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Old 2013-02-12, 07:53   Link #161
El_Negro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
I don't think anyone's okay with mass murder (here). I would like to point out that the entire clan was in on it.
Nope only the higher-ups/elite of the Uchiha clan plotted rebellion remember the 3rd mentioned that there were innocents such as children, women and civilians who were not involved. That's just generalizing

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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
I don't think Tobirama was intentionally setting them up for anything. He did want to keep them in a position where they could be closely monitored, but beyond that, I believe he wanted them to be a beneficial force in Konoha. He drew animosity from members of the clan who figured out his ulterior motive, but most, (including Sasuke's father) seemed to have a great deal of pride for their role as Konoha's police force
The way it seems he was trying to find a way to use their power for the greater good, he even admitted that he knew the coup de tat was coming sooner or later well sooner anyways.

Last edited by james0246; 2013-02-12 at 10:48. Reason: double post...
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Old 2013-02-12, 10:25   Link #162
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Excuse me but, is Naruto on a break this week?
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Old 2013-02-12, 10:42   Link #163
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by gibits View Post
Mall cops with the authority to detain you? Hey I don't like cops either but I still know not to mess with them. Why? Because they have the power to ruin me. I'm pretty sure Itachi was part of ANBU so it wasn't like they were excluded from "elite" stuff.
itachi was in anbu as part of his double agent mission. he fed the uchiha little inklings of anbu plans, but nothing major. in the flashbacks his father reminds him that he is their spy because itachi wasn't providing enough information to the uchiha. his real purpose was to spy on the uchiha for the konoha elders and to thwart their coup d'etat

i think shisui was also in the anbu ranks but he was also on konoha's side like itachi. there may have been other uchiha in anbu, but nobody of consequence clearly. the loyal uchiha had no true positions in any kind of power in konoha
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Old 2013-02-12, 12:12   Link #164
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Originally Posted by El_Negro View Post
Nope only the higher-ups/elite of the Uchiha clan plotted rebellion remember the 3rd mentioned that there were innocents such as children, women and civilians who were not involved. That's just generalizing
...So the entire clan was in on it. Or are you saying that the Uchiha were all about equality and letting every single woman or child have a say?
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Old 2013-02-12, 12:13   Link #165
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
itachi was in anbu as part of his double agent mission. he fed the uchiha little inklings of anbu plans, but nothing major. in the flashbacks his father reminds him that he is their spy because itachi wasn't providing enough information to the uchiha. his real purpose was to spy on the uchiha for the konoha elders and to thwart their coup d'etat

i think shisui was also in the anbu ranks but he was also on konoha's side like itachi. there may have been other uchiha in anbu, but nobody of consequence clearly. the loyal uchiha had no true positions in any kind of power in konoha
i figured shisui was in root since he had the baby butter knife on his back like they all seem to have...but there is no evidence of the vow of silence seal danzo uses so idk...
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Old 2013-02-12, 15:19   Link #166
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my bold prediction for sasuke's next question:

"orochimaru, what do the akatsuki rings mean?"
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Old 2013-02-12, 16:14   Link #167
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
my bold prediction for sasuke's next question:

"orochimaru, what do the akatsuki rings mean?"
earth, wind, water,fire, heart to summon captain planet to stop the jyubii
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Old 2013-02-12, 21:19   Link #168
El_Negro
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
...So the entire clan was in on it. Or are you saying that the Uchiha were all about equality and letting every single woman or child have a say?
No the just stating that there were people in the clan who were not aware that their own clan was planning to overthrow the konoha government for the clan's benefit. For instance, I didn't see Sasuke's Aunt or Uncle at the meetings so we can't assume they would know what's going unless Kishi tells us in the manga or databooks
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Old 2013-02-12, 22:22   Link #169
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I think you are overstating the sacrifice. You can still be a "bad person" but sacrifice yourself for family and friends (and country). Nagato is a bad person, but he still sacrificed himself in the end for what he believed to be a higher cause. Itachi is a bad person, but he still sacrificed himself for his brother. If you commit extreme acts of cruelty (edit: or just extreme acts in general) you are generally a bad person, and Tobirama committed such acts (even if he felt it was due to the fact that the Uchiha are biologically driven to insanity whenever they get any power).

