Shingeki no Kyojin (Attack on Titan) - Manga discussion

[marvelB]

^Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about the nature of the reveal, but I did find it pretty surprising that it was handled that way. Heck, it might have even been better that way considering how long the fan theories about those two have been around prior to the reveal.


That being said, I'm now even more curious as to how that ape titan is connected to this whole conspiracy.....

[Poetic Justice]

What a retarded plot twist, No seriously. Might as well make everyone in the training group be Titans.

[marvelB]

^But would you still consider it "retarded" despite all of the hints and foreshadowing we had prior prior to said twist?

[Poetic Justice]

Yes, Because if they really wanted to snatch him they could have done it back when they were still in the training group. Not to mention all the character development of Rynar up to now does not make any sense. With Annie it fit with her character and the story well enough.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Poetic Justice

Yes, Because if they really wanted to snatch him they could have done it back when they were still in the training group.

What possible reason could they have had for wanting him while they were in training? I think you need to brush up on the actual continuity of events in this series.

[Sixth]

Originally Posted by Poetic Justice

Yes, Because if they really wanted to snatch him they could have done it back when they were still in the training group. Not to mention all the character development of Rynar up to now does not make any sense. With Annie it fit with her character and the story well enough.

Because they don't know that Eren can become a titan? Heck, even Eren was clueless about that until he got eaten by a titan.

[desrtsku]

Originally Posted by Poetic Justice

Yes, Because if they really wanted to snatch him they could have done it back when they were still in the training group.

You actually do understand that they only discovered Eren can change into Titan after the invasion, right? And since then they didn't have any opportunities to get close to him, right?

Originally Posted by Poetic Justice

Not to mention all the character development of Rynar up to now does not make any sense. With Annie it fit with her character and the story well enough.

What about this "Reiner's character development not making any sense" while Annie's does?
It's not fitting with the story? Whilst Annie's is? You're talking like everything behind Annie's motivations so far are crystal clear, while Reiner's aren't. We've got nothing on any of the two of them except the fact they were somehow chased away from their place and their needs of finding other Titan morphing people/humanity extermination to resolve their problems. And it should be freaking clear by now that the 3 of them (Reiner, Berntold and Annie) are connected, so anything plot relevant concerning one should be of the same importance for the others.
Not fitting with his character, huh? Sorry but both of them remained consistent with how they were depicted during the training camp ... no actually, it looks like they can even be put in parallel for comparison. Reiner is a big guy, Annie is really small ... like almost as tiny as Historia. Reiner's always been a bro, he was always cool, nice and acts friendly around the other characters but can be a bit forceful at times and is in fact really weak on the inside ; just like how Annie was always cold, distant, sarcastic and would rarely say anything to others, yet can be really violent and confident when she's forced to. Now look at how both of them were exposed : Reiner spat out everything as if he was taking his relationship with Eren as granted, whilst Annie mostly remained silent and would only blurt out snarks and ironical statements when she spoke. The same way, Annie and Eren where reluctant to fight with each other during the training camp and wouldn't have if it wasn't for Reiner messing around => Funny how Reiner was indirectly responsible of Eren fighting Annie in Titan form, and guess what? Both of Annie and Eren, at some point, showed reluctance to fight the other whilst knowing the other's identity. For Reiner vs Eren however, there's no hesitation in there, Reiner immediately got serious when he realized Eren wasn't on his side, and Eren didn't think twice about changing into his Titan form ... and who was the first person who casually trained with Eren during the training camp, again?
It is pretty clear Annie and Reiner are opposite characters especially put there to question Eren's motivations, everything about Annie would make him "question himself", while he's "more himself" around Reiner.

Moreover, remember everything Reiner said back during the training camp : "I'll do it no matter what it takes" + "we must stand ready to use force" + "that is the responsibility of a soldier" ... and look at this present chapter, would you say none of his words and actions fits that?

[Jan-Poo]

You actually do understand that they only discovered Eren can change into Titan after the invasion, right? And since then they didn't have any opportunities to get close to him, right?

