[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

It's pretty clearly indicated that Shannon was a fabricated person from quite early on because:

• The first set of staky-servants complained about how Yasu had her own room,
• but in Yasu's first-person narrative she was roommates with Shannon.

Although there is also one odd point in the latter set of staky-servants' ghost stories where Berune mentions both Yasu and Shannon in the same sentence as though they were different people. I'm still not sure what's going on there.

After a quick check on EP7
If I'm not mistaken, the stake-servants complain that Yasu was the only one who doesn't have to be in a 3 person room, they don't mention that Yasu has a 1 person room, it could be a 2 person room (since Shannon is a senior, it's easier to badmouth Yasu)

EDIT:

Spoiler:

お勤めのない日は新島の寮に帰り、自分に与えられた部屋で自由に過ごすことが出来る。
　一応、大人の寮母がいて食事や消灯の時間を厳しく管理していたが、福音の家でそういう生活には慣れている ので、苦にはならなかった。
　部屋は、少し大きめのものでそれぞれが３人部屋になっていた。
　しかし、人数の関係か幸運なのか、我は３人部屋にはならなかった

「寮でのお部屋も一緒だね。」
＜紗音


And then:

「ねぇ、ガラシさん～。何でヤスだけは３人部屋じゃないわけですかー。」

「知らないわよ、部屋の割り振りは源次さまが決めてんだもの。私だって納得行かないわよ。」
＜ルシファ

「ですよねー！　普通、２ぃ２ぃにしますよねぇ？！」

[haguruma]

I would still say that many things indicate that Shannon was an actual servant from Fukuin, maybe even shared a connection with Yasu, and Yasu tried to be like her best as possible.

It's not unlikely from any perspective. We know that normally Fukuin children only spent a very limited amount of time as servants on Rokkenjima and the graduate like from a prestigious school. Assuming the original Shannon was already a servant when Yasu started working on Rokkenjima, Battler might not have even met the original Shannon and the memory of other people might be hazy at best.

[Renall]

Let's say that's true though. Wouldn't that mean "original Shannon" is still around somewhere? She quit years before the Incident, and as far as we know no Fukuin servant other than Yasu was present on the island. So no Fukuin servant other than Yasu would be dead (at least not of any causes we're aware of).

But there are two named in the message bottles. Surely somebody would've checked the Fukuin records to see whether there were any servants by those servant names, or at least checked for real names that might match up. One of several things would then happen:

• Shannon is Yasu's servant name. The person Yasu called "Shannon" was someone else. People don't know who Kanon is and presumably won't find much of anyone who remembers him.
• Kanon is Yasu's servant name. People are aware of his/her existence on the island and accept this. However, Shannon is tracked down to a servant who is most certainly alive, was not present on the island, and hasn't even worked for the Ushiromiya family since the mid-70s. This narrows down dramatically the number of people likely as the author of those stories.
• Neither Shannon nor Kanon is Yasu's servant name. People either don't know Yasu was there and can't find anything about Kanon and know Shannon didn't work there at the time the stories place her there. People do however know Yasu existed, and have no idea why she wasn't in the stories because everybody knows she was working that weekend (it'd be on the schedules, at least).
• Shkanon is happening in real life and current servants believe there is both a Shannon and a Kanon there. People would still notice the odd issue of two Shannons within ten years, but might shrug it off. Information about Shannon/Kanon would seemingly be quite lackluster, however; only one will have been known to have been working there very long and only one will be known from school.
• Crackpot Scenario: The message bottles actually do only list one servant, and Shkanon is an embellishment by Beatrice.

In any iteration, it seems like there would be some massive gaps in the scenario that enterprising Witch Hunters ought to have fixated on immediately. In a couple of cases, the information that ought to be available is so damning that it basically outright proves Yasu was the author of the message bottle stories, because literally no one else has the necessary background to know some of that information.

[rogerpepitone]

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

After a quick check on EP7
If I'm not mistaken, the stake-servants complain that Yasu was the only one who doesn't have to be in a 3 person room, they don't mention that Yasu has a 1 person room, it could be a 2 person room (since Shannon is a senior, it's easier to badmouth Yasu)

Case 1: There are five Fukuin servants spread over two rooms, three in one room, two in the other. Shannon, as the senior servant, get her choice of room and roommate(s). What's to complain about?

