2013-01-30, 19:28 | Link #31821 | |||||||
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Of course an huge problem with the forgeries then would be: if the forgeries are made to look like Maria's retelling of those two days... how could Maria know about what George and Shannon talked? Or what was said after she was pushed out of Kinzo's study? Quote:
And I say this with regret as I've toyed with the idea Kyrie could be a culprit in EP 3... but the best she might have done is to kill Hideyoshi. The one about Maria's voice? It's not placed in Jessica's room though. In Ep 7 when she secretly went in the VIP room to prove Beato didn't exist she received a phone call in the middle of the night during which she heard Maria singing. Maria didn't answer her when she called her and later denied making the call. The most likely explanation is that Maria's voice had been recordered. As in EP 1 we get another phonecall with Maria singing I wonder if that time too the same trick was used to give Yasu more time to act. Quote:
So maybe there was a little magic in the tales... though maybe the giant amount of it in the following episodes was due to the forgerers' interpretation of what Maria wrote. After all EP 1 presents only the implication it could be magic due to a child insisting it's so and stuffs that can't be explained, it doesn't have the huge magic scenes the other episodes have. However a forgerer, reading it, might feel allowed to add as much magic as he likes. Quote:
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It's likely coincidental though, as it is the fact that Will defended a maid at the beginning of Ep 7... Quote:
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2013-01-30, 20:08 | Link #31822 | |
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2013-01-30, 20:23 | Link #31823 |
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Being shot in the stomach and then moving around would most certainly leave a lot of blood everywhere. It would be pretty dishonest of RK07 to have something like this end up being the solution when no clues were really offered in the VN and the only "evidence" of it is in the anime and can be attributed to bad animators.
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2013-01-30, 20:54 | Link #31824 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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But let's assume Kyrie was still alive with a stake in her stomach which in the long run will kill her. She would remain there faking to be death while slowly bleeding to death while people cries over her, Rudolf and Nanjo, without no one realizing she's alive and her making no attempt to ask for help just so that later she can get up despite the blood loss, walk till Nanjo without leaving traces of the blood that's seeping out of her and kill him? I find this rather unlikely. And in the manga she 'moved' before we see Battler witnessing the scene. in chap 18 she's in the same position as Battler left her in chap 14, her eyes still open, blood still on her and around her and around her mouth and face turned toward the direction from which Battler came. All this can tell us is that the magic scene and the 'real' scene doesn't match perfectly... though this can be explained with the stake having to move the bodies to stake them comfortably and Ronove cleaning up as Eva ordered him to do so that the scene would match with the epitaph. |
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2013-01-30, 21:44 | Link #31825 |
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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Actually now I consider it, Nanjo dies much later than that scene as well. Still, it is unusual that this one and only time Yasu was walking around without a personality...
