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Old 2013-02-02, 03:14   Link #121
HasuMasu
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Itachi killed Shisui, and a body was found. True there are ways to fake a body (Zetsu has one sure fire way), but is there really any reason why a body needed to be fake or for Shisui to still be alive?
I thought Shisui's death was staged?

What, so he's really dead? Didn't Itachi say he 'disappeared'?
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Old 2013-02-02, 09:52   Link #122
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Itachi killed Shisui, and a body was found. True there are ways to fake a body (Zetsu has one sure fire way), but is there really any reason why a body needed to be fake or for Shisui to still be alive?
i'm not so sure of that. in the latest episode it was made quite clear that shisui's death was staged and that itachi took on the suspicion himself to help the cause. after that, danzo took an eye and then he gave the other eye to itachi and vanished. he was meant to be another possibility for tobi's identity i think. the third and only other reasonable theory imo after obito and izuna. he still may show up in the story possibly. probably with no eyes still

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Originally Posted by unameit View Post
If it's all about chakra then nagato could simply wait till he's recovered to revive everyone... that's common sense..
perhaps, but it was also the heat of the moment. he made a sacrifice and passed on his will to naruto. these are ninja after all. self sacrifice is an important part of their ideology. it was also an atonement for his sins

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It's gonna be a bit baffling, for those edo hogake to speak, they have to act on their own and if that's not the best window for them to break free from edo tensei then i don't know what is..
I take it those edo hogakes have to act free in order to be able to fully use their brain and ability so if they're still restricted by oro then they wouldn't be that badass as it's proven between the fight of the 1st 3 hokages some time ago...
orochi saw how kabuto controlled the ET army. he could mimic that variation and have them under control while still able to be 'free' with their words and techniques

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I wonder why would a break-free-edo-zombie-madara wants to be revived by rinne tensei now? i mean, he's immortal now, having unbreakable body and power up chakra.. He died around 100 years of age so being revive in that state hardly positive for him..
i dont think he does want to get revived by it anymore, but keep in mind that rinnegan has a youth technique which edo-nagato used to return to his old self. i assume madara could have done the same and returned to his prime if he was revived by rinne tensei
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Old 2013-02-02, 10:07   Link #123
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did you really just bring up kagami? i was hoping to be done hearing about him after that silly theory of him being tobi... kagami was a throwaway character that was included for the sole reason of enforcing the concept that the uchiha weren't always segregated and were normal members of konoha teams like other clans. there is no need or purpose to see that character again. might as well ask to see the akamichi team member
If it's an Uchiha then there are not many to choose from. Two who should know a lot about the relation between the village and the clan were Kagami and Sasuke's fahter (of course i consider only already named characters). Sasuke's fahter should know everything about the Uchiha's plan, but if Itachi told the whole plan to Sarutobi then it's really not needed to resurrect him (except the emotional impact of Sasuke meeting his father again, and that alone gives it a chance of happening). Kagami would be interesting because he lived while Sarutobi was leading the village and when Danzou began his own anbu army and his secret operations against almost everyone in the plot.

Could also be Shisui, that would be quite interesting, however i think it's unlikely because his genjutsu is too strong. But it would be quite fun to see Shisui being ordered by Orochimaru to implant into Naruto the order of fighting against the alliance and Konoha A fight where Sasuke defends Konoha and Naruto attacks it would be quite a big plot twist Lately the manga has become a too predictable, so that would be a quite interesting turn of events.

So there are the 3 named Uchiha that witnessed the relation between the village and the clan, or can you think of someone else? (i left Izuna out because he was already dead by the time the village was formed) If Sasuke wants to know what are these organizations and how they related then he should ask an Uchiha leader too, not only kages. And he has one spare Zetsu body for that.
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Old 2013-02-02, 10:18   Link #124
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Originally Posted by Hasumi View Post
I thought Shisui's death was staged?