Case 2: There are four servants spread over two rooms, three in one room and one in the other. The most junior servant gets the single. Barring something like the single being a much smaller room, the servants would be very likely to ask why the rooms aren't split two and two, and why the junior servant gets the best room.

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

Case 1: There are five Fukuin servants spread over two rooms, three in one room, two in the other. Shannon, as the senior servant, get her choice of room and roommate(s). What's to complain about?

「知らないわよ、部屋の割り振りは源次さまが決めてんだもの。私だって納得行かないわよ。」

Genji is the one who decided the assigning of rooms

Why give a junior the benefit of getting a less cramped room?
Maybe that's what they are complaining about

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

After a quick check on EP7
If I'm not mistaken, the stake-servants complain that Yasu was the only one who doesn't have to be in a 3 person room, they don't mention that Yasu has a 1 person room, it could be a 2 person room (since Shannon is a senior, it's easier to badmouth Yasu)

EDIT:

Spoiler:

お勤めのない日は新島の寮に帰り、自分に与えられた部屋で自由に過ごすことが出来る。
　一応、大人の寮母がいて食事や消灯の時間を厳しく管理していたが、福音の家でそういう生活には慣れている ので、苦にはならなかった。
　部屋は、少し大きめのものでそれぞれが３人部屋になっていた。
　しかし、人数の関係か幸運なのか、我は３人部屋にはならなかった

「寮でのお部屋も一緒だね。」
＜紗音


And then:

「ねぇ、ガラシさん～。何でヤスだけは３人部屋じゃないわけですかー。」

「知らないわよ、部屋の割り振りは源次さまが決めてんだもの。私だって納得行かないわよ。」
＜ルシファ

「ですよねー！　普通、２ぃ２ぃにしますよねぇ？！」

But then Yasu wouldn't be the only one to be in a 2 persons room.
And when Yasu rewrote the world and she 'part ways' with Shannon it's stated the room was always a single room.

I turned around to face my bed.
.........?
My bed wasn't there.
There was no bed in this room except the one I had just turned my back on.
If I'm the only one in this room, and the only bed is the one behind me, ......that must mean it's my bed.
......That feels wrong, for some reason.
The bed sheets are all disarranged, as though someone had slipped out of them.
Who did...?
This is a single-person room with me in it, right?
So, that there is my bed, and the traces of someone crawling out...mean that I was just sleeping there until a second ago...?
......But, for some reason...
that bed......
doesn't feel like my bed.
However, though all the other kids shared rooms, I, Shannon, was given a single-person room.
So, there's only one bed.
And it must be mine.

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

But then Yasu wouldn't be the only one to be in a 2 persons room.
And when Yasu rewrote the world and she 'part ways' with Shannon it's stated the room was always a single room.

We can twist that line in a few ways.
The other person would be 'Shannon', a senior.
You could say she had another status (Like midground between Genji and lowly servants), so the stake-servants do not lump her together with Yasu and the stakes.


And, assuming Shannon was a real person, she obviously didn't disappear overnight like Clare's narration seems to imply.
And when 'Shannon' graduated from being a servant, Genji removed her bed and stuff and made it a single room for Yasu.


What I mean with all this is that it's up in the air. It's not conclusive whether 'Shannon' existed or not.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

After a quick check on EP7
If I'm not mistaken, the stake-servants complain that Yasu was the only one who doesn't have to be in a 3 person room, they don't mention that Yasu has a 1 person room, it could be a 2 person room (since Shannon is a senior, it's easier to badmouth Yasu)

EDIT:

Spoiler:

お勤めのない日は新島の寮に帰り、自分に与えられた部屋で自由に過ごすことが出来る。
　一応、大人の寮母がいて食事や消灯の時間を厳しく管理していたが、福音の家でそういう生活には慣れている ので、苦にはならなかった。
　部屋は、少し大きめのものでそれぞれが３人部屋になっていた。
　しかし、人数の関係か幸運なのか、我は３人部屋にはならなかった

「寮でのお部屋も一緒だね。」
＜紗音


And then:

「ねぇ、ガラシさん～。何でヤスだけは３人部屋じゃないわけですかー。」

「知らないわよ、部屋の割り振りは源次さまが決めてんだもの。私だって納得行かないわよ。」
＜ルシファ

「ですよねー！　普通、２ぃ２ぃにしますよねぇ？！」

That last line is a complaint that a 3-1 split should be a 2-2 split.