Though whether the stake was put in later or not, it still wasn't that fatal of a wound. This is either a hint to her shooting Hideyoshi, or some major trolling for meanness sake (e.g. hahaha she died slowly and painfully) |
2013-01-31, 01:26 | Link #31826 | |||
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Scenarios like these are possible:
Also, the manga for EP8 implied heavily that Yasu was very much torn about her emotions towards people like Natsuhi. On the one hand she wants her to be the mother she never had, but on the other hand hates her for all that she caused (the raging culprit-shadow in one panel was pretty clear on that). Spoiler for EP8 Manga Panel:
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It was said in the Endroll part of EP1 that a message bottle was found several years (not 5 years, don't know where you got the number from) after the incident by a fisherman on a nearby island adrift in the sea. This message bottle was released to the public, by that fisherman, after Eva sold Kinzo's library from Kuwadorian via auction and the interest in strange and occult items from the Ushiromiya household rose. The fisherman probably saw a good way to make money and went public. This could likely have been the bottle that contained EP1. As a reaction towards this the police also released the bottle they found, which they had probably filed after they had somehow ruled out the likelihood of what they found in their message bottle. Or maybe there was information back then, but nobody actually cared, as Ootsuki said that up until Kinzo's library was released only very few people held interest in the case. This bottle could have been EP2. So where does it make no sense? Quote:
There is also the short exchange between BlackBattler and Ronove in the TIP Forgery No.xxx where upon the question when they had last met Ronove gives a cryptic answer that it should have been Trinity of the Golden Witch but considering that "Lady Bernkastel's gameboard is considered to be the last" (EP7?) they would have to say that this one was the last. Yet on the other hand they remark, no matter when they last met, they still have just met a moment ago. This also shows that the metaworld may not work under the same logic of time and space as the world of 1998 does. It is merely given "an order" by the way it is regarded by those who give order to that world, which would be the Spectating Witches. This is impossible if the meta was actually part of the actual narrative, because then it would be bound to the respective order it was written in. Last edited by haguruma; 2013-01-31 at 07:31. |
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2013-01-31, 09:41 | Link #31827 |
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I think the meta-level narrative by necessity has to be independent, otherwise the entire concept of the Sea of Fragments and Forgeries and Theatergoing and whatnot don't make a lot of sense. If it's one linear narrative carried through certain Fragments/Forgeries/Stories and going beginning-to-end, then there's no room for those things. Bern implies tons and tons of iterations of the various stories exist, but obviously we don't watch those things. Ronove in the aforementioned Forgery No. XXX mentions Trinity, a story that doesn't exist (at least to us). The notion of "different meta-worlds" makes sense though if you assume it's the swirling chaos of different Readers and different interpretations, and that the existing meta-narrative belongs to some character we're aware of (such as Tohya or Ange).
EDIT: And naturally, that means something like ep7 could quite literally be some other person's meta-world, with Will as their avatar. Bern can be there because Bern can be wherever she wants to be, so that's not an issue. For them to later appear in the ep8 meta-world could mean all sorts of things, but looking strictly at ep7 you could say that information and/or speculation belongs to The Person Behind Will, whoever that is.
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2013-01-31, 10:44 | Link #31828 | ||
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1) The only evidence that the letter ever existed was that Maria said so. Maria certainly made some false statements about how Beatrice entered the room; she'd probably make other false statements if Beatrice specifically asked her to. (There are also so some golden butterfly scenes, which are unreliable.) 2) Maria was in a particularly bad position to see Natsuhi take the letter. (Battler would have blocked a good deal of her field of vision, and she would have reflexively focused on Battler (two feet away) instead of Natsuhi (at the back of the room). 3) There's no reason for Beatrice to think that Natsuhi will read the letter herself, and good reason for Beatrice to think that Natsuhi won't; reading the letter requires Natsuhi to temporarily set aside her gun, and Natsuhi's had Battler open and read the previous letters. 4) The letter disappears. Quote:
What about the scene when Krauss shows Natsuhi the gold bar? Is that supposed to be real? (I think it's fake, for various reasons.)
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2013-01-31, 11:16 | Link #31829 | |
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It's actually vaguely interesting to wonder what room the killer is in at any given time when not actually visible as a survivor.
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2013-01-31, 14:38 | Link #31831 |
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I'd think being in any room that's not easy to exit is a bad idea in general. Also, some things presumably would only be available in some rooms. My guess would be that the stuff to write the letters and whatnot are probably stored in the VIP room, for example. Fortunately, nobody has the numbers or organizational skills to cut off large areas through posting sentries, so it doesn't seem like the killer has to improvise all that often due to lack of access to some valuable tool or other.
