Wing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
The AH and treasure goblin farming are stupid cheat mechanics in disguise that spoiled the game. The solution to trade spam is simple: get rid of trade altogether, every item is bound to only the players within the party when the item first dropped. Solved. Yeah it might make the game harder, but I don't think anyone minds when it's just as hard on everyone. And legitimate difficulty levels are better then difficulty sliders (increase HP/Atk by X).

I might be in the minority but I don't feel anything for items I bought in the AH. At most I feel for the gold value attached to it...
They are not cheats. Just because they don't conform to your idea of gameplay doesn't make them cheating in any term of the definition. I wouldn't play a Diablo game without trade.

They may be cheesy. (And goblins are worthless these days anyways)
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Old 2013-01-21, 14:16   Link #3618
felix
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
They are not cheats. Just because they don't conform to your idea of gameplay doesn't make them cheating in any term of the definition. I wouldn't play a Diablo game without trade.
You press a button and buy power.
You skip content by performing a meaningless task over and over and over.
What more is there...

If we were talking currency like in Path of Exile where it has some value then yeah it's trade and it's fine. You are trading something hard to get for something equally hard to get; and all the items you are trading might have made you several good items if you used them and were lucky. But in Diablo it's just some stock exchange nonsense.

Say what you want but I don't like playing a game that makes you look stupid when everything on you is not something you just bouth with gold before it could even drop for you; and the way to get better is to spend hours on end repeating the same 10 meters killing a mob that can't even fight back. It might have done good to people who like buying and selling but it was awful for anyone who wanted a challenging and rewarding experience (not a duck shooting gallery).
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Old 2013-01-21, 14:34   Link #3619
Archon_Wing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
You press a button and buy power.
You skip content by performing a meaningless task over and over and over.
What more is there...
That's still not cheating. Cheating involves using outside methods to bypass the rules of gameplay or taking advantage of bugs that lead to the same effect.

My point is that I was saying that the AH works as a trading mechanism and you respond by saying we should remove trade. I can't connect with that at all. There are 5 classes in the game, and thus 80% of good items I find will be inevitably better for someone else.

The AH is a symptom of the problem. It reflects the nature of trade in the game, solely by being the main method.

Quote:
If we were talking currency like in Path of Exile where it has some value then yeah it's trade and it's fine. You are trading something hard to get for something equally hard to get; and all the items you are trading might have made you several good items if you used them and were lucky. But in Diablo it's just some stock exchange nonsense.
That's not how currency works. There's a reason why paper bills were invented alongside coins. Currency needs to be common and readily issued and easy to use, otherwise it's a barter system.

In D2, they used chipped gems as the very bottom building block of trading and anyone could get those.

This is why I brought up Gw2; the AH works fine there even though the primary currency is trivially easy to get.

The point of gold/currency is time. Sure it's easy to get, but not everyone wants to spend time picking up gold. Hell, I'm not even rich, but last I played D3, I was largely ignoring gold piles... so someone else can do it for me by buying my useless crap.

As for the stock exchange circus, that's just how all video game economies work. Some people don't know the true value of items so other people take advantage.

A huge obsession of what made Diablo multiplayer popular is the concept of in game wealth. The ability to quickly use this wealth to create whatever silly setup you desire on demand is a part of it. D3, for all its flaws, has gold to more accurately depict it.


Quote:
Say what you want but I don't like playing a game that makes you look stupid when everything on you is not something you just bouth with gold before it could even drop for you; and the way to get better is to spend hours on end repeating the same 10 meters killing a mob that can't even fight back. It might have done good to people who like buying and selling but it was awful for anyone who wanted a challenging and rewarding experience (not a duck shooting gallery).
That is a fundamental flaw of rewards vs challenge with the game. Though arguably games like Diablo always have efficient farming in less challenging content. There's a reason why D2 players used Pindleskin and Meph as pinatas. But D3 does have it skewed the wrong way. Challenging content isn't rewarding enough and they are trying to fix it by buffing MP rewards. But it isn't enough.