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

That last line is a complaint that a 3-1 split should be a 2-2 split.

Well,
There is this line before:
「つか、部屋狭いよね。お屋敷広すぎんのに、寮はケチりすぎー。」

Maybe she is complaining that the Ushiromiya, being so rich, should have enough rooms for 2-2-2-2 splits (we don't know how many servants live in the dorms and take turns, though), instead of 3-3-2, for example.

Just trying to match the pieces of info, though. (Berune mentioning Shannon and the room split matter). Not being too adamant here.

[Wanderer]

I reaaaaaally don't see it. If there was some other Shannon around, she wasn't actually Yasu's roommate.

That one comment from Berune really vexes me, I must say. Otherwise Yasu=nickname and Shannon=blessed name accounts for everything so nicely. I want a good excuse to dismiss it.

[battle22]

Wanderer you posted a lot on knownomore's video XDD . Felt epic when I saw a fellow animesuki member.

[Renall]

I don't know if I even want to know how that went. That seems like quite the rough territory.

[Drifloon]

What is this comment from Berune you're talking about? I don't have the script handy, but I don't remember "Shannon" ever being acknowledged by anyone but Yasu in those scenes.

And I commented a lot on those videos a while back, too. He never responded to most of it, though.

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by Drifloon

What is this comment from Berune you're talking about? I don't have the script handy, but I don't remember "Shannon" ever being acknowledged by anyone but Yasu in those scenes.

And I commented a lot on those videos a while back, too. He never responded to most of it, though.

When the new servants are being negligent with the keys:

「い、いいですか。このお屋敷には魔女が住んでるんですよ…？」
<Yasu> L-listen. A witch lives in this mansion, you know...?
「おぉ、ベアトリーチェよ～！」
＜ベルゼ
[Belze] Ooh, Beatrice~!
「きゃっはははは！　それ似てるぅ～！」
＜アスモ
[Asmo] Kyaahahahaha! It's just like that~!
「まさか、紗音ちゃんも。それ信じてるわけじゃないですよねー？」
＜ベルゼ
[Belze] Don't tell me you believe in that, too, Shannon-chan?
「い、いえ、本当にいるんですよ…。物を放ったらかしにしておくと、魔女が悪戯して隠したりするんですよ… 。」
＜紗音
[Shannon] N-no, she really exists.... If you leave your stuff lying around, the witch will make a prank and hide them....


And after that, when Berune is talking about the key missing from the bunch and witches:

違うよ！！@　私、ヤスに、紗音に、熊沢さんとかにも相談したの！@　そしたら、やっぱり魔女はいるって. ..。@
"You're wrong!! I discussed with Yasu, Shannon, and Kumasawa-san about it! And they said that the witch really exists...

Originally Posted by Wanderer

I reaaaaaally don't see it. If there was some other Shannon around, she wasn't actually Yasu's roommate.

That one comment from Berune really vexes me, I must say. Otherwise Yasu=nickname and Shannon=blessed name accounts for everything so nicely. I want a good excuse to dismiss it.

Maybe Shannon existed, she was Yasu's idol, but they never were that close and didn't even share rooms. Shannon in her room was the delusion, even though she was actually present in the mansion.


Obviously, there's the matter of the servant name matching with the real name: 紗音 (Shannon) and 紗代 (Sayo) (same first kanji). But you could dodge that by saying that 70's Shannon had a different name than Shannon. (And who knows if Sayo is really Yasuda's first name)

[Renall]

Couldn't it just be an unreliable narrator situation? Yasu imagines Shannon existing in other people's dialogue. She's already seeing and speaking to people and beings that don't really exist, so I don't see why she couldn't deliberately misconstruct other people's dialogue too.

Granted I don't like it as much as something that accounts for the dialogue actually happening, but it's a possibility at least when dealing with unreliable narrators.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

Maybe Shannon existed, she was Yasu's idol, but they never were that close and didn't even share rooms. Shannon in her room was the delusion, even though she was actually present in the mansion.

There would be a couple of problems. Battler knew her by the name of Shannon and never assumed she had another until he grew. If she had switched name he should know. Also, how did she manage to switch name? The 'blessed names' were imposed on the servants, it's not like they could chose them. And, as a child, she was represented as a young Shannon when chatting with Battler. This would mean she not only took Shannon's name but also her look.

Though Berune's sentence is interesting... although it might not be reliable, same as the scenes where there's Shannon and Kanon together with Genji.

