2013-03-13, 21:43 | Link #4602 | |||
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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Random Wanderer, if Sumeragi ignored my post about the experiments Top Gear and Mythbusters did, which are readily available on Youtube with a minimum of searching, he's going to ignore you too.
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Also, you don't seem to realise that the US is institutionally obsessed with safety during exercises. Particularly an amphibious landing operation, where there is great risk of loss of life. Hell, recruits have died in river crossings, which generated huge scandal and revamp of safety rules. Sacrifices to win a war, where the cause is just and the need is dire, is one thing. A needless sacrifice to hold on to a trophy does not compare and is not in the same league. Quote:
Besides, when all is said and done, if you're going to go down that path, I'd point out that you're the one who appears more the bigot than the rest of us. Quote:
No, I suppose you don't.
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2013-03-13, 21:51 | Link #4603 | |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dai Korai Teikoku
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I'll get back to the other stuff, but this first:
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This isn't an argument that has been done this once. It's a reoccurring one which will not stop unless those certain people stop with the fussing. I can live with disagreements but I will not let any one-sided condemnation go on just because the majority thinks one way. |
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2013-03-13, 22:02 | Link #4604 | |
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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I myself understand Shiho's position. I can see where she's coming from, and can guess to how she came about her position. I understand that she feels she has a duty as the head of the school to carry on the precepts of Nishizumi-ryu. I also disagree wholeheartedly with it. Is Shiho bloodthirsty? No, she's very calm in her approach. Is she ruthless? Yes, the mindset of victory at all costs as purported by Nishizumi-ryu can lead down that way. Is she a bitch? No, because I have had female dogs, and I must say they were all much more pleasant that Shiho was. Here's the thing though: you're trying to play the aggrieved party here, but your previous statements indicate that your current protestations to the contrary, you do support Shiho's line of thinking. Hell, you all but said that if the girls couldn't open the hatch, it was proof of their incompetence! And on the relative dangers of senshado, note what Miho says in the 10.5 OVA: that while the carbon lining protects the interior of the tank from shell penetration, it does not mean that senshado is truly safe. Note the fires and the out of control disabled tank in their early matches.
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2013-03-13, 22:06 | Link #4605 | |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dai Korai Teikoku
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2013-03-13, 22:14 | Link #4606 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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Okay, basic question here: What would make a tank hatch different from a car door in a submerged condition?
Size? Seals? Because I am not seeing a difference in terms of one's ability to open a hatch under water verse openning a car door under water. Anyone with real tank experiance present? Any sort of training for being sunk in water? Anything that doesn't involve explosives or motorized hatches, cause I don't think they have those on a mid-war Panzer III.
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2013-03-13, 22:29 | Link #4607 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dai Korai Teikoku
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Split hatch. Those are far easier to open even when under pressure than either a car door or the modern day solid hatch, especially when we consider the fact that WW2 split hatches do not seal shut. The sealed solid hatch came into being as a countermeasure against NBC battlefields.
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2013-03-13, 22:29 | Link #4608 | |
Nyaaan~~
Join Date: Feb 2006
Age: 40
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This is a rehash of a discussion had over 100 pages back. Move on people. That said, these other comments, particularly calling Shiho horrible vulgar, nasty and other things, obviously portrays an emotional response and an opinion based on personal values -- attempting to hide that behind a veneer of objectivity isn't convincing. You can agree or disagree, cool, but people need to reflect on their own objectivity.
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Last edited by willx; 2013-03-13 at 23:05. |
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2013-03-13, 22:36 | Link #4609 | ||
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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2013-03-13, 23:26 | Link #4610 | |
is this so?
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Gradius Home World
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Would have given you a +rep if the system was still active. Group pic
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2013-03-14, 00:35 | Link #4611 | |
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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Whether or not the hatch could be opened is a side note. The main issue is a clash between a mindset that places priority on victory at all costs, that would sacrifice crew members to hold on to a winner's trophy, versus a mindset that emphasises safety over victory in a field excercise, sacrificing victory for the safety of the team. Also, I wouldn't call Shiho vulgar; she's quite polite, afterall. I do submit, however, that her school's mindset, paradigm and principles would encourage a rather ruthless mindset. But this is my opinion.
