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Old 2013-03-03, 17:55   Link #2521
sayde
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Originally Posted by Kitsueki View Post
To me, it was a good move, because it had to be done. I'm not confident Unohana can beat Juha Bach, and thats likely where Shunsui's eye is currently, he wants Kenpachi to do it. That's what I believe at least
But if Kenpachi is to take on the big bad, who's going to be left to take on all those other tough guys that had the edge over most of the Captains? It sure would've been nice for the Gotei 13 to still have their own sub-boss still alive to fall back on. Because right now, I'm not convinced anyone among them (minus Kenpachi) is worthy enough to match up against the strongest the sternritters have to offer.

Anyways, I really don't have much else to say on the matter that hasn't been stated already. So I'm not going to respond to the rest of your points. I acknowledge them. And even though I understand the purpose behind Shunsui's decision, I'll never support the decision for as long as Kubo fails to provide an adequate explanation as to why Orihime wasn't viable option this time.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
gotta disagree here. gotei 13 aside, the zero squad will obviously be partaking in this war against the quincies and his healing skills will certainly replace unohana's in that regard. i assume his character is what gave kubo the ability to kill unohana in the first place. it's a direct replacement of the best healer we knew of, for a new, even more badass healer who trained her who we are just now meeting
Yes, but as you yourself noted, that's just THIS war. What about the others that could happen in the future the next time an Aizen level threat appears? There would've been dead captains coming out of the previous war had it not been for Unohana. And that was a war the Zero Squad didn't deem necessary to join in on (since the Gotei 13 still barely won). Those guys only seem to show up after the Gotei 13 has been defeated and the seireitei ends up in ruins. In fact, we don't know if Byuakuya would've even lived long enough to make it to Kirinji's place without Unohana's expertise to keep him alive. So you can't count on Kirinji's healing abilities every time a captain or two ends up being critically injured during a major crisis. Maybe he'll show up, or maybe he won't. Or maybe he'll arrive too late for it to matter (since you no longer have someone as talented as Unohana present to buy some time).
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Old 2013-03-03, 18:06   Link #2522
GDiddy
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Kirinji don't give a shit; he's too busy chillaxing in his hot springs city....same with the other RGs.

And anyone that goes against Bach....or even Blondie....is dead. Doesn't matter if you're RG, or just a regular shinigami...Bach is Ichigo's. Kenny might be able to handle Blondie or other VRs...and maybe Renji can handle some lower levels, depending on the outcome of his training...but anyone else?

They're dead pretty much. Or will be at least in Byakuya's situation.
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Old 2013-03-03, 18:36   Link #2523
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
Yes, but as you yourself noted, that's just THIS war. What about the others that could happen in the future the next time an Aizen level threat appears?
unohana wasnt exactly helpful in fending off aizen. and she was only able to heal the injured because aizen didnt kill them for some unknown stupid reason. also, i think kubo only cares about this war since this is the end of the series. it sucks not being able to talk about the story logically, but kubo has made it impossible. who will be the go-to healer this arc? kirinji. who will be the goto healer in the future beyond bleach? some 4th squad member who randomly got to be as good as is needed at healing i guess

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There would've been dead captains coming out of the previous war had it not been for Unohana. And that was a war the Zero Squad didn't deem necessary to join in on (since the Gotei 13 still barely won).
zero squad must have known that kubo had no intention of killing anyone good in the arrancar arc. i know it sounds silly of me to say it like that, but it's true. aizen was so far above the captains that he could have easily killed them. he was beating them 4 at a time for pity's sake. the only reason he didnt kill them was because he didnt want to for no reason. and the overall reason was because kubo didnt want him to. it's illogical and stupid but true