There's a bit of a problem either way in my opinion.

Case A: They knew about Eren's situation, in which case it's hard to understand why they had to wait 5 years to kidnap him.

Case B: They didn't know about Eren, and then you need to face the fact that they were casually assigned to the same squad where the one who would become their main objective was. Not to mention that in the same squad there is already casually another human titan that they met in the past whom they were completely unaware of (Ymir).

There are too many fortuitous coincidences in a world where apparently human titans were never heard of and suddenly there are at least 5 all from the same training team, not to mention that four of them were on the top five of the best recruits (behind Mikasa, which is inhuman in her own way).

Still there are many things that are left without any explanations, so I think it's early to make a judgement. Maybe there is a good explanation, but right now there isn't any, I'll just wait and see.

And I would wait to say that "obviously they didn't know about Eren", because we can't really be sure of that, maybe they did, but they had a reason to wait. One possibility is that they had to wait for him to awaken before taking action, though I have absolutely no clue as to why.

There's one thing about Reiner that struck me as very odd reading the past chapters, and that's the fact that he actually though he would die there in that tower, which at first I thought it was inconsistent with the fact that he can become a titan himself and it's very unlikely that he'd rather die than transforming.
Then I realized that he probably couldn't transform because there was no sunlight, so he actually risked his life.

I'm a bit confused about the sunlight requirement for transformations into titan because we have at least two cases with Eren where he transformed without a direct exposure. One was the first time when he was inside the titan's stomach, the second is when he was below the ground just before fighting Annie for the second time, the same underground tunnel she refused to enter because allegedly if she did she wouldn't be able to transform...

Another thing is... Berthold implies that Reiner was still a warrior in the past... but just how old are they? I surmised that the members of that training team had all more or less the same age, but Eren, Mikasa and Armin were just kids five years before. Unless they are ageless or older than they look, it would mean that the armored titan and the 50 meter titan that attacked Wall Maria in the past were kids.

[desrtsku]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

There's a bit of a problem either way in my opinion.

Case A: They knew about Eren's situation, in which case it's hard to understand why they had to wait 5 years to kidnap him.

Case B: They didn't know about Eren, and then you need to face the fact that they were casually assigned to the same squad where the one who would become their main objective was. Not to mention that in the same squad there is already casually another human titan that they met in the past whom they were completely unaware of (Ymir).

There are too many fortuitous coincidences in a world where apparently human titans were never heard of and suddenly there are at least 5 all from the same training team, not to mention that four of them were on the top five of the best recruits (behind Mikasa, which is inhuman in her own way).

No need to discuss it, it's obviously case B, unless you can differentiate a titan from a human being just by examining their human form that is. But we already know they can't (with Ymir's case), even the guy who could detect titans using his flair can't do that.

Fortuitous coincidence? Why they are in the same training squad?
There are other training squads? ... oh well, chap 31 implied something like that so it must be true. Well that doesn't change the fact everything still makes sense to a certain extent. Because, with the exception of Ymir, they are all related to the titan invasion from 5 years ago. I don't think the author would even try to explain that because it should be quite obvious.

Based on the assumption there are several training camps going on at the same time and with the newbies respectively stationing in different towns when they end, here's what you get :
Reiner, Annie and Berntold were likely to be always together from the very beginning ... it's a fact. If they would go on a training camp they would obviously go for the closest place to the southern town of wall Maria (the place invaded in chap 1-2 = Eren's former town) which in this case was the southern town of wall Rose ( the second town invaded = the one closest to Eren's former town ... and likely to be Eren's town before he went on the training camp). It also helps that they are to be stationed in that place for a few days after the end of the training camp. For what reason? Probably just to make the colossal titan's attack coherent (why would it attack a place super far from the previous one?). => the circumstance implies that ever since they invaded Eren's town they were fated to be with him.
People are likely aware of that fact, which make that town the virtually most dangerous place in their territory in eyes of many, hence why Historia (-> Ymir too) would think of going in there. => no matter where they invaded, Historia and Ymir would likely get close to that place.