What, so he's really dead? Didn't Itachi say he 'disappeared'?
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
i'm not so sure of that. in the latest episode it was made quite clear that shisui's death was staged and that itachi took on the suspicion himself to help the cause. after that, danzo took an eye and then he gave the other eye to itachi and vanished. he was meant to be another possibility for tobi's identity i think. the third and only other reasonable theory imo after obito and izuna. he still may show up in the story possibly. probably with no eyes still
It says quite clearly in 550 that Shisui is dead. In fact he died "suddenly" after taking out his own MS (Itachi gained his MS by assisting Shisui in his suicide). The whole disappearance thing is just what Shisui and Itachi did to ensure that Shisui's body was never closely examined.

Additionally, Danzou took Shisui's eye before he killed himself. Shisui attempted to use his eye to change Danzou (and presumably others) responses to the potential coup, but he failed and Danzou stole one of his eyes. His suicide (and giving his other eye to Itachi) was the result of this conflict with Danzou: he did not want Danzou to take both eyes nor gain his body after death.
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Old 2013-02-02, 13:22   Link #125
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
If Sasuke wants to know what are these organizations and how they related then he should ask an Uchiha leader too, not only kages. And he has one spare Zetsu body for that.
Where? if we are talking about the one jugo is holding (and i think a previous poster brought this up), jugo appeared to have drained that one in order to regain his normal appearance after shrinking? or whatever when he used his power to release the zetsus from sasuke...i could be wrong tho
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Old 2013-02-02, 16:02   Link #126
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Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime View Post
Where? if we are talking about the one jugo is holding (and i think a previous poster brought this up), jugo appeared to have drained that one in order to regain his normal appearance after shrinking? or whatever when he used his power to release the zetsus from sasuke...i could be wrong tho
I missed that, looking at the bottom of page 15 it appears to be the case, although it's not clear if that Zetsu disappeared. Apart from that it's also probable that Sasuke doesn't want to disgrace his ancestors by using Edo Tensei on them.

Unfortunately it's difficult to take Sasuke's revenge seriously since he didn't touch the village or killed anyone and i bet Kishimoto won't write what should be written for the next chapter: Sasuke forces the 4 hokages to attack and destroy konoha. If he hates Konoha so much then the hokages should be in the focus of his hatred and Sasuke should make them suffer by having them destroy what was most precious for them.

Last edited by Ero-Senn1n; 2013-02-02 at 16:28.
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Old 2013-02-02, 23:09   Link #127
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Could also be Shisui, that would be quite interesting, however i think it's unlikely because his genjutsu is too strong. But it would be quite fun to see Shisui being ordered by Orochimaru to implant into Naruto the order of fighting against the alliance and Konoha A fight where Sasuke defends Konoha and Naruto attacks it would be quite a big plot twist Lately the manga has become a too predictable, so that would be a quite interesting turn of events.
haha that would be pretty funny actually

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If Sasuke wants to know what are these organizations and how they related then he should ask an Uchiha leader too, not only kages.
i think his father would make much more sense than a character who had literally one line in the manga and sasuke would probably never have heard of

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
It says quite clearly in 550 that Shisui is dead. In fact he died "suddenly" after taking out his own MS (Itachi gained his MS by assisting Shisui in his suicide). The whole disappearance thing is just what Shisui and Itachi did to ensure that Shisui's body was never closely examined.
after reading that chapter again, i have to say that none of it is clear to me now. i think it's possible that shisui is still alive. the biggest evidence of that is that kabuto wasnt able to find his dna. sure it would be tough to find, but so should have a lot of the other ninja he resurrected. second bit of evidence is shisui's ridiculously ambiguous death story. basically just itachi's word or perhaps itachi was under a genjutsu to believe that shusui is dead. third bit would be that we still need an explanation as to how shisui gained MS in the first place which grants him story relevance

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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
If he hates Konoha so much then the hokages should be in the focus of his hatred and Sasuke should make them suffer by having them destroy what was most precious for them.
i would agree except for the fact that konoha was still pretty recently obliterated. doing it again would be hackneyed from a writing perspective. i think sasuke using them to take out all the major players in the war would be effective enough. hashirama and tobirama vs madara and obito, hiruzen vs orochimaru and minato vs naruto... just speculating
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Old 2013-02-03, 02:02   Link #128
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
second bit of evidence is shisui's ridiculously ambiguous death story. basically just itachi's word or perhaps itachi was under a genjutsu to believe that shusui is dead.
What's ambiguous about it? He had Itachi help to kill him after Danzou stole one of his eyes and then attempted to steal the other (and presumably use his body for various purposes). He, quite literally, died to protect his and Itachi's secrets, and his body was utterly destroyed to make sure those secrets stayed well hidden.