i know making an argument like this makes it impossible to debate the issue, but when it comes to logic in bleach, i just dont see it. fight outcomes are all at kubo's whim regardless of whether or not the exact same thing happened prior with different results
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Old 2013-03-03, 20:04   Link #2524
sayde
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
unohana wasnt exactly helpful in fending off aizen.
That's not really a fair thing to say coming from someone who clearly acknowledges how illogical Kubo's made the plot play out at times. I mean its not like she was a given fair opportunity to at least try to be helpful in that regard. She was the designated healer from the start of the war till the end of the war.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
and she was only able to heal the injured because aizen didnt kill them for some unknown stupid reason.
Yes. Aizen did leave them barely alive. But she still deserves credit for keeping critical injuries from turning into fatal ones.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
zero squad must have known that kubo had no intention of killing anyone good in the arrancar arc.
I'm not sure that's the case. Just the fact that these guys showed up AFTER the battle had been lost and the CC died says a lot IMO. They don't move unless the spirit king gives the order. And the spirit king doesn't appear to give the order for as long as a viable force currently remains to challenge the opposing threat. In the previous arc, I'm guessing he was somehow able to see that Ichigo grew to become the answer to the only enemy remaining--Aizen. However in this particular situation, there was literally no one left to turn to that could contend with the big bads--except for the Zero Squad.

On a final note, you don't have to discuss Bleach logically with me anymore if you don't want to. (I know I certainly understand your reasons for not wanting to do so.) However, there will be times when I will occasionally look at the series from a logical point of view for the sake of calling out Kubo on what I think are legitimate gripes when I feel the need to vent (like now). So feel free to ignore these moments of mine.
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Old 2013-03-03, 20:12   Link #2525
GDiddy
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I just vent because this was the first series I ever seriously loved..like wrote fanfic for. And at one point, Rukia, Yoruichi and Yachiru were among my favorite female characters.

To see Kubo destroy it on a weekly basis makes me rage...but at least with Isshin's backstory coming up, the one thing I've wanted to see FOR YEARS is finally here.
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Old 2013-03-03, 22:28   Link #2526
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
I mean its not like she was a given fair opportunity to at least try to be helpful in that regard. She was the designated healer from the start of the war till the end of the war.
vs an opponent that isshin, yoruichi and urahara couldn't beat together? i'm sorry, but she had no chance vs aizen

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I'm not sure that's the case. Just the fact that these guys showed up AFTER the battle had been lost and the CC died says a lot IMO. They don't move unless the spirit king gives the order.
it seems to me that the SK gives the order to dispatch the RG if and when the CC dies. While the CC lives, SS should be able to defend itself.

Quote:
And the spirit king doesn't appear to give the order for as long as a viable force currently remains to challenge the opposing threat.
i prefer death of the CC since it's simple, but it could be this viable force reason too.

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In the previous arc, I'm guessing he was somehow able to see that Ichigo grew to become the answer to the only enemy remaining--Aizen.
i see it more as yamai-jii, then when he got beat it was gin, then when gin got beat ichigo had trained enough to be a viable force again with FGT

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So feel free to ignore these moments of mine.
heh no worries, it's fun
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Old 2013-03-03, 22:37   Link #2527
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
of course there is a compelling reason. SS is run by idiots. it always has been and always will be. i dont think there is 1 instance yet where SS has made a logical decision about anything. i dont think kubo did this intentionally, but at least he is keeping it real and not making SS smart all of a sudden
I'm starting to think that Aizen never needed to make illusions to begin with if he wanted to manipulate them

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Originally Posted by GDiddy View Post
Maybe it's me....but damn does the SS seem even more idiotic so far this arc.
It already felt dumb to wait for Ginjo to betray Ichigo to give him powers even though they were assigned to kill him but...
four words: Do not use bankai!