Oh well, I'm curious to see how the manga will deal with it though personally I tend to think that if a model for Shannon existed the parallel between said model and Shannon was the same as the one between Genji and Ronove or Kumasawa and Virgilia.

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

There would be a couple of problems. Battler knew her by the name of Shannon and never assumed she had another until he grew. If she had switched name he should know. Also, how did she manage to switch name? The 'blessed names' were imposed on the servants, it's not like they could chose them. And, as a child, she was represented as a young Shannon when chatting with Battler. This would mean she not only took Shannon's name but also her look.

Though Berune's sentence is interesting... although it might not be reliable, same as the scenes where there's Shannon and Kanon together with Genji.

Oh well, I'm curious to see how the manga will deal with it though personally I tend to think that if a model for Shannon existed the parallel between said model and Shannon was the same as the one between Genji and Ronove or Kumasawa and Virgilia.

If you really want to go for a 70's Shannon really existing, these are no problem


We don't know if Battler knows about a name change or not. (How can we be sure he'd know?)
And even if he knew about that, it's not his business. It's a servant thing.


Also, you could dodge those by saying that 70's Shannon had a different name (and look) than Shannon, if you assume a not 100% faithful 'narration' (narration that include image ).

When Yasu becomes a Witch and disappears, and Shannon is alone in the room, that'd be like: 'Shannon' graduated and left the mansion, Yasu is a witch in her mind, and outwardly, she tries to be like the old 'Shannon'


Yeah, this is contrived as f**k



EDIT:
違うよ！！@　私、ヤスに、紗音に、熊沢さんとかにも相談したの！@　そしたら、やっぱり魔女 はいるって. ..。@
"You're wrong!! I discussed with Yasu, Shannon, and Kumasawa-san about it! And they said that the witch really exists...


This line happens in the Meta world when they are discussing with Zepar and Furfur.
Can this still qualify as 'unreliable narrator'?

[Drifloon]

Disregarding the stuff from the meta-part since it's meta and those theatre scenes have a lot of weirdness anyway...I don't really think that first quote from Berune definitively implies that Shannon's a different person. Yasu STARTED to mention the witch, then Berune cut in with a silly impression of Kinzo and then said "Don't tell me you believe in that too [like Kinzo does], Shannon-chan?"

Well, that assumes that Berune would even call Yasu "Shannon-chan", but she's not one of the original batch of servants so it would possibly make sense that the nickname 'Yasu' didn't stick when the new servants came in. Well, heck, we know it has to have been phased out eventually since everyone calls her Shannon in the present. (I wonder how Asune and Berune usually address Yasu, if they do at all? Can someone look through the script and check?)

[Renall]

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

EDIT:
違うよ！！@　私、ヤスに、紗音に、熊沢さんとかにも相談したの！@　そしたら、やっぱり魔女 はいるって. ..。@
"You're wrong!! I discussed with Yasu, Shannon, and Kumasawa-san about it! And they said that the witch really exists...


This line happens in the Meta world when they are discussing with Zepar and Furfur.
Can this still qualify as 'unreliable narrator'?

Really, most things in ep7 shouldn't be unreliable-narrator stuff, if only because everyone talking to Will is supposedly obliged to be truthful and the theater and Clair bits are supposed to be confessional.

Yet Yasu is, by his/her very nature, inherently unreliable as a narrator to some extent. So in summation: Heck if I know.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by battle22

Wanderer you posted a lot on knownomore's video XDD . Felt epic when I saw a fellow animesuki member.

I think I mostly just liked arguing with him. But it seems he's completely done with that, as he hasn't commented about Umineko in months despite being active making and commenting on his usual atheist videos. I had quite a lot of momentum in our debates around that time, so maybe that contributed. Or maybe not- it was always hard to predict which comments he'd respond to. I still lurk there, though, and reply to other peoples' comments. Just wasting time, really.

Drifloon has commented there a fair amount, too. LyricalAura a couple times. pikablu... some others as well. Not everyone has the same SN either, so there could be more I don't even realize.

Originally Posted by Renall

I don't know if I even want to know how that went. That seems like quite the rough territory.

Not really. KnownNoMore was just kinda... weird. He made a lot of strange assumptions but then worked from them pretty intelligently. Also, his actual debating was quite civil, notwithstanding the arrogant tone of his videos.