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third bit would be that we still need an explanation as to how shisui gained MS in the first place which grants him story relevance
Why? He isn't really relevant to the story at all. His eyes had minimal importance, but that was just to help Sasuke (in the Danzou fight, and then later with Itachi). Making him into some mythical figure just because his name was mentioned isn't that far removed from people trying to make Izuna or Kagami seem relevant, when in fact they are clearly not (and both would have just as much relevant info as Shisui).

Honestly, I don't really care one way or another, but for Kishimoto to be jerking us around on such a trivial non-mystery so close to the end seems to be the height of pandering (for Itachi especially (since it boosts Itachi's street cred even further)) and outright silliness. We do not need for Shisui to be alive. He has no real bearing on anything of importance. His eyes served a specific plot contrivance, but beyond that he is not needed for any of the current mysteries and his being alive won't magically add some much needed depth to some current aspect of the story.
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Old 2013-02-03, 03:27   Link #129
itachi-san314
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What's ambiguous about it?
the fact that there was no evidence of him dying aside from itachi's word. in anime's like this if a character wasn't shown to us literally dying, then kishi can concoct any excuse he wants if his intention is to have them still be alive, much like obito.

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Why? He isn't really relevant to the story at all.
i partly agree but that doesn't mean he couldnt be. kishi could devise a new subplot involving him. his relevance at least lies in how to obtain MS and how he got his

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Making him into some mythical figure just because his name was mentioned isn't that far removed from people trying to make Izuna or Kagami seem relevant, when in fact they are clearly not (and both would have just as much relevant info as Shisui).
nearly everyone is mythical in this story, I don't see your point. and it's actually very different than kagami who had 1 line and no story, but that should be obvious i would think. just shisui's close connection to itachi and izuna's close connection to madara make them more important players than kagami

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We do not need for Shisui to be alive. He has no real bearing on anything of importance. His eyes served a specific plot contrivance, but beyond that he is not needed for any of the current mysteries and his being alive won't magically add some much needed depth to some current aspect of the story.
i agree we dont need him. i even think it's unlikely he will reappear in the story. i'm just saying it's possible and that we almost certainly will find out how he got MS one way or another. at that time would be the optimal point for him to return if he ever is going to do so
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Old 2013-02-03, 08:43   Link #130
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Now that 4 Hokages are here, will we have the longest flashback in Naruto so far?
The life of the 4 Hokages could be a spin-off easily

I must say that the overuse of dialectic in the story, the way arguments for or against are systematically exposed for any person, who wants to make a choice make the reading of Naruto less fun.
It is done in a complex manner and now we have new things about Shinigami jutsu only added to bring back the Hokages for the sake of exposing new perspectives to Sasuke.

Saying that I wonder if the Hokages will bring new unexpected elements, maybe telling the way they treated Uchihas was for a greater cause. I am always surprised S06P left somethings for Uchihas, but nothing has been heard about a message for Senju.
And it seems Sasuke lacks a purpose in the story. If that only confirms Sasuke's beliefs, he should side with Tobi and Madara to defeat Konoha's army and not waiting the remaining Uchihas are on the verge of losing.
Except for Rin's death I don't have any specific I want to that was hinted, but not really explained. Except if something we currently know turns out to be false (like Shisui's death for example).
The death of the first Hokage and his fight with Madara interest me though.
If the second Hokage was the creator of Edo Tensei, on who did he use before forbidding the technique

Shinigami technique seems a Uzumaki technique. I am not familiar enough with Japanese folklore to know where the story of the mask comes from.