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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
Yes. Aizen did leave them barely alive. But she still deserves credit for keeping critical injuries from turning into fatal ones.
That could explain why Hinamori, Sarugaki and Hitsugaya managed to survive.
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Old 2013-03-03, 23:07   Link #2528
sayde
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
vs an opponent that isshin, yoruichi and urahara couldn't beat together? i'm sorry, but she had no chance vs aizen
Depends on when they could've fought. There's more than enough evidence to suggest that both Isshin and Urahara could stand up to Aizen on 1-on-1 terms just fine before he started transforming. With that said, I believe Unohana vs Aizen's base form could've been a fair and even match-up--especially since she came the closest to seeing through his illusions, even before his ability was made public knowledge. These recent chapters have even helped support the old suspicion of Aizen fleeing from Unohana in C46 because of her strength. It's only after the transformations began that Aizen became god-tier to everyone minus Ichigo.
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heh no worries, it's fun
Glad we can continue to keep things civil then.
I've got nothing to say against your other points either because I agreed or because I find no fault with our difference of perspectives on certain issues.
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Old 2013-03-03, 23:32   Link #2529
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Originally Posted by Alchemist007 View Post
Maybe I'm forgetting something but why can't he have just been a captain?
Someone would have mentioned it if he'd been a Captain any time in the last few centuries. If he was zero squad it would explain a lot more, like his insane power level for one.
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Old 2013-03-04, 00:33   Link #2530
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
Depends on when they could've fought. ... I believe Unohana vs Aizen's base form could've been a fair and even match-up--especially since she came the closest to seeing through his illusions, even before his ability was made public knowledge. These recent chapters have even helped support the old suspicion of Aizen fleeing from Unohana in C46 because of her strength. It's only after the transformations began that Aizen became god-tier to everyone minus Ichigo.
yea, that falls under SS being idiots and kubo doing whatever he wants in the face of logic. 2 basic axioms of bleach. unohana didnt attack aizen when he was mortal for the same reason gin didn't. because they have SS's illogical tendencies and kubo didnt want aizen stopped at that time.

but we are talking about the arrancar arc here in which aizen had already integrated the hyougoku and was immortal and no matter how many times you killed him, he kept coming back in a more evolved state. so at that time, unohana had nothing on him
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Old 2013-03-04, 01:08   Link #2531
Alchemist007
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Originally Posted by Langus View Post
Someone would have mentioned it if he'd been a Captain any time in the last few centuries. If he was zero squad it would explain a lot more, like his insane power level for one.
Unless they're in on it (like Urahara or Ryuuken), or haven't seen him. I'm not sure who even caught a glimpse of him during the Aizen fight.
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Old 2013-03-04, 01:23   Link #2532
quigonkenny
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
And if Kubo's got any sense, he'll reveal Inoue to be nearby with a good excuse as to why Shunsui didn't want to let either Ken or Unohana know her role in their training session--which wouldn't be that difficult to explain.
This would actually make sense given Shunsui's personality. He pits Unohana and Zaraki against each other, giving them both the idea that it's a fight to the death, so they go all out, then has Orihime secretly bring her back afterwards so he can bring her out of hiding at a later point as a trump card. Yama-jii was nothing if not direct. Shunsui...not so much.

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Originally Posted by bonsobon View Post
Suprised no one has yet mentioned the confirmation that the Kurosaki name did indeed come from Masaki, which explains Ichigo's non recognition in Soul Society.
Kinda begs the question as to what Isshin's family name was beforehand...

...Not. It was obviously Shiba. Kubo's given far too many hints toward that end already.
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Old 2013-03-04, 01:40   Link #2533
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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
This would actually make sense given Shunsui's personality. He pits Unohana and Zaraki against each other, giving them both the idea that it's a fight to the death, so they go all out, then has Orihime secretly bring her back afterwards so he can bring her out of hiding at a later point as a trump card. Yama-jii was nothing if not direct. Shunsui...not so much.


Kinda begs the question as to what Isshin's family name was beforehand...

...Not. It was obviously Shiba. Kubo's given far too many hints toward that end already.
hmph it was kenpachi obviously! well on that note it would be strange for him to not be a shiba. everything points in that direction atleast.
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Old 2013-03-04, 18:04   Link #2534
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by dragonmeister View Post
Perhaps it helps him restore the balance to his soul, or something? As the chapter's "Everything but the rain" (although that was also the name of chapter 512, which seems kinda lazy), it could be a way of stopping the rain in his soul and allowing him to come to terms with himself, so that he can fix himself and his bankai? That sounds like the sort of crap Kubo would come up with, tbh
Yep. Supposedly Ichigo already "stopped the rain" in his soul at the end of Soul Society arc, but he still has parent issues. Also, he still doesn't know he's part Quincy. That's a whole different set of powers to tap into. Cue training with Ryuuken.