Tobirama sacrificed himself for the simple reason that it was more practical for his team to survive and lead Konoha than it was for him to survive but the future generation die. He didn't sacrifice himself out of the kindness of his heart, nor do I think he was being altruistic in any respect. He sacrificed himself because logically he was the only one there that could do what needed to be done while also helping his village. (Shikimaru did something similar during the Sound/Sand invasion.)
First they're not robots, to sacrifice your life for the sake of others is not a matter of practicality and logic it's a matter of ideal. Now I'm not saying the mere fact to believe in something greater than yourself and lay down your life for it is in itself what make someone good or bad but it is a measure of selflessness and it's nonsense to simply dismiss it as a practical issue. A better counter would be that there is a difference between altruism and duty or loyalty which I'd be hard pressed to challenge since the 2nd Hokage seems to embody that but it's still a far cry from the cost–benefit assessment you're trying to portray.
You've mentioned Itachi and I think it's a great example to show you that you're wrong (granted that we both agree that we're discussing this purely from this story point of view). I'd argue that the author went to almost unsurpassed length to explain that Itachi wasn't a bad person, that he was in fact quite the opposite, too good for this world even. The editorial view of Kishimoto is that Itachi cannot possibly be blamed for what happened, he's a virtually perfect man put in an awful situation and whose sole flaw was to be too self-reliant. He isn't a bad person, he was wrong. You said that since it's established that Naruto represent Good then it stands to reason that all who don't behave as he does are bad but it is incorrect. It only makes them wrong.

Two other things to consider are also that their world is firmly based on the principle that people are good before the society they live in twist them into worse aspects of themselves and that death is revelatory of their true nature. For example someone like Jiraiya who squandered most of his life is still a true hero because of his selflessness at the end. Another example of a less seemingly good natured person would be Kisame whose death reveled that despite his life and deeds his true nature was one of pure loyalty.

Long story short very few of the characters are truly bad people, most are simply misguided and even the worst among them usually (if not all the time) used to be good people whose flaws were twisted beyond recognition by the ninja system which transformed them into monsters.

Quote:
As for the Uchiha being a lost cause.
[...] If Tobirama is correct in his assessment, then they were always going to be a ticking time bomb, he simply, and stupidly, helped speed up their destruction.

Honestly, I do not know if Hashirama appealed to their humanity or he simply made them complacent, whatever the case it is hard to see how simply treating the Uchiha with kindness helped to stave off the monster that presumably lives inside of them. Hopefully Hashirama will be able to discuss this problem next chapter and give us some further insight into why he felt the Uchiha could be saved (whereas Tobirama felt they were doomed since birth).
That's probably Naruto's job and not Hashirama.
Basically the one true vilain of the story is the ninja system. Hashirama lessened this evil with the creation of ninja village but it fell short of a true solution (or at least he died before he could do better).
As far as Tobirama is concerned the village is the final answer, anything that could threaten it must thus be dealt with whereas in Madara's point of view there is no solution because this is just the way reality is, thus his answer is to gain enough power to physically deny reality.
Both will be proved wrong by Naruto because of some cheesy speech I don't care to fathom yet.
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Old 2013-02-13, 01:33   Link #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco Bell View Post
earth, wind, water,fire, heart to summon captain planet to stop the jyubii
You know, I made almost that same reference a few pages back

Tobirama.....
Hashirama.....
Hiruzen.....
Minato.....
Will of the Leaf!

By your powers combined, I am Captain Hokage!
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Old 2013-02-13, 12:44   Link #171
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Looks like Yamato's mean face was inherited from the First Hokage, lol
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Old 2013-02-13, 15:28   Link #172
Dengar
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They're not related.
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Old 2013-02-13, 17:12   Link #173
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
They're not related.
they're arguably more related than family. yamato was a test tube baby made out of hashirama's cells. he's basically a weak version of hashirama. that said, i don't see much resemblance...
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Old 2013-02-13, 17:54   Link #174
Hunter
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He's not, Orochimaru kidnapped infants and spliced their genes with Hashirama's in order to reproduce the Kekkei Genkai.
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Old 2013-02-13, 20:27   Link #175
itachi-san314
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He's not, Orochimaru kidnapped infants and spliced their genes with Hashirama's in order to reproduce the Kekkei Genkai.
oh yea. i forgot that orochimaru used actual children as the base for the experiment. thanks. makes sense then
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