If Madara can break from Edo Tensei, can one of the Hokages do the same? If they go to the battle, it will be strange that Tobi meets the 4th.
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Old 2013-02-03, 09:14   Link #131
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post

i agree we dont need him. i even think it's unlikely he will reappear in the story. i'm just saying it's possible and that we almost certainly will find out how he got MS one way or another. at that time would be the optimal point for him to return if he ever is going to do so
That's what the data books are for. Miscellaneous information that doesn't really matter to the story or the characters.
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Old 2013-02-03, 10:38   Link #132
Artimus_Prime
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
the fact that there was no evidence of him dying aside from itachi's word. in anime's like this if a character wasn't shown to us literally dying, then kishi can concoct any excuse he wants if his intention is to have them still be alive, much like obito.
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
i agree we dont need him. i even think it's unlikely he will reappear in the story. i'm just saying it's possible and that we almost certainly will find out how he got MS one way or another. at that time would be the optimal point for him to return if he ever is going to do so
i would like to know as well. and i agree he COULD potentially return to the story. i currently speculate that since he was in root and given the training they undergo, perhaps he gained it by killing/witnessing the death of his sai brother equivalent. (but for fun tho i want him to be related to obito )

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Originally Posted by MeroBAKA View Post
It is done in a complex manner and now we have new things about Shinigami jutsu only added to bring back the Hokages for the sake of exposing new perspectives to Sasuke.
shinigami jutsu and subsequently the uzumaki clan will/should have a much larger role in the story…at least i hope

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Originally Posted by MeroBAKA View Post
Saying that I wonder if the Hokages will bring new unexpected elements, maybe telling the way they treated Uchihas was for a greater cause. I am always surprised S06P left somethings for Uchihas, but nothing has been heard about a message for Senju.
as i understand it, there was a senju-uchiha truce. madaras actions eventually made the village suspicious which is why the second hokage did what he did with them. as for the tablet, perhaps it was left by the original sage, but it could have very well been left by the sage's eldest son...

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Originally Posted by MeroBAKA View Post
The death of the first Hokage and his fight with Madara interest me though.
If the second Hokage was the creator of Edo Tensei, on who did he use before forbidding the technique.
Good question…
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Old 2013-02-03, 12:04   Link #133
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I gotta say, I'm glad to see the hokages brought back simply for the fact that I know when all this is over, their souls will be freed. Frankly, it's always kinda bothered me that using the jutsu meant spending eternity being tormented in the death god's stomach. I always thought it was a great way to show the self-sacrifice they were willing to perform for Konoha, but it just seemed very...unfair.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
the fact that there was no evidence of him dying aside from itachi's word. in anime's like this if a character wasn't shown to us literally dying, then kishi can concoct any excuse he wants if his intention is to have them still be alive, much like obito.
I have to agree... it seems like any shinobi with any kind of prominence, no matter how little role they've actually played in the story thus far, are being brought back. I definitely wouldn't count Shisui showing up somehow.
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Old 2013-02-03, 12:51   Link #134
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That's what the data books are for. Miscellaneous information that doesn't really matter to the story or the characters.
I disagree. the MS is in the top 3 abilities in the entire story and it's rare. i think an explanation of everyone with MS is in order. we still dont even know exactly how it is triggered although it seems to me that experiencing extreme suffering is the cause. in a story where characters like shin and hanzo are resurrected and given closure, having closure of shisui's character and mysteries should be inevitable. genjutsu is an entire subset of techniques and shisui had the most powerful one ever. i think it's much more important than a mere databook entry

shisui's character comes across as a mentor type based on what itachi has revealed of him. that said, if he is alive and blind, he could serve as an adviser of sorts to sasuke. he's also someone sasuke would listen to and take advise from given his close connection to itachi. the only way for sasuke to redeem himself, which he will do eventually, is by sacrifice which is what shisui taught itachi and may need to teach sasuke as well

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i would like to know as well. and i agree he COULD potentially return to the story. i currently speculate that since he was in root and given the training they undergo, perhaps he gained it by killing/witnessing the death of his sai brother equivalent.
that's a pretty good call. it was probably something like that. kishi likes inserting danzo into flashbacks and a shisui closure subplot would call for another danzo appearance