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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
And if Kubo's got any sense, he'll reveal Inoue to be nearby with a good excuse as to why Shunsui didn't want to let either Ken or Unohana know her role in their training session--which wouldn't be that difficult to explain.
I see little to no chance of that happening. This wasn't Unohana sacrificing herself out of a sense of duty to Social Society, this is how she wanted to die. The only way she wanted to die, I imagine.

But I theorize that Unohana dying--and staying dead--is important to Kenpachi's development. Sounds weird, but I think Unohana was like a pacifier to him or a security blanket. He admired her and the thought of an opponent who would always be there to offer him the fight of his life comforted him. When faced with the fact that he could lose that, he limited his power rather than admit he was above her.

In order to realize you don't need your blanky and patsy anymore you need them taken away. If Unohana continued to live, Kenpachi might end up convincing himself he didn't really win, and could easily slip back to the habit of limiting his powers again.

Shunsui and Unohana know this, which is why it was useless to have a healer on hand. Unohana could heal Kenpachi as much as needed, but once Kenpachi unlocked his power again, Unohana had to stay dead for him to maintain it.
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Old 2013-03-04, 18:33   Link #2535
sayde
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I see little to no chance of that happening. This wasn't Unohana sacrificing herself out of a sense of duty to Social Society, this is how she wanted to die.
...And she got what she wanted. Should she be revived, I'd be very disappointed in her character if she expressed disappointment over not staying dead. The purpose was achieved. She was killed and has officially and properly passed on her title as Kenpachi to its rightful owner. So if she were to be revived, I'd like to think she'd see it as a rebirth of sorts and a chance to finally move on with her life through leaving her past behind.

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But I theorize that Unohana dying--and staying dead--is important to Kenpachi's development. Sounds weird, but I think Unohana was like a pacifier to him or a security blanket. He admired her and the thought of an opponent who would always be there to offer him the fight of his life comforted him. When faced with the fact that he could lose that, he limited his power rather than admit he was above her.

In order to realize you don't need your blanky and patsy anymore you need them taken away. If Unohana continued to live, Kenpachi might end up convincing himself he didn't really win, and could easily slip back to the habit of limiting his powers again.

Shunsui and Unohana know this, which is why it was useless to have a healer on hand. Unohana could heal Kenpachi as much as needed, but once Kenpachi unlocked his power again, Unohana had to stay dead for him to maintain it.
That's not something I'm willing to buy into. I mean if an infant has truly learned to go without the object he/she needs to feel at peace with, then reintroducing that thing to him/her shouldn't result in a reliance on it once more. That's to say, the infant should instead have learned to continue on without it (even if it is a constant presence). If we want, we could even compare this to a former smoker or drinker who's sworn off cigarettes or alcohol for good. If they've truly learned to move past their dependency on such things, then they shouldn't succumb to any potential temptations as they arise.

So for as long as Zaraki's convinced she's dead and has truly learned and come to grips with the fact that he doesn't need her anymore, then there should be no reason for him to revert back to his old self-inhibiting behavior should he unexpectedly get Unohana back at a later time. Otherwise that would mean he hasn't really learned a thing and his recent character development would be revealed to have never truly happened in the first place. Come to think of it, Unohana's revival could actually be one of the best ways to confirm his character's development on the issue once and for all.

Last edited by sayde; 2013-03-04 at 19:13.
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Old 2013-03-04, 21:26   Link #2536
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
...And she got what she wanted. Should she be revived, I'd be very disappointed in her character if she expressed disappointment over not staying dead.
Yeah but she's done... it's like finishing a race. There's no point to keep running after the finish line. When it's through it's time to rest (don't mention "what about the next race?", it's retirement. )

Quote:
That's not something I'm willing to buy into. I mean if an infant has truly learned to go without the object he/she needs to feel at peace with, then reintroducing that thing to him/her shouldn't result in a reliance on it once more. That's to say, the infant should instead have learned to continue on without it (even if it is a constant presence). If we want, we could even compare this to a former smoker or drinker who's sworn off cigarettes or alcohol for good. If they've truly learned to move past their dependency on such things, then they shouldn't succumb to any potential temptations as they arise.
True, but it takes time. You don't congratulate a recovering alcoholic by handing him a cold brew, even if he has taken the steps to truly be free of it.