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2013-01-31, 15:28 | Link #31832 | |||
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Basically if Maria saw Genji closing the door and then she was tricked into closing her eyes or something Yasu can enter thanks to her keys and explain to Maria she entered thanks to magic and Maria would swallow it. And if you don't ask Maria 'did you see her do so?' you'll never know the truth. Basically, you can get the TRUTH from maria only if you make her reconstruct the scene otherwise you'll get what SHE THINKS is the truth. I think that's not even needed. There would likely be no way to check if the phone next to Maria was the one who did the call... unless only a group was going to check things while the other would stay behind. |
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2013-02-02, 04:37 | Link #31833 | |||||
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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It's also interesting, actually, since Beatrice implies here that she's human. Her explanation for why the charm doesn't necessarily work on her is "because I'm the grandchild of the Golden Witch" (the emphasis on "grandchild" is from the manga, not me). Quote:
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The same kanji was also used in Itouikukuro Reigonamu (伊藤幾九郎〇五七六, 11019960576). Also, I found the Asumu pun you referred to. Quote:
-------------------------- Finished chapters 7 and 8. Kinzo talked about how, using some kind of special scattering round and enough gunpowder, a sawed-off shotgun to shoot someone point-blank in the face would blow someone's head off such that it would look like "a witch or demon devoured it". Then he said that so much gunpowder would cause too much recoil, but that even with less gunpowder you could still blow off about half of a face. So, I guess that's the weapon used to kill most people in EP4. Also, some background about Genji. He and Kinzo grew up together in Taiwan, kinda as friends/rivals. Kinzo left after the Kantou Quake, and after the war, Genji seemed to fall on some rough times in the post-war chaos and had no place to go. And so Kinzo offered him a place, and Genji is all super grateful. Also, apparently when the two are alone, sometimes the formalities drop and they go back to old times. And, wow, Genji is the same age as Kinzo? I always thought Genji was younger. But, in those flashback images that pre-date the 1923 earthquake, they look like they're in their late teens, so Genji and Kinzo are both probably about 80-ish in 1986. |
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2013-02-02, 09:19 | Link #31834 | ||
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Let's pick Ep 1. We don't see the scene in which Beato turned into butterflies and entered in the room but Maria said that's what she did. In short the magical scenes would be merely a visual expansion on how the reader pictures a scene described in the tale through Maria's eyes. So she can say that the stake appeared in Jessica's room because ordered by Beatrice. Kanon, that was with her, tried to protect her but Beatrice's magic is too strong so the two of them had no hope to win. After all Maria is consistently declaring stuffs to be done by Beatrice's magic... and it's possible that if a reader read the first message/Ep1 he was at first left in disbelief but then, when reading Ep 2 he might start wondering if Maria's explanation is the one possible and ending up developing her suggestions in a full fantasy scene. Interesting enough if I'm not wrong we don't see the fantasy for the first twilight but we see the one for the second... for which PieceBattler will try his best to refuse the most obvious solution (Kanon killed Jessica and left). [though there's to say PieceBattler might have been influenced by the Meta in which Kanon was declared dead... as in Ep 2 the two seem to be thightly connected... funny enough in Ep 4 they're not as Beato says PieceBattler couldn't hear her but MetaBattler could] Thank you so much for the extra info! If I can ask any other info about how Beato knew the truth about Battler's birth? Or how Ange seemed to know it (at least to me) in Ep 4? Oh and I also have something to say about Ep 7 manga version though maybe people here know this already... Have you ever wonder if there was a reason for the manga to cut the scene in which Battler places his tale with Beato in the grave? Well, there's one. The scene isn't in the magazine version of the manga... but was later added at the beginning of EP7 volume version. And about Ep 7... it's something I've been wondering but that probably will remain without an answer. We learnt what happened on the military base by Kinzo. Kinzo however wasn't present when the Japanese soldiers tried to kill the Italians with a grenade that didn't explode and, apparently, didn't have the time to talk with a Japanese soldier and have the retelling of what had happened. Beatrice is also not present and when she asked Rubens what was going on he refused to tell her. That's real that Yamamoto mentioned the failure of a surprise attack with the grenade so Kinzo might have guessed how things went... but it's also real we've a red saying it was Kinzo who suggested to steal the Italian gold... And, interesting enough, when all