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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
I gotta say, I'm glad to see the hokages brought back simply for the fact that I know when all this is over, their souls will be freed. Frankly, it's always kinda bothered me that using the jutsu meant spending eternity being tormented in the death god's stomach. I always thought it was a great way to show the self-sacrifice they were willing to perform for Konoha, but it just seemed very...unfair.
I totally agree. that was my number one reason for thinking this would happen. there's just no way such good characters could be left suffering eternally. if the story ended with them stuck in such a situation it just wouldn't have been right
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Old 2013-02-03, 14:59   Link #135
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i would agree except for the fact that konoha was still pretty recently obliterated. doing it again would be hackneyed from a writing perspective. i think sasuke using them to take out all the major players in the war would be effective enough. hashirama and tobirama vs madara and obito, hiruzen vs orochimaru and minato vs naruto... just speculating
It was stated that those were just the buildings, most of the people were at the shelters while those who were killed were resurrected anyway. Now only the civilans and children (the "king" as they say) are in konoha, it would be the perfect time to do it. Of course it would be somewhat repetitive since Nagato had the same goal. Right now Sasuke's alibi for not doing so is that he is confused and searches for definitive answers.

What i don't get is why would Sasuke help the alliance against 2 Uchiha? It doesn't make sense in case of Madara, in case of Tobito it would make sense to get his revenge on him for killing the clan, but not when he fights the alliance.
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Old 2013-02-03, 15:20   Link #136
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What i don't get is why would Sasuke help the alliance against 2 Uchiha? It doesn't make sense in case of Madara, in case of Tobito it would make sense to get his revenge on him for killing the clan, but not when he fights the alliance.
Obito is Sasuke's target from the start and Madara is the guy behind it all. Worse than that his dead brother fought to take Edo-Madara down and failed. Such an insult on the name of his beautiful oniiiii-chan cannot stand.
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Old 2013-02-03, 15:26   Link #137
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What i don't get is why would Sasuke help the alliance against 2 Uchiha? It doesn't make sense in case of Madara, in case of Tobito it would make sense to get his revenge on him for killing the clan, but not when he fights the alliance.
they are uchiha but they are clearly not only villains, they are both huge enemies of the uchiha clan. obito framed and murdered them with itachi and madara continually defied them to the point of them ostracizing him. sasuke and itachi loved their clan and wanted to preserve their reputation and respect. madara and obito have done nothing but kill, betray and slander the uchiha
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Old 2013-02-03, 17:27   Link #138
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I disagree. the MS is in the top 3 abilities in the entire story and it's rare. i think an explanation of everyone with MS is in order.
I agree, an explanation is in order...we just don't need it during the course of current events. Honestly, based on what we currently know, it really doesn't matter to anything going on currently.

(Again, this is not to say that Shisui won't be coming back. It just seems really unnecessary...then again, when has that ever stopped Kishimoto?)

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
in a story where characters like shin and hanzo are resurrected and given closure, having closure of shisui's character and mysteries should be inevitable.
What closure? He is said to have died as he lived, protecting Konoha and attempting to save the Uchiha Clan. And truthfully nothing he says can't be said by others (Sarutobi is right before Sasuke's eyes currently, and Itachi already explained himself). As it is, I'm still confused as to what mysteries you are referring to. The only thing that even comes close is how he (or Itachi) so thoroughly destroyed all the genetic evidence of Shisui's existence, but the "why" has somewhat been explained (keeping his secrets from Danzou and the Uchiha Clan). (If you want further rampant speculation...Shisui was Obito's brother, and that is why Obito was so interested in the eyes. But, Shisui completely destroyed himself so as to keep the power of EMS out of Obito's hands.)

Honestly, if you want a real mystery: Who the hell is Itachi's girlfriend?

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genjutsu is an entire subset of techniques and shisui had the most powerful one ever. i think it's much more important than a mere databook entry
What more can be said about his techniques that hasn't already been said in the manga?