Zaraki surpassing his idol was only truly confirmed to him by her death. Because he never has the prospect of facing her again, he won't limit his power in anticipation of fighting her again. Until he faces these new threats, the finality of her death needs to remain. After that, well yeah, he shouldn't be dependent on her anymore. But by then it's kinda pointless to bring Unohana back just 'cause...
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Old 2013-03-04, 23:50   Link #2537
sayde
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Yeah but she's done... it's like finishing a race. There's no point to keep running after the finish line. When it's through it's time to rest (don't mention "what about the next race?", it's retirement. )
ehh...I guess. Its hard for me to see this in a comparable manner to a race. Ever since her big secret has been revealed, she came off to me as someone living two lives--the one life that ended unresolved and in shame and the other life as the #1 medic and supporting pillar of strength among the Gotei 13. Now that her obligations to her former life have been fulfilled and have come to a fitting conclusion, I see nothing wrong with her being able to continue to live out her second life fulfilling her other obligations at a time when the Gotei 13 can use all the strength they can get.

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True, but it takes time. You don't congratulate a recovering alcoholic by handing him a cold brew, even if he has taken the steps to truly be free of it.

Zaraki surpassing his idol was only truly confirmed to him by her death. Because he never has the prospect of facing her again, he won't limit his power in anticipation of fighting her again. Until he faces these new threats, the finality of her death needs to remain.
Point taken. It's why I've expressed that I'd be okay with the prospect of Shunsui keeping a supposed revival by Inoue a secret until such a time proves tactically wise. Because perhaps he does need a bit to fully accept his loss and to overcome it. And perhaps he does need to wait until he's matched up against new worthy opponents before that happens. But there's no good reason for her to have to stay dead once all those conditions have been met.
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After that, well yeah, he shouldn't be dependent on her anymore. But by then it's kinda pointless to bring Unohana back just 'cause...
We might never see eye-to-eye here. Having her return at a later time could still prove extremely beneficial for the Gotei 13 so long as it happens at an opportune moment (as oppose to the story's conclusion when it would no longer matter). Because as far as I can see, these Quincies already appear to have plenty of tough guys that seem like they hold a sizable advantage over the remaining captains. And to make matters worse, Kubo's confirmed that they'll only grow in numbers. So I'd hardly consider Unohana's hypothetical return to the plot to be pointless. Nor would it have to be done in a way that makes it seem like she came back "just 'cause..." since she still has plenty to contribute. But to see her go out like this...it's just so...stupid. I'd have an easier time accepting her (permanent) demise if she died against an enemy as oppose to getting degraded to nothing more than a stepping stone for a mere supporting character's benefit.

Jeez...not even Ichigo has needed to kill off one of the good guys indefinitely just for a powerup.

Also, I just had a random thought. We keep going on and on about how Unohana's immediate revival could potentially prove detrimental for Kenpachi's growth. But couldn't it actually turn out to have the complete opposite effect? I mean if his underlying fear this entire time was the thought of not having a worthy rival anymore upon her death, then one could think that he'd have nothing to worry about anymore if he knew someone could just revive her as much as was necessary. That's to say, he could feel free to go all out against her with absolute impunity since he wouldn't have to fear the prospect of never being able to fight her again just because he didn't hold back.

Last edited by sayde; 2013-03-05 at 00:09.
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Old 2013-03-05, 14:22   Link #2538
itachi-san314
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I'm not exactly buying into the addiction angle for unohana not returning. but i do buy the reason that she wanted to die this way and that's it. because she was a healer and a pacifist for the bulk of the time we've known her character, it may be difficult to see her for who she truly is: a blood thirsty warrior. warriors of this caliber always want to die fighting a strong opponent. it's part of their narrative that they die this way in many stories. someone like her wouldn't want to come back to life and i think SS will honor that ideal. however, i agree that it is stupid...
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Old 2013-03-05, 18:34   Link #2539
Sabaku Kyu
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So I'd hardly consider Unohana's hypothetical return to the plot to be pointless. Nor would it have to be done in a way that makes it seem like she came back "just 'cause..." since she still has plenty to contribute. But to see her go out like this...it's just so...stupid.
Yeah, and Yamamoto still has plenty to contribute. Let's bring him back. Ulquiorria was starting to see the light there towards the end..he could become a good guy and fight. Let's bring him back to life too! And what about Gin?