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2013-03-14, 00:40 | Link #4612 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dai Korai Teikoku
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That happens to be the main issue here. The circumstances point to Miho needlessly engaging in a rescue that was not needed in the first place (and therefore, "halt the exercise and rescue the people" does not even apply, and would not apply in reality), and this means that Miho made a grave judgement mistake that cost victory needlessly. Trying to dilute the discussion to a dichotomy of safety or victory is the wrong way to approach the issue.
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2013-03-14, 00:51 | Link #4613 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Sumeragi, has taken the position that the hatches should be quite easy to open, which IIRC is new - I don't think it was there in the debate in P.43-45. However, even if that is true, it doesn't change the canon observation that apparently no one was even trying with any success. So either it is harder than she thinks it is or they are otherwise incapacitated. However, having decided the hatches are easy to open, she is now very hard pressed to say that Miho's help would be ineffective. At best she can insist it is un-necessary. On the other hand, if we assume the hatches are unopenable, then you are right Miho can't help. But we don't know she didn't call for help, and even if we did, it would still be excusable in the short time frame, and no worse than a mistake, not some fundamental human flaw. Besides, the lag tank commander could have rectified that mistake, plus those tanks do have status and positioning transmitters so the rescue team should be well aware what is happening, so a call for help may actually be redundant. It is only their ability to reach that remote site in time that's dubious - they are shown to be pretty efficient, but this is a hard site to reach. If we assume Miho's actions have maximum objectivity, then the difficulty of hatch opening and escape would be marginal and her help could be the difference - in that case, can you really fault her for trying? In our modern societal values, unless the chances of her having a positive influence on the odds is extremely close to nil, morals say the attempt should be made. Quote:
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Now you are on that scene. For the first few seconds you think "No sweat. They have a split hatch and they know how." You get on with trying to locate the enemy tanks. I'll grant you this. If you are absolutely convinced of this, it may be a reasonable decision (from your viewpoint) to keep fighting and leave your tank to fend for itself. Anyway, a few seconds later, you realize that what you expect to be happening is ... not. And there is no sign it will happen if you wait. What do you propose as the correct action? |
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2013-03-14, 01:07 | Link #4614 | |
Secret Society BLANKET
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 3 times the passion of normal flamenco
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The only difference I would know of in opening a car door from a tank hatch is that tank hatches swivel upwards, and so more force is needed to force them open relative to car doors that swing sideward. A more pertinent threat to exiting a tank than the actual hatches though is the internal arrangement of a tank. Many tanks as you would know are cramped, and full of equipment that can bar your path towards the hatches. Many tanks do have individual hatches for each crew member, but the tank's tight fit would still make extraction difficult, and especially so if you're on the verge of drowning underwater.
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2013-03-14, 01:24 | Link #4615 | |
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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As I see things, your essential paradigm is that whatever Miho did was needless, correct? Bit of a Catch-22 you've placed her in. Whereas I interpret this as a clash between the two paradigms. Also, you still haven't come back to me on how you don't consider a tank falling into a river, being washed away and being flooded, is not life threatening at all. Then what would you consider directly life threatening?
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2013-03-14, 01:28 | Link #4616 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dai Korai Teikoku
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@ arkhangelsk: You're forgetting the most important aspect of all "submerged vehicle" problems. Basically, modern cars/tanks seal the doors/hatches, causing a vacuum which helps water pressure be an effective barrier to escaping.
Also, what gyration and disorientation? Checked Episode 7 again, and it was one of the more smoother slide into a river I've seen. It was certainly a situation where any adequately trained tank crew could have escaped without too much a fuss. As for your scenario: If things went to that extreme, obviously the match itself would have been halted. If it wasn't, I would be the one to go and attempt a rescue. @ Wild Goose: Frankly I didn't even notice you until you called out directly to me. My "bigoted" comment was mostly focused on Random Wanderer, who was one of those that went with the bloodthirsty/sociopathy line. If I was shooting the gun a bit too early, I apologize for the fact. |
2013-03-14, 01:47 | Link #4617 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I'm sure it's possible to design a door that opens underwater. Just have it pivot around its center instead of the side and you're done. I have my doubt on a Panzer having such a door, but what do I know of tank design? |
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2013-03-14, 01:55 | Link #4619 | |
Secret Society BLANKET
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 3 times the passion of normal flamenco
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AFAIK the only way to make a car door that can open underwater is to make it a powered door. I'm not sure what you mean by "pivot around its center" though? Can't imagine a door being like that. And there were also a good portion of the crews that drowned though, so it's not quite as easy as it sounds.
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Tags |
comedy, gup, original anime, slice of life, sports, tanks |
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