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shisui's character comes across as a mentor type based on what itachi has revealed of him. that said, if he is alive and blind, he could serve as an adviser of sorts to sasuke.
Sasuke doesn't need an adviser (especially one he would literally have just met). Sasuke needs information and then to sit down, sort his shit out, and finally make some life decisions. Yet another adviser would do nothing for him now except add to the confusion in his poor messed up brain.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
he's also someone sasuke would listen to and take advise from given his close connection to itachi. the only way for sasuke to redeem himself, which he will do eventually, is by sacrifice which is what shisui taught itachi and may need to teach sasuke as well
That lesson was left up to Naruto to teach (Itachi both literally and figuratively gave Naruto Shisui's legacy).
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Old 2013-02-03, 20:03   Link #139
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I agree, an explanation is in order...we just don't need it during the course of current events. Honestly, based on what we currently know, it really doesn't matter to anything going on currently.
we still dont know the full extent of the knowledge sasuke needs to make his decision. shisui would be able to give him info from the uchiha's perspective. so could others too like his father of course

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What closure? He is said to have died as he lived, protecting Konoha and attempting to save the Uchiha Clan.
same could have been said for obito. he 'died' under the boulder in a fitting way that provided closure to his character and he came back as another character basically. asuma had closure and came back. so did itachi as far as he could see at the time he died, everything went smoothly. with shisui we've heard him mentioned a lot, but never really saw any of it. his supposed death isn't concrete at all. and we don't know how he advanced his eyes to become one of the most elite uchiha in history. how is that closure? and even if you think it's closure, he can still obviously come back just like those other characters

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And truthfully nothing he says can't be said by others
thats simply not true based on the fact that kishi can write whatever he wants if this turn of events came into play. it could be particulars from the uchiha perspective about the coup or some secrets about danzo or root or the sharingan, etc...

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As it is, I'm still confused as to what mysteries you are referring to.
death isn't confirmed. MS reason isn't explained yet. i can't make it much clearer

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(If you want further rampant speculation...Shisui was Obito's brother, and that is why Obito was so interested in the eyes. But, Shisui completely destroyed himself so as to keep the power of EMS out of Obito's hands.)
i dont see the harm in speculation. it beats having no discussion. like i've said, i think its improbable, but possible for shisui to return. and i dont see any reason to say its impossible. as for your speculation, it actually could happen that way

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Honestly, if you want a real mystery: Who the hell is Itachi's girlfriend?
i've always kind of wanted to know, but in naruto female characters are so useless, that i also kind of didn't

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What more can be said about his techniques that hasn't already been said in the manga?
possibly nothing, possibly something. him returning doesnt require him to unveil any new techniques. if anything, i would assume he would be blind with a head wrap on or something
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Old 2013-02-03, 20:58   Link #140
Ero-Senn1n
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hidden Village of Sake
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Obito is Sasuke's target from the start and Madara is the guy behind it all. Worse than that his dead brother fought to take Edo-Madara down and failed. Such an insult on the name of his beautiful oniiiii-chan cannot stand.
Well all this is logical, but Sasuke acted irrationally from the moment Tobi told him the story if Itachi's death. Why would a guy who wants to kill Tobito make the whole ninja world his enemy by attacking KillerBee wearing an akatsuki robe while he doesn't even want to join them. One could assume that Sasuke did make the world his enemy to gain Tobi's trust but he doesn't act like that at all. The only thing that seems to be true is that both Sasuke and Tobi want to use each other. But if Sasuke wants to use Tobi then he should just summon his bird and watch how Tobi and the alliance annihilate each other while eating popcorn. Anyway, it would really be lame if an Uchiha attacked other two Uchihas while the ninja alliance wants all 3 of them dead. Sasuke attacking these two Uchiha means he is helping Naruto and Konoha, so even if he wants to kill those 2 guys for causing the death of his clan he should first let them destroy the alliance before he turns against them. I can see only one reason for which he would attack them: to prevent the Moon's eye plan. But Sasuke saving the alliance and Naruto would make them look like complete losers. Of course if Sasuke acts completely irrationally he will save Naruto shouting to Tobi that "Naruto is mine! Don't you dare touch him, i want to kill him! blah blah..."
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