Why the 4 of them with the exception of Mikasa are all in top 5. Because they are all just freaking monsters even in their human form. According to Jean, Reiner is far above anyone else in their group except for Mikasa, he's so strong could even lift a small titan. Annie sent Reiner and Eren flying. Eren, the guy who killed two grown ups when he was kid ... and sent Reiner flying. Berntold ... he's taller than Reiner. But a more simple way to interpret it is that, regardless of their behaviour, all 5 of them are clearly the most motivated people in the group, and they all had a dark past that made them potential killing machines ever since they were kids. (compare to Connie, Sasha, dead Marco, etc ... >.> ... seriously)
You might also think of it a plot point about how a titan's potential can be evaluated from their human form's potential. (for example this following statement concerning their titan form is already a given : Reiner/Berntold>Annie>Eren>>>>>>>Ymir)

in a world where apparently human titans were never heard of

-> "Ilse Langner" -> "ymir-sama" -> "who do you think the enemy is?" -> sniffing everyone he meets -> the religious group ...

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Still there are many things that are left without any explanations, so I think it's early to make a judgement. Maybe there is a good explanation, but right now there isn't any, I'll just wait and see.

Hahem, "no explanations", maybe, maybe not, but what's the point of explaining everything from the get go for a mystery genre? ... however if it's about hints and foreshadowing, there's a ridiculous amount of them. Just need to pay attention to the details.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

And I would wait to say that "obviously they didn't know about Eren", because we can't really be sure of that, maybe they did, but they had a reason to wait. One possibility is that they had to wait for him to awaken before taking action, though I have absolutely no clue as to why.

B-bu-but, you said yourself that's hardly believable!

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

There's one thing about Reiner that struck me as very odd reading the past chapters, and that's the fact that he actually though he would die there in that tower, which at first I thought it was inconsistent with the fact that he can become a titan himself and it's very unlikely that he'd rather die than transforming.

He was ready to die!!!

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Then I realized that he probably couldn't transform because there was no sunlight, so he actually risked his life.
I'm a bit confused about the sunlight requirement for transformations into titan because we have at least two cases with Eren where he transformed without a direct exposure. One was the first time when he was inside the titan's stomach, the second is when he was below the ground just before fighting Annie for the second time, the same underground tunnel she refused to enter because allegedly if she did she wouldn't be able to transform...

Don't think of it that way.
First, there's nothing saying those guys have the same weakness (in fact there's nothing saying they even need sunlight to transform). And assuming it's the case, it's been specified it takes the titans several hours to run out of juice when deprived of sunlight (remember the experience with the two titans that crazy girl captured, one of them took an hour to run out of juice and the other one about twice that), and Eren was inside that titan stomach like for 30 second and was in emo mode underground for a few minutes. No inconsistencies there.
Secondly, it's been specified clearly during the recent chapters that certain titans (the ones from Connie's village) could move even without sunlight ... and that from dusk to dawn. Moreover, that crazy woman's initial plan to cover the hole in the wall (that doesn't exist) with Eren's powers implied Eren didn't have any sunlight restriction.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Unless they are ageless or older than they look, it would mean that the armored titan and the 50 meter titan that attacked Wall Maria in the past were kids.

well, what's weird about that? Eren and Mikasa killed grown up people at a younger age ... ok, that's not a very good example, but it's just to say that it's hard to stay completely sane after what they experienced.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by desrtsku

No need to discuss it, it's obviously case B, unless you can differentiate a titan from a human being just by examining their human form that is. But we already know they can't (with Ymir's case), even the guy who could detect titans using his flair can't do that.

There's so many things that we don't know that they might have known about Eren through other means. For Example it is strongly suggested that Eren's father experimented on his son to allow his titan transformation, and since doctor Jaeger is missing, it is entirely possible that they came to know about Eren through him or that they knew what he was doing and his son was a most likely test subject he could have used.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

Fortuitous coincidence? Why they are in the same training squad?
There are other training squads? ... oh well, chap 31 implied something like that so it must be true.