Rezz's for everyone, yay!

I'm not mocking you here. It's not that I wouldn't want to see Unohana live to play a more active role, it's just that I thought her ending was written in such a way that seemed unmistakably final. Bringing her back would seem very forced to me now, though logically it could easily happen.

Quote:
Also, I just had a random thought. We keep going on and on about how Unohana's immediate revival could potentially prove detrimental for Kenpachi's growth. But couldn't it actually turn out to have the complete opposite effect? I mean if his underlying fear this entire time was the thought of not having a worthy rival anymore upon her death, then one could think that he'd have nothing to worry about anymore if he knew someone could just revive her as much as was necessary.
I don't think so. Because his fear is not killing her, but losing his ultimate opponent. While Unohana lives, Kenpachi finds a way to convince himself she's a worthy adversary. He does that by limiting his power though he doesn't realize it.

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I'm not exactly buying into the addiction angle for unohana not returning..
....

Not like a chemical addiction, no. Kenpachi put Unohana on a pedestal, he idolized her. She became representative of his ultimate challenge. And for someone who loves the thrill of battle more than anything, he became attached to that idea. Childhood memory. Nostalgia. He needs to let go of those things permanently. But he's stubborn. He never even realized he was limiting his power and he'd probably tell anyone who mentioned it to f**k off. Still I don't think he would let go if Unohana lived, he'd temper his power again. But that's me.

I can't make sense of Kubo's trolling, but I can try :P
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Old 2013-03-05, 20:34   Link #2540
sayde
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Yeah, and Yamamoto still has plenty to contribute. Let's bring him back. Ulquiorria was starting to see the light there towards the end..he could become a good guy and fight. Let's bring him back to life too! And what about Gin?

Rezz's for everyone, yay!
At least all those aforementioned characters had ample time to fully show off everything they could do before dying against extremely relevant characters under circumstances that felt far less anti-climactic.

Unohana didn't die against a sworn enemy she hated during a battle where she was genuinely trying to end someones life for good. She died against a long time rival who one could argue she loved in a sick twisted sense. Despite the fact that she's been a part of this series for a very long time, once again, her only purpose turned out to be a stepping stone for someone else's improvement. And to top it off, we really didn't get to see much in the process. It all happened so fast that I think the only thing we learned about her combat style is that she's extremely strong and skilled with a sword. I don't even get what her bankai does TBH.

My point here is that Unohana doesn't just have more she could potentially contribute to the plot (as far as the war effort is concerned). She should also have more to contribute to the entertainment value of future battles as well. Take Byukuya for instance. A lot of fans seemed saddened, but yet okay with the prospect of seeing him gone for good because he's overused. As far as we know, we've seen everything he could do during battle time-and-time again. It felt like there was nothing left to show and therefore, it felt like he contributed almost nothing new to the battles he was in as of late.

On the other hand, Unohana should still have things left in her skill set to reveal or elaborate on at the very least--whether it be an appropriate demonstration of top-tier kido usage or an adequate opportunity to put her bankai to use where we get to understand exactly what it does.
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
I'm not mocking you here. It's not that I wouldn't want to see Unohana live to play a more active role, it's just that I thought her ending was written in such a way that seemed unmistakably final.
I wouldn't argue against that either, as I can certainly understand why it comes off that way. However, I still don't think that makes it right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
I don't think so. Because his fear is not killing her, but losing his ultimate opponent. While Unohana lives, Kenpachi finds a way to convince himself she's a worthy adversary. He does that by limiting his power though he doesn't realize it.
Fine then.

Last edited by sayde; 2013-03-05 at 20:47.
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