Why do people use the AH to get ahead? Because the game doesn't let them otherwise. Compare D2 where you could get fucking Tal Runes from Act 1 Countess in normal. 2 of them in your act 2 merc and he melts everything in normal and put a Stealth runeword on yourself. It was ridiculous on how you could utterly break the progression curve in D2 if you knew what you were doing. You can't in D3. Lame. :/

In a sense, I don't think people would have complained about Inferno if Hell was actually a decent place to farm. By D2 analogy, end of nightmare had some really good drops, including elite unique items that weren't the best items in the game, but if you were playing single player, they might as well be because they were that good.

Rigid and defined a Diablo game does not make.
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2013-01-21 at 14:46.
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Old 2013-01-21, 18:52   Link #3620
felix
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
That's still not cheating. Cheating involves using outside methods to bypass the rules of gameplay or taking advantage of bugs that lead to the same effect.
Depends then if you see AH as "an outside power." Same for seeing it as a bug; it's only a feature because you brought the game to play the whole trading market. It's a bug it screws with progression, drops, etc.

Quote:
My point is that I was saying that the AH works as a trading mechanism and you respond by saying we should remove trade. I can't connect with that at all. There are 5 classes in the game, and thus 80% of good items I find will be inevitably better for someone else.
You said: "I'm not opposed to the AH. The AH is the only thing that makes the game playable. People need to trade in a secure environment without scamming." Essentially this is not a issue if there is no trading at all outside of party loot.

Quote:
My point is that I was saying that the AH works as a trading mechanism and you respond by saying we should remove trade. I can't connect with that at all. There are 5 classes in the game, and thus 80% of good items I find will be inevitably better for someone else.
Just have mostly current class loots drop, with a sprinkle of off-class loots. It's not like your character would look at an axe on the wall and think how they can shoot it in their little xbow. Your problem is another symptom of the problem known as the AH. Since you can trade they have reason to have everything under the sun drop, forcing you to trade for 90% of your stuff. It's surprising they don't have some renting system too.

Quote:
The point of gold/currency is time. Sure it's easy to get, but not everyone wants to spend time picking up gold. Hell, I'm not even rich, but last I played D3, I was largely ignoring gold piles... so someone else can do it for me by buying my useless crap.
To hell with time as a currency. It's a 60$/euro game; if I want to pay with (wasting) time I'll play one of the million free to play games out there. (At least I'm killing things in those!)

And you miss my point. Because of the whole AH or rather "trade until you own" system, you are shoehorned into paying more and more time for less and less everything else. By the time you stop "paying time" you breeze though the so called "fun parts" so you achieve nothing. It forces in the mentality that "it's too hard, pay with more time" and drops the difficulty bar to "are you nolifer who likes to do the same 10s piece of content over and over for 60 hours?"

Quote:
That's not how currency works. There's a reason why paper bills were invented alongside coins. Currency needs to be common and readily issued and easy to use, otherwise it's a barter system.
It's a game; you can make game paper money spawn dragons if you wanted. PoE already showed a non-gold system can work just fine and is way more stable.

Quote:
That is a fundamental flaw of rewards vs challenge with the game. Though arguably games like Diablo always have efficient farming in less challenging content. There's a reason why D2 players used Pindleskin and Meph as pinatas. But D3 does have it skewed the wrong way. Challenging content isn't rewarding enough and they are trying to fix it by buffing MP rewards. But it isn't enough.

Why do people use the AH to get ahead? Because the game doesn't let them otherwise. Compare D2 where you could get fucking Tal Runes from Act 1 Countess in normal. 2 of them in your act 2 merc and he melts everything in normal and put a Stealth runeword on yourself. It was ridiculous on how you could utterly break the progression curve in D2 if you knew what you were doing. You can't in D3. Lame. :/

In a sense, I don't think people would have complained about Inferno if Hell was actually a decent place to farm. By D2 analogy, end of nightmare had some really good drops, including elite unique items that weren't the best items in the game, but if you were playing single player, they might as well be because they were that good.

Rigid and defined a Diablo game does not make.
Am I the only person on the face of this planet that doesn't look at this game as a farming simulator?

(and to think people judge why games like Framing Whatnot 2012 exist)
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