They are the 104th training squad, I suppose there are others. Plus during their first battle against the titans there were several new recruits that didn't seem to be all from the same squad, since they didn't seem to know everyone else.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

Well that doesn't change the fact everything still makes sense to a certain extent. Because, with the exception of Ymir, they are all related to the titan invasion from 5 years ago. I don't think the author would even try to explain that because it should be quite obvious.

Based on the assumption there are several training camps going on at the same time and with the newbies respectively stationing in different towns when they end, here's what you get :
Reiner, Annie and Berntold were likely to be always together from the very beginning ... it's a fact. If they would go on a training camp they would obviously go for the closest place to the southern town of wall Maria (the place invaded in chap 1-2 = Eren's former town) which in this case was the southern town of wall Rose ( the second town invaded = the one closest to Eren's former town

Actually this isn't obvious at all. There is no real advantage in putting all of your infiltrators in the same place, quite the contrary, and in fact that turned out to be a bad choice given how they were easily connected. Besides it is obvious that they didn't need to be all together by the simple fact that Annie was aiming for the military police, while Berthold and Reiner chose the scouting legion.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

It also helps that they are to be stationed in that place for a few days after the end of the training camp. For what reason? Probably just to make the colossal titan's attack coherent (why would it attack a place super far from the previous one?).

Why not? If they attack the same area it seems that they are aiming for a specific place rather than aiming for the total annihilation of the humans inside (in which case it wouldn't matter the side they decide to attack). Why would they want to give that impression?

Originally Posted by desrtsku

the circumstance implies that ever since they invaded Eren's town they were fated to be with him.

Only if they were about the same age, why did they wait that many years to enlist as recruits and infiltrate their enemies? Eren and his friends had to wait to be the old enough. It turns out that these human titans are about the same age, and that is a strange coincidence in itself.

I'm not saying that there's no explanation, there might be one, but that's definitely not something that you can dismiss as obvious or inevitable.
There might be something going on, for example they might be all children that were subjected to Doctor Jaeger's experiments.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

"Ilse Langner" -> "ymir-sama" -> "who do you think the enemy is?" -> sniffing everyone he meets -> the religious group ...

The first two are the same thing and Ymir is still in the same damn training squad. To argue against my point you need to show me hints that human titans were known to exist since a long time not all at once at the same time all together in the same squad, which is the strange fact I'm pointing out.

There is no indication that The captain of the scouting legion already suspected human titans since a long time, so that doesn't prove anything either. In fact everything suggest they never knew anything of the sort given how Hanji is so excited about Eren and how clueless she is about what he can or cannot do.

The religious group is the only one that probably knows the truth, but they always kept it under wrap, and they wouldn't have been able to if human titans were known by everyone else.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

Hahem, "no explanations", maybe, maybe not, but what's the point of explaining everything from the get go for a mystery genre? ... however if it's about hints and foreshadowing, there's a ridiculous amount of them. Just need to pay attention to the details.

Hence why I said that I suspend my judgement, I'm just pointing out that there's something odd, whether it will turn out to be an inconsistency or a clue to reason about that foreshadows an intricate plot is something that we will see.

About the ridiculous amount of foreshadowing, I actually reread the whole manga so far after the revelation of Bethold and Reiner to check for foreshadowings about them, but honestly I don't think there's that many. The only one that is clear enough is the part were he cut Annie's hand.

All the rest hints the opposite given how he is so incredibly sympathetic to those who have suffered attacks from the Titans. It makes me think that he is a real hypocrite given how many of those same people he caused the death of.

And regarding Berthold there's almost nothing to see. that guy rarely said a thing in the whole story and rarely appeared in any panels.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

B-bu-but, you said yourself that's hardly believable!

It's hardly believable either way. Unless I'm missing something. And I probably do.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

He was ready to die!!!

Of course he's ready to die, he's a warrior, but that doesn't mean he'd die pointlessly without fulfilling his mission. There was no point for him to letting himself die there when he had the chance to save himself. If the problem was busting his cover he could have killed the witnesses, they were fated to die anyway as far as he knew.