the shooting happened Kinzo was someplace away... So what if it wasn't Yamamoto who started everything but Kinzo, suggesting to his companions to attack the Italians and then handing them a granade that didn't work in hope they would try and kill each other? Likely he didn't believe they would manage to kill so many Japanese, just that they would kill some and then get killed. If the Italians were to get killed the gold would remain to the Japanese, and if the Japanese were less... well when they would have to share the gold the portions would be bigger, wouldn't they? After all he apparently doesn't know the Italians are so good... on the other side he might have even gone around killing unsuspecting surviving Japanese so as to put the blame on the Italians and take the gold all for himself... And this plan would mirror Ep 7 Teaparty as getting rid of everyone with which she could have to share the gold was Kyrie's way to solve the problem... only with Kyrie it seems over the top because we assume Kyrie and Rudolf should have felt some affection for family members (Kyrie even considered killing Battler) and it seems a plan with low chances to work... while Kinzo has no attachment for the other Japanese soldiers. They're not his relatives and they bullied him. Also we know he successfully managed to likely put the blame for everything on the Italians and keep the gold for himself. So maybe Ep 7 Teaparty wasn't an hint on what happened on Rokkenjima in 1986 but on what happened on it when Kinzo got the gold... Just wondering... and I still think that: 1) the whole story about Italians hiding gold in Japan is pretty absurd and a plot contrivance 2) more or less I think the same as Kinzo managing to survive with Bice, not being suspected by the army and managing to get all the gold... although since Japan was probably in deep troubles back then this has a chance to be more believable than (1) or Kyrie's plan (in fact Kinzo could count on the fact they wouldn't investigate too much on who shoot who as they litterally had no time for it... and could probably hope no one would be sent on Rokkenjima again as, due to how things were going, there was no use for it... and since Japan was about to lose the war he could also assume American wouldn't feel the need to investigate on what had happened in the place... and anyway he had gold with which he could bribe them) |
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2013-02-03, 11:54 | Link #31837 |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Another interesting things about Ep 8 the manga is that it clarified more stuffs about red truth.
It confirms that there are various types of red, some working only on a single gameboard and another that works for all the gameboards and that's also a truth beyond doubt that applies outside of the catbox. Interesting enough Battler confirms he could have tricked Ange using red truth to declare their family was getting along... because on that gameboard they were. In short he would have used the first type of red truth (which can be taken as an implication that the second type of red couldn't be used? I wonder...). Battler also explains why it would be pointless, according to him, to tell Ange whatever truth (type 1 or type 2) and implies the real truth is something that would push Ange to reject it because that's not something she wishes to see/hear. In short fundamentally Battler believes that no matter what he says to Ange, she wouldn't accept it unless it's what she wants to be the truth, even if he were to say it in red. Interesting enough George says it's the first time they organize a party like this but Ange thinks she had already seen a thing like it... so there's to wonder if she's remembering something that wasn't in the visual novels and that happened... let's say in Rokkenjima in 1985? I've to say the new scenes and info that have been added to Ep 8 manga version make it rather interesting! THANK YOU SO MUCH! |
2013-02-03, 19:56 | Link #31838 | |
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Also I find it funny how the manga seems to be more or less a huge revision of the original VN's. |
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2013-02-04, 00:18 | Link #31839 | |
The True Culprit
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2013-02-05, 09:18 | Link #31840 |
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Also important is that manga 8 states the message bottles were "derivative tales I created on the way, while I worked out the details for my game boards with you"
Which implies that the message bottles aren't A) the final product and B) different to the game boards Battler (or at least we through the novel) actually saw. The thing with the red truth was nicely summarised, but sort of unnecessary in that we knew there were truths for one game board and truths for them all. It seems interesting that the truths for them all do/can apply to the world beyond the gameboard. So any overarching truth (except maybe Erika's stuff) is potentially prime material. Also besides outright lying, you only need so much real gold to create a pretty convincing huge mountain of the stuff. Though unrealistic as it is, the reds by Lambda sort of imply that there is just a huge pile of gold lying around. |
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