But I think he really couldn't transform, and that he really risked to die there, at least that's what his own thoughts tell us. This would also explain why he suddenly decided to reveal his identity to Eren. He probably had a mental breakdown after almost losing his life to a mindless titan far weaker than he is. He might have thought "the hell with this charade, I'm not going to get eaten by a titan when I can transform into one and be done with it".

Originally Posted by desrtsku

Don't think of it that way.
First, there's nothing saying those guys have the same weakness (in fact there's nothing saying they even need sunlight to transform). And assuming it's the case, it's been specified it takes the titans several hours to run out of juice when deprived of sunlight (remember the experience with the two titans that crazy girl captured, one of them took an hour to run out of juice and the other one about twice that), and Eren was inside that titan stomach like for 30 second and was in emo mode underground for a few minutes. No inconsistencies there.
Secondly, it's been specified clearly during the recent chapters that certain titans (the ones from Connie's village) could move even without sunlight ... and that from dusk to dawn. Moreover, that crazy woman's initial plan to cover the hole in the wall (that doesn't exist) with Eren's powers implied Eren didn't have any sunlight restriction.

And yet I keep getting mixed inputs about this. All that you said is correct but from the other side there's many things that tell us that titans need sunlight.
See the fact that Annie was brought underground for example, does that prevent her from transforming or not? And then there's the fact that Cultist man hurriedly asked to prevent sunlight from reaching the giant titan inside the wall.

It was also said that Titans are less active during night, but those titans that attacked Ymir, Reiner, Connie and everyone else in that castle seemed active enough to me.

It is also implied that Ymir transformed into titan during that flashback with Historia to save their companion, and it was nighttime back then.

In short, how sunlight affects titans and their transformation isn't clear at all.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

well, what's weird about that? Eren and Mikasa killed grown up people at a younger age ... ok, that's not a very good example, but it's just to say that it's hard to stay completely sane after what they experienced.

Well it is weird. Not saying that is ridiculous or unbelievable but it is weird. Kids that decide to attack and kill thousands of humans, and moreover they were warriors back then? It makes me think that there might be someone behind them who instructed them. Come to think of it, it is implied that Annie is following her father's wish.

[desrtsku]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

There's so many things that we don't know that they might have known about Eren through other means. For Example it is strongly suggested that Eren's father experimented on his son to allow his titan transformation, and since doctor Jaeger is missing, it is entirely possible that they came to know about Eren through him or that they knew what he was doing and his son was a most likely test subject he could have used.

Better postpone this until we have further info on his motives then.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

They are the 104th training squad, I suppose there are others. Plus during their first battle against the titans there were several new recruits that didn't seem to be all from the same squad, since they didn't seem to know everyone else.

Indeed, that's right.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Actually this isn't obvious at all. There is no real advantage in putting all of your infiltrators in the same place, quite the contrary, and in fact that turned out to be a bad choice given how they were easily connected. Besides it is obvious that they didn't need to be all together by the simple fact that Annie was aiming for the military police, while Berthold and Reiner chose the scouting legion.

But as we saw during all those event they likely need to act together for all of their plans to be a success. Berntold and Reiner need to be together to break a wall, Annie can't do anything on her own except calling titans (which is believed what she did during the invasions)
Even the capturing Eren plan, which was an improvisation, required some teaming up.
Bernthold also said during the training camp flashback that he was actually aiming to apply for the police and would rather leave the military force than go anywhere else (thus Reiner too, since he probably wouldn't go anywhere without Bernthold). Logically, it would mean the 3 of them would always be together ... probably the other reason why they needed to be among the top 10. The only reason why they took different ways during this part of the story was likely because it was needed to capture Eren (Reiner and Bernthold looking for the info and Annie doing the job.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Why not? If they attack the same area it seems that they are aiming for a specific place rather than aiming for the total annihilation of the humans inside (in which case it wouldn't matter the side they decide to attack). Why would they want to give that impression?

Because that wall was made so titans would aim for a specific place, being the agglomeration of human closest to them. And that's what they did, didn't they? Of course, they can just randomly attack whichever wall they want but that'll just raise the most informed people's suspicions.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Hence why I said that I suspend my judgement, I'm just pointing out that there's something odd, whether it will turn out to be an inconsistency or a clue to reason about that foreshadows an intricate plot is something that we will see.

About the ridiculous amount of foreshadowing, I actually reread the whole manga so far after the revelation of Bethold and Reiner to check for foreshadowings about them, but honestly I don't think there's that many. The only one that is clear enough is the part were he cut Annie's hand.

All the rest hints the opposite given how he is so incredibly sympathetic to those who have suffered attacks from the Titans. It makes me think that he is a real hypocrite given how many of those same people he caused the death of.

And regarding Berthold there's almost nothing to see. that guy rarely said a thing in the whole story and rarely appeared in any panels.

Better postpone this until we have further info on his motives then.[BIS]
Though, just some notes about the foreshadowing, I still positive about the fact there is a more than fair amount of them : for most of them you can check that mangafox wall of text that's popular on 4chan + Berntold looking at Annie when she decided not to join the scouting legion + this. Yes, they're not all evident and most of them are pretty forced but, when you really think about it, it makes sense.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

It's hardly believable either way. Unless I'm missing something. And I probably do.

We're all in the same boat, so I don't think I can blame you.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Of course he's ready to die, he's a warrior, but that doesn't mean he'd die pointlessly without fulfilling his mission. There was no point for him to letting himself die there when he had the chance to save himself. If the problem was busting his cover he could have killed the witnesses, they were fated to die anyway as far as he knew.

But I think he really couldn't transform, and that he really risked to die there, at least that's what his own thoughts tell us. This would also explain why he suddenly decided to reveal his identity to Eren. He probably had a mental breakdown after almost losing his life to a mindless titan far weaker than he is. He might have thought "the hell with this charade, I'm not going to get eaten by a titan when I can transform into one and be done with it".

Better postpone this until we have further info on his motives then.[BIS]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

And yet I keep getting mixed inputs about this. All that you said is correct but from the other side there's many things that tell us that titans need sunlight.
See the fact that Annie was brought underground for example, does that prevent her from transforming or not? And then there's the fact that Cultist man hurriedly asked to prevent sunlight from reaching the giant titan inside the wall.

It was also said that Titans are less active during night, but those titans that attacked Ymir, Reiner, Connie and everyone else in that castle seemed active enough to me.

It is also implied that Ymir transformed into titan during that flashback with Historia to save their companion, and it was nighttime back then.

In short, how sunlight affects titans and their transformation isn't clear at all.

When it comes to movement restriction (that one is pretty clear), well, "it varies from individual to individual" they said. Titans need energy to move and their main resource is sunlight. All of them need it but it takes longer for some of them to run out of juice once they don't have access to it.
When it comes to transformation, we have nothing, except for Eren & co's case who needs a set "goal" and must not be tired to be able to titanmorph. In Eren's case his main source of energy is apparently ... his body, with how he's dead tired after a big transformation and can't transform anymore after a certain time (and his recovery doesn't seem to need sunlight bathing).
Also, the transformation Eren & co is kinda different from the villager's type of transformation ... which is also a complete mystery.
For the underground thing, it's more about restricting their movements than anything else (see Eren and the well).

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Well it is weird. Not saying that is ridiculous or unbelievable but it is weird. Kids that decide to attack and kill thousands of humans, and moreover they were warriors back then? It makes me think that there might be someone behind them who instructed them. Come to think of it, it is implied that Annie is following her father's wish.

Hum, yeah I admit it is indeed weird. But, it can't be helped, they're crazy people after all.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by desrtsku

But as we saw during all those event they likely need to act together for all of their plans to be a success. Berntold and Reiner need to be together to break a wall, Annie can't do anything on her own except calling titans (which is believed what she did during the invasions)
Even the capturing Eren plan, which was an improvisation, required some teaming up.
Bernthold also said during the training camp flashback that he was actually aiming to apply for the police and would rather leave the military force than go anywhere else (thus Reiner too, since he probably wouldn't go anywhere without Bernthold). Logically, it would mean the 3 of them would always be together ... probably the other reason why they needed to be among the top 10. The only reason why they took different ways during this part of the story was likely because it was needed to capture Eren (Reiner and Bernthold looking for the info and Annie doing the job.

Considering that dialog you are mentioning (which is the only time where Berthold speaks for more than a one liner, as far as I remember) indeed it seems that the three of them aimed for the military police initially, which would explain why they were so motivated to be on the top. This would mean that they were trying a different approach than what they previously started five years before.
They probably wanted to get inside the inner wall to attack an objective there directly rather than fight their way from the outside.

Unfortunately the time skip doesn't tell us why and how their attack from five years ago ended. I can't even imagine how the defenders prevented the armored and the colossal titan from breaching more walls.
Either there is some kind of secret weapon or system that they used, or the human-titans themselves couldn't prosecute their attack after seeing the carnage that they were causing. They do seem to be affected by that, we even see Annie saying sorry at one point, although she sounds very hypocritical given what she did later.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

Because that wall was made so titans would aim for a specific place, being the agglomeration of human closest to them. And that's what they did, didn't they? Of course, they can just randomly attack whichever wall they want but that'll just raise the most informed people's suspicions.

That's only partly true. Each of the three walls has four enclosed cities displaced in four opposite directions. Since normal titans are attracted to human, that makes their attacks more predictable and more easy to counter. However that doesn't matter at all with irregular titans, the real reason the colossal and the armored Titan attacked one of those enclosed cities is that even they cannot easily break the walls and need to attack the gates which are weaker.

However since there are four of them from completely opposite sides, they can choose whichever they want.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

When it comes to movement restriction (that one is pretty clear), well, "it varies from individual to individual" they said. Titans need energy to move and their main resource is sunlight. All of them need it but it takes longer for some of them to run out of juice once they don't have access to it.
When it comes to transformation, we have nothing, except for Eren & co's case who needs a set "goal" and must not be tired to be able to titanmorph. In Eren's case his main source of energy is apparently ... his body, with how he's dead tired after a big transformation and can't transform anymore after a certain time (and his recovery doesn't seem to need sunlight bathing).
Also, the transformation Eren & co is kinda different from the villager's type of transformation ... which is also a complete mystery.
For the underground thing, it's more about restricting their movements than anything else (see Eren and the well).

I guess the main reason is for restricting Annie's movement then, though I wonder if they have enough data to be sure that her transformation wouldn't simply destroy everything around her. Eren must have destroyed quite a few tons of rocks when he changed into Titan in that underground tunnel.


Changing argument a bit, what do people think of Berthold's and Reiner's reason? Their actions would be hardly excusable if they were trying to kill the remainder of humanity, but I'm becoming even more convinced that there are other human outposts and that Berthold and Reiner come from one of those.
I think there are several things that hint that. For example the can of sardines written in a different language and possibly even a different writing system. Why would exist such a thing and why would Ymir know how to read that if she always lived in that walled country? I think that Reiner lied when he said that he couldn't read that. The attack to his village we have seen in his flashback must have been in a different place, the same place that Ymir comes from.
Berthold and Reiner also say that they want to return to their village with Eren, but that would hardly make sense if that village was inside wall Rose and I don't think there are humans living inside Wall Maria. The scouting legion would have noticed that. Wherever their village is it must be far enough since the scouting legion never found any trace of that.

From this perspective Berthold's and Reiner's attack wouldn't be an attack against humanity but against their enemy.

If I'm allowed to go on a tangent, I think it might have all started from a conflict between two or more countries. It is possible that that the human outpost Eren lives in is the one responsible for creating titans as biological weapon unleashing them into their enemies territories, but then something went wrong and the titans went out of control. This scenario is supported by the fact that they obviously used titans to create walls and there are people that know about them. This would hint that they can or they could control titans to a certain extent. Given this it wouldn't be surprising if Berthold and Reiner hated them, especially after experiencing a titan attack first hand.
It isn't quite clear how they became capable of controlling their titan power however. There is no doubt at this point that titans are humans that underwent a transformation, but only a few maintain their "humanity". Whatever triggers that is unclear.

The giant ape titan also seems to come from a different place, and he is probably the one who caused Connie's villagers to become titans. It seems that he comes from a place where people learned everything about titans and learned how to control them.

[desrtsku]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Changing argument a bit, what do people think of Berthold's and Reiner's reason? Their actions would be hardly excusable if they were trying to kill the remainder of humanity, but I'm becoming even more convinced that there are other human outposts and that Berthold and Reiner come from one of those.
I think there are several things that hint that. For example the can of sardines written in a different language and possibly even a different writing system. Why would exist such a thing and why would Ymir know how to read that if she always lived in that walled country? I think that Reiner lied when he said that he couldn't read that. The attack to his village we have seen in his flashback must have been in a different place, the same place that Ymir comes from.
Berthold and Reiner also say that they want to return to their village with Eren, but that would hardly make sense if that village was inside wall Rose and I don't think there are humans living inside Wall Maria. The scouting legion would have noticed that. Wherever their village is it must be far enough since the scouting legion never found any trace of that.

From this perspective Berthold's and Reiner's attack wouldn't be an attack against humanity but against their enemy.

If I'm allowed to go on a tangent, I think it might have all started from a conflict between two or more countries. It is possible that that the human outpost Eren lives in is the one responsible for creating titans as biological weapon unleashing them into their enemies territories, but then something went wrong and the titans went out of control. This scenario is supported by the fact that they obviously used titans to create walls and there are people that know about them. This would hint that they can or they could control titans to a certain extent. Given this it wouldn't be surprising if Berthold and Reiner hated them, especially after experiencing a titan attack first hand.
It isn't quite clear how they became capable of controlling their titan power however. There is no doubt at this point that titans are humans that underwent a transformation, but only a few maintain their "humanity". Whatever triggers that is unclear.

The giant ape titan also seems to come from a different place, and he is probably the one who caused Connie's villagers to become titans. It seems that he comes from a place where people learned everything about titans and learned how to control them.

Hai, hai. I can't say anything but agree this time.

[desrtsku]

Sorry for double post, but can't be helped since it's been a week
...
Chap 43 is out.

[felix]

Spoiler for ch43:

I hope we get some explanation to give us some context after this, since it feels like the author is just giving us an asspull after asspull to keep the theme of the manga intact. It's all great and all, but character development aside, it feels like he's tacking us for idiots with all these traitor stories.

Though somehow I fear the point might be that finding out what the whole deal with the titans is = end Shingeki no Kyojin.

Well on positive note, some speculation: maybe "humanity" actually doesn't even exist anymore in the world of Shingeki no Kyojin (given how much the author throws it in our face so much), they're all titans living as humans, and the whole "transformation business" is actually backwards. The ones attacking them are merely the ones who don't approve or who tried and failed to become humans.

[Johnny]

Mikasa should've been made the titan because Eren is just pathetic...

[felix]

Originally Posted by Johnny

Mikasa should've been made the titan because Eren is just pathetic...

Mikasa is way too strong to be made a titan.

[Eisdrache]

Eren's opponents are the armored and the collossal titan. I'm sorry if you expected a deus ex machina but that doesn't happen in this series.

[Johnny]

Nobody asked for an asspull now did they? I believe was what said that's it's tiresome to see him so pathetic all the time and he gets beat no matter who the opponent is. If you're fine with a mediocre protag in this series than more power to you...

[felix]

Originally Posted by Johnny

Nobody asked for an asspull now did they? I believe was what said that's it's tiresome to see him so pathetic all the time and he gets beat no matter who the opponent is. If you're fine with a mediocre protag in this series than more power to you...

Technically he's able to mow down hordes of titans (forgot what the arc was called), the problem is his recent titan opponents are just